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User avatar
By Presvias
#15034918
1. I'm a pragmatist and not a tribalistic, infighting & squabbly Remainer. So you got that completely wrong for starters.

(I'm 100% against leaving without a deal - nothing else, every other option is preferable to that).

I'll leave you to your Leaver tribalism. Your single argument in favour of leaving without a deal is "I'm confident".

You haven't got one shred of evidence that proves that NDBrexit will be ANY good for the country..I can simply point you to a WTO head, the IMF, the UK govt's own reports + the OBR, multiple experts, the LSE...everything.

And you even managed to claim that the UK avoided a double dip recession...words fail. Did you look at what happened in 2012?

The UK does not compare favourably with the EU over long term trends as I pointed out, did you even compare the graphs to the ones I posted? Your argument has been utterly shredded, but you're claiming you've won out.

There's therefore no point in further debate with you. If you won't even look at long term trends and compare them, then why should others continue to debate you?

(By the way, just about every claim in that huffing post article is pish. It starts off with EU politicians making out that 'western civilisation will collapse', what a pile of scheisse.

“Why is it so dangerous? Because no one can foresee what the long-term consequences would be,” Tusk said. “As a historian I fear that Brexit could be the beginning of the destruction of not only the EU but also of western political civilisation in its entirety.”

Understand the difference?)
By Atlantis
#15034924
Presvias wrote:You haven't got one shred of evidence that proves that NDBrexit will be ANY good for the country..


@Kaiserschmarrn is a wannabe Anglo from down-under. She doesn't give a f*ck about your country. All she cares about is to collate and spread anti-EU propaganda. If the UK is thrown into a major crisis as a result of a NDBrexit, that is no concern of her's as long as she can vent her anti-EU hatred.
User avatar
By ingliz
#15034949
Atlantis wrote:She doesn't give a f*ck about your country

@Kaiserschmarrn

In truth, I don't give a fuck either... Why should I? It is not my country. As long as my narrow financial interest is satisfied, a 'catastrophic No-deal' wallow in your own shit exit suits me fine.


:)
User avatar
By SolarCross
#15034951
ingliz wrote:
In truth, I don't give a fuck either. Why should I? It is not my country. As long as my narrow financial interest is satisfied, a 'catastrophic No-deal' wallow in your own shit exit suits me fine.

:)

No one cares about your narrow financial interests.
User avatar
By ingliz
#15034954
SolarCross wrote:No one cares

Luckily, the EU does.

Financial Times, 8 April 2019 wrote:Michel Barnier has laid down heavy conditions for the UK to enter talks with Brussels after a no-deal Brexit, saying the Irish border, citizens’ rights and money will have to be settled before negotiations on future ties with the EU.


* My emphasis


:)
By Atlantis
#15034959
ingliz wrote:@Kaiserschmarrn

In truth, I don't give a fuck either... Why should I? It is not my country. As long as my narrow financial interest is satisfied, a 'catastrophic No-deal' wallow in your own shit exit suits me fine.


Contrary to what @Heisenberg seems to believe, I do care about the well being of people in in the UK. That's in fact why I have kept on explaining the negative impacts of Brexit. The real traitors are those who want to push the UK over the no-deal cliff. Having said this, my first loyalty is towards the EU.
By snapdragon
#15034975
Atlantis wrote:@Kaiserschmarrn is a wannabe Anglo from down-under. She doesn't give a f*ck about your country. All she cares about is to collate and spread anti-EU propaganda. If the UK is thrown into a major crisis as a result of a NDBrexit, that is no concern of her's as long as she can vent her anti-EU hatred.


Most of the posters on here don't actually live here and so have a very poor understanding of what is actually happening , day to day.

They often get their information from the gutter press, which, to be fair, so do most leavers.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed a point of view, but they should be honest.

What is in it for them? How does Brexit affect them?

Why are they arguing the way they are?

I have a sneaking suspicion that some of them have been watching too much Downton Abbey etc.

I am a rabid remainer.

I didn't used to be. I thought as long as we got a fair deal, then that would be acceptable.
Not good, but okay. I'd rather stay, but We could live with that.

That is not possible.

It's Bino or nothing - and both mean years and years and years of more negotiations and debates that go nowhere.
User avatar
By ingliz
#15034991
SolarCross wrote:And we think we can find a way forward

Strange way of going about it...

Guardian 20 September 2019 wrote:Downing Street’s secrecy over its Brexit proposals has caused a fresh rupture in the negotiations in Brussels, a leaked email reveals, as EU officials warned that the talks are “going backwards”.

The row was sparked by a British demand that the EU’s negotiating team treat a long-awaited cache of documents outlining the UK’s latest ideas as “Her Majesty’s government property”.

Whitehall told the European commission team that the three “confidential” papers should not be distributed to Brexit delegates representing the EU’s 27 other member states.

Sources in Brussels said that in response the point was made forcefully to the British negotiating team that all proposals would need to be made available for the EU’s capitals to analyse for talks to progress.

With just six weeks to go until 31 October when the UK is due to leave the EU, there is despair in Brussels at the state of the talks, with the latest ideas seen as “more of the same” from Downing Street.


:lol:
By Rich
#15034993
snapdragon wrote:Most of the posters on here don't actually live here and so have a very poor understanding of what is actually happening , day to day.

They often get their information from the gutter press, which, to be fair, so do most leavers.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed a point of view, but they should be honest.

What is in it for them? How does Brexit affect them?

Why are they arguing the way they are?

I'm disgusted by the hypocrisy of many of them. They complain that Britain will no longer be a democracy. Well that's good right? Haven't they told us over and over again, that its wonderful that America is a Republic and not a Democracy. Well then lets back a European Republic over a British monarchist Democracy.

They whine on about a phantom EU Army, that if ever it does exist, probably won't be able to punch its way out of a a paper bag. What about demanding the abolition of the US Federal Armed Forces? What about abolishing the US single currency? And instead of whinging on about the EU fighting its corner over article 50, how about amending the US constitution to actually include an article 50 right of succession.

The EU is a paragon of decentralisation and localist virtue. When is the US Federal government going to allow the States to make their own marriage laws, rather than being set by the unelected centralising bureaucrats of the American Supreme Court?
User avatar
By SolarCross
#15034997
Rich wrote:I'm disgusted by the hypocrisy of many of them. They complain that Britain will no longer be a democracy. Well that's good right? Haven't they told us over and over again, that its wonderful that America is a Republic and not a Democracy. Well then lets back a European Republic over a British monarchist Democracy.

They whine on about a phantom EU Army, that if ever it does exist, probably won't be able to punch its way out of a a paper bag. What about demanding the abolition of the US Federal Armed Forces? What about abolishing the US single currency? And instead of whinging on about the EU fighting its corner over article 50, how about amending the US constitution to actually include an article 50 right of succession.

The EU is a paragon of decentralisation and localist virtue. When is the US Federal government going to allow the States to make their own marriage laws, rather than being set by the unelected centralising bureaucrats of the American Supreme Court?


You are not really comparing apples with apples. The US is old compared with the EU. The EU clearly is aiming to become what the US is now but we were not sold on that back when we joined. When we joined it was just supposed to be a free trade zone, or common market.

Remainers are stuck in past fearing for losing the EU as it used to be. Brexiteers are looking at the future, at what it is trying to become.
User avatar
By Nonsense
#15034999
[quote="Presvias"]No, people elect governments largely because of the party's leaders.

You're disputing a simple self evident truth.

Nonsense-

Erh! No, they vote in a government, according to the policies that appeal to them.

Maybe your version is not quite as 'truthful' as you portray it.


..Indeed ;))


Ah you didn't get the reference then?

Enlighten yourself..

[b]Nonsense-


I think that you ought to consider becoming more 'enlightened' yourself, your ignorance is now in full display. :knife:

https://mobile.twitter.com/sturdyalex/status/1169664123745054727

Nothing to do with 'indigenous' or non-indigenous folks, but I'm not sure why you even brung that up?

And yes I am a fan of old Attlee style values. That should have been implicit in my previous posts? It doesn't mean I'm an old labour zealot, or a massive Corbynhead though.


Nonsense-

It was brought up because it was directly analogous to the Link's content, indiginous people were left in no doubt that certain migrant areas were 'no go' areas for indiginous people...comprendo? :moron:

Doubt away, the fact is that many nasty allegations have been made against him, and he's said loads of nasty things which have been proven too.

Even Rudd, my MP, said that he's basically a nasty piece of work.

[b]Nonsense-


You post content that any reasonable person is entitled to accept as a statement of fact,of which it was not, they were allegations, that were denied by others present, yet you posted them,one assumes that you actually read & understood what you were reading before posting the Link- I leave others to consider as to the reason why.

Don't shoot the messenger.

In this case, I think you just shot yourself, that's what happens with 'trigger-happy' folks. :muha1:

[b]Oh you don't care about that?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... k-47560192

I heard him say that on LBC.
[/b]
Nonsense-
"Mr Johnson did not make clear which investigation he was referring to, according to BBC's home affairs correspondent Danny Shaw".

He was making a perfectly valid point on the vast amount of time & public money being spent on historical cases.

That was a ligitimate comment on the sheer cost, but, you are right to say that it's a destestable comment as it stands,on that point I couldn't disagree one jot.
The question he ought to have been asked if he wished to talk specifically about child-related cases is, why, when so much money is spent on policing, are there so many unanswered cases outstanding?


False confidence, machiavelliany, bluster, charm (ok he does have a tiny bit) and a tiny bit of humour?

The last two 'qualities' are not enough to justify him
.

Nonsense-

Compared to his predecessor, I would put the score then, at 2-1 in his favour. :lol: :lol:


No he doesn't. He actually is still a secret Brexiteer IMHO, he just can't admit it to his party. It'd be the end of him.

Nonsense.

The way that things are currently going then, he doesn't have too long to wait for the end.



(shrugs) If you say so, I didn't even know such words appeared in there. You obviously have more experience of it than me.

(since when are horror film actors & German words chav words :lol: ).


Nonsense.

LOL, I wasn't specifically referring to those particular words, rather the 'spaffying' type, to which BoJo was attributing the wasted money on the child investigations,for which, if nothing came out of them, I would agree with that specific point, but condemn the prior lack of results in any such investigations already carried out & he went wrong IMHO, by linking child abuse investigations, with the waste of public money.



True. Yet, I'm probably still a billion times more cynical than you. :)

Nonsense-

Give it time, I may catch you up there.

You're undermining your own argument here IMHO.

Nonsense.
Whatever will be, will be, we will just have to wait & see.


Oh gawd, this is wishful thinking taken to new heights.
Nonsense.

Just part of the blame game, for which the voters will be the sole judge of.



But this whole debate is based on the premise of a 2022 suspension(!), you clearly knew that.

Nonsense.
I think you misunderstood the point then, it was an opinion, on a hypothetical question, to which I thought, considering the goings on in parliament by MP's,he Speaker, the Lords etc, could be justified, so, if it placates you, consider it a hypothetical premise.....you see what a little 'diplomacy' does now. ;)

Show me proof that it'll be ok and that it's 'fairly healthy' compared to other EU economies currently?

Nonsense.

Image
The European Union economy advanced 0.2 percent quarter-on-quarter in the three months to June 2019, slowing from a 0.5 percent expansion in the previous period. It was the weakest growth rate since the first quarter of 2013. GDP Growth Rate in European Union averaged 0.44 percent from 1995 until 2019, reaching an all time high of 1.30 percent in the third quarter of 1999 and a record low of -2.70 percent in the first quarter of 2009.

The U.K GDP increased by 0.3% in the 3 months to July 2019, the latest available figures.


Because it enriches certain individuals at the expense of country and party.

Nonsense-

But then, were it sold off, those companies would be taking on all of the overheads,long term cost etc.

Then, unlike a state owned service such as the N.H.S, the element of competition would rapidly assert itself, takeovers would happen, like the privatised railways show, consumer satisfaction falls, prices rise & eventually, along comes the inevitable crisis point.
Then the state would have to re-engage, thus completing the circle & the consumers(patients) would end up paying more taxes along with less services by way of more rationing.

The Tories are already infighting And they've been hijacked by Lord Voldemort aka Dom Cummings, and Boris's merry horror film extremist cast..


Nonsense-

So too are Labour,see what their conference stirs up, they too have been 'highjacked' by the BLAIRITE's, well those that haven't jumped ship, that is.
Last edited by Nonsense on 20 Sep 2019 23:04, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
By Nonsense
#15035001
SolarCross wrote:You are not really comparing apples with apples. The US is old compared with the EU. The EU clearly is aiming to become what the US is now but we were not sold on that back when we joined. When we joined it was just supposed to be a free trade zone, or common market.

Remainers are stuck in past fearing for losing the EU as it used to be. Brexiteers are looking at the future, at what it is trying to become.



I think that 'remainers' are the real conservatives of this country,no matter what political flag they wave, leavers' by contrast, reject the past failures & are willing to embrace a risky future in exchange for a little more freedom from control.

I personally do not care from where migrants come, providing that they only come here on one basis,to work,if they do so without recourse to the state for the normal working age years, that is no problem, I do care very much about the population level & the political social engineering that is driving that ever upwards at a faster rate than is natural.
Thats why I would like the population level as being the determining factor in which to control migration.
User avatar
By Kaiserschmarrn
#15035012
Presvias wrote:1. I'm a pragmatist and not a tribalistic, infighting & squabbly Remainer. So you got that completely wrong for starters. (I'm 100% against leaving without a deal - nothing else, every other option is preferable to that).

I'll leave you to your Leaver tribalism. Your single argument in favour of leaving without a deal is "I'm confident". You haven't got one shred of evidence that proves that NDBrexit will be ANY good for the country..I can simply point you to a WTO head, the IMF, the UK govt's own reports + the OBR, multiple experts, the LSE...everything.

And you even managed to claim that the UK avoided a double dip recession...words fail. Did you look at what happened in 2012?

The UK does not compare favourably with the EU over long term trends as I pointed out, did you even compare the graphs to the ones I posted? Your argument has been utterly shredded, but you're claiming you've won out.

There's therefore no point in further debate with you. If you won't even look at long term trends and compare them, then why should others continue to debate you?

Some of your posts came across as pretty squabbly and tribal, so the picture you paint of yourself is not immediately obvious. It also does not help that your posts are a collection of the usual Remainer talking points which I've heard hundreds of times before and that you now wrongly accuse me of claiming victory while doing exactly that yourself. In any case, I find the above a poor excuse to avoid responding to my post.

And of course I looked at what happened in 2012 (the UK grew by 1.5%, the EU contracted by 0.6%) and the long term trend (see my last post).

Presvias wrote:(By the way, just about every claim in that huffing post article is pish. It starts off with EU politicians making out that 'western civilisation will collapse', what a pile of scheisse.

“Why is it so dangerous? Because no one can foresee what the long-term consequences would be,” Tusk said. “As a historian I fear that Brexit could be the beginning of the destruction of not only the EU but also of western political civilisation in its entirety.”

Understand the difference?)

I understand that Tusk added the qualifier "political" to his apocalyptic claptrap, but I suspect he knew exactly what people would take away from it.

ingliz wrote:In truth, I don't give a fuck either... Why should I? It is not my country. As long as my narrow financial interest is satisfied, a 'catastrophic No-deal' wallow in your own shit exit suits me fine. :)

I have family in the UK and I care quite a lot. With that out of the way, many people probably think Brexit has a wider significance and that's why they are interested.
User avatar
By Nonsense
#15035036
Just a bit more positive news that's sure to disappoint 'remainers' & their project fear.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newslond ... ar-AAHy93N

London is the second leading financial centre of the world behind New York only, with not even one european city even in the top ten, the nearest being Zurich on 14th position.

Project fear by the europhiles, along with the Brussels brigade,claimed that London's position would be jeopardised because of the intentions of the French to make Paris eclipse London as the premier financial centre & it will not happen any time soon.

The fact is, London is an open global system for financial transactions & when the E.U puts it's clutches around the throats of financial transactions by taxing them, London will profit from that.

London is a crucial part of the U.K economy because of it's earnings contribution to the economy from services financial transactions.

London would simply adapt to any competition from europe, resulting in an increase to it's strength, it's the 'predator-prey' complex in survival & it's one more nail in the coffin for the remainers, that after 3 years, when the global economy is feeling the effects of lax monetary discipline, that we are not yet suffering to the degree that others are.
User avatar
By Kaiserschmarrn
#15035041
^ From the article:
During the referendum campaign, analysts claimed as many as 200,000 jobs could disappear if Britain voted to leave the bloc, prompting accusations their warnings were part of the infamous 'Project Fear'.

And since the vote to leave, politicians on the Continent have repeatedly bragged that their cities are set to eclipse London as financial centres.

The reality has been far more muted, however, with the predicted mass exodus failing to materialise. Instead, experts at the City of London Corporation have predicted only 5,000 jobs – or fewer than one in 200 – are at risk.

Just 1,000 financial services jobs have left the City and moved to rival European hubs so far, a study by EY revealed last night.

I can't remember the 200,000 number. Did they really claim that? :lol:

Also didn't realise until now that just 1,000 jobs had actually left so far, with the rest having been earmarked. I thought the 5,000 (7,000?) had already gone.
User avatar
By Beren
#15035134
Atlantis wrote:@Kaiserschmarrn is a wannabe Anglo from down-under. She doesn't give a f*ck about your country. All she cares about is to collate and spread anti-EU propaganda. If the UK is thrown into a major crisis as a result of a NDBrexit, that is no concern of her's as long as she can vent her anti-EU hatred.

This is the case with Anglo Brexiters too. I also don't understand how BoJo can be considered a real patriot rather than some unscrupulous egotist shit. Any rationality he has comes from his fellow charlatan and sociopath Dominic Cummings.
By Atlantis
#15035138
Beren wrote:This is the case with Anglo Brexiters too. I also don't understand how BoJo can be considered a real patriot rather than some unscrupulous egotist shit. Any rationality he has comes from his fellow charlatan and sociopath Dominic Cummings.


They believe in unfettered capitalism and in the trickle down. They want to abolish social and environmental regulations to enter a race to the bottom, which they believe will make them incredibly rich. And once they are filthy rich, they believe that their people will benefit from the trickle down. That's the basic idea. They joined up with Cummings because he provided them with some sort of philosophy of a technological utopia that will once again bring the 5-eye countries to the very top. That is a very static view of politics and life in general.
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