The New, and very Dangerous "Left" - Page 6 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15035141
anasawad wrote:Made this post on TLTE, but just remembered this thread exists, so....again:

I just came across this on Instagram, many are sharing it. (Note, it's also in a twitter thread, that's where I got the pics' links)

Image
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So "Progressives" have entered the book burning phase.

Can someone explain to me how exactly are these people considered liberals?
I mean, for fuck's sake, Destroying books, historical revisionism, discrediting science based on feelings, extreme ideological purity standards, etc; How is this even being allowed to happen?


There should be a very clear line drawn between cultural and societal progress and destroying things you don't like and calling it progress.
Racism, sexism, etc are bad, but you don't combat it by destroying books from an era when it was the standard.
And you sure as hell don't combat them by enforcing racial or gender quotas and all these other bullshit ideas.

Everything seems to indicate that the far left has indeed taken a radical turn into becoming just another one of those discredited and outdated ideological movements that belong nowhere other than the trash can of history along with all other extreme movements of both the left and the right, right down there along with communism, fascism, Christian theocracy, and hopefully soon, Islamism, etc.



Apparently this is real.

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/trashing-unwoke-books-washington-township-nj-equity-learning/


In answer to your question regarding how can such people be considered liberal, I argue that they are not. The confusion comes due to progressives using rights to justify their beliefs.

Rights in liberalism are supposed to be about restricting the power of those who control the state. Negative rights are intended to prevent those in power from being able to unduly interfere in the lives of the people being ruled over. However, in the last 50 years or so, following on from the civil rights era, the idea of positive rights was introduced. The idea being to address inequities facing minorities, women, etc. In this view of rights, the state is supposed to interfere in peoples’ lives to protect the rights of designated disadvantaged identity groups for the sake of equality.

The result is of course the complete opposite of liberalism. This sort of interference can only result in a totalitarian and authoritarian society in which fanatics like the ones in the twits can engage in moral zealotry, such as destroying books and indoctrinating children in the ‘correct’ faith.

Liberalism is dying in the West. These moral zealots are only part of the story. The elites are thinking like aristocrats. The culture that is emerging is the very thing early liberalism was created in opposition to.
#15035144
Reichstraten wrote:Why do you think this?

Because this is so frequent it's becoming the norm. These behaviors are everywhere we look.

@foxdemon
Liberalism is dying in the West.

And that, in my view, would be the greatest tragedy in our modern times.
The ideals of freedom, liberty, and justice are being taken in vain and dying in the west as totalitarianism is growing, and in the rest of the world, it's not strong enough to stand on its own.
#15035151
anasawad wrote:Because this is so frequent it's becoming the norm. These behaviors are everywhere we look.


What country are you from? America?

If it's "everywhere" then it shouldn't be that difficult to find more examples.

I don't see it, but that may be because I don't read obscure right wing websites.
#15035154
Reichstraten wrote:Nobody calls it murder when a tree, an organism without counsciousness, is cut down. So why should you call an early abortion murder?

The big difference is that a tree will never develop into a human being.
#15035155
anasawad wrote:@Presvias

True, and we already fight them for it.


Sure, but taking a small sample and calling it the norm isn't really factual.

Since you, also, are well-read on history; I am sure you are fully aware of the consequences and what the coming developments will be when more and more people become mere zealot ideologues.


But what other examples are you referring to?

You said I'm not being factual - 100% fair enough, I'll hold my hands up to that - but if you want evidence from me; then it's surely fair enough that I'd ask evidence from you. You have, after all, only listed two anecdotal examples in a world of billions of people.

I agree with most of the other stuff you said, except for the evidence part. You are right about ideological leaders that are part of the 'intelligentsia' being potentially dangerous. And I'm sorry to hear that you experienced trouble for your beliefs - imho wahhabism and salafism should be treated with great suspicion; and saudi funded mosques and strange organisationbs should be carefully watched and be controlled.

Hopefully, a result of the US shift from dependence on SA, is that they will fall out of favour...

I've seen few examples of the prog libs trying to trash old lit. That's why I can't in good faith accept your claim uncritically. Hopefully you will empathise with my position.
#15035166
@Reichstraten @Presvias
If it's "everywhere" then it shouldn't be that difficult to find more examples.

I don't see it, but that may be because I don't read obscure right wing websites.

But what other examples are you referring to?

You guys really going to hide behind this?
There are endless examples, and every while a big set comes along, and we open tons of threads on them. 100s of examples are listed on this forum alone.


In regards to historical revisionism, already discussed dozens of times here, just look at any discussion regarding WW2, the pre-war era, or the cold war with far left progressives, literally anyone, you can find 1000s of pages right here on this forum.
Regarding the anti-science stuff, just go to buzzfeed, huffpost, PBS, the gaurdian, etc and look at their pieces regarding gender and race.
Regarding ideological purity, there is literally a thread right now on recent posts about what the Canadian PM did when he was a kid and the outrage regarding it; Everywhile there is a big story about some famous person said the wrong word so the witch hunt begins, and there are tons of the minor ones where now people get arrested for tweets or jokes all over Europe.

How many times should this be shown over and over again before everyone realizes that there is a problem and it's growing?

@Reichstraten
I don't see it, but that may be because I don't read obscure right-wing websites.

The far-right being a group of liars and idiots doesn't excuse the far left. Both extremes are shit.

@Presvias
I've seen few examples of the prog libs trying to trash old lit.

This is the first example I've seen of progressives going full on destroying books as well.
That's why I said we're entering the book burning phase now.
It started with public shaming, over the years it grew to bullying, then censorship, then now all across Europe the stories of people getting arrested for tweets or "hate speech" is growing by the day, and now it appears we're entering into the book burning phase in the evolution of totalitarian movements.
And the response from regular liberals seems to be the same old silence as everyone is focused on the right-wing and not paying attention to the cancer growing inside liberalism and eating it from the inside.

Read up on the rise of totalitarianism in Russia, Italy, Germany, and Japan.
It's the same story and tactics.
#15035181
anasawad wrote:You guys really going to hide behind this?
There are endless examples, and every while a big set comes along, and we open tons of threads on them. 100s of examples are listed on this forum alone.


You are still not getting specific.
Do you mean this thread? SJWs and Crazy Things They Do Thread
The world doesn't rotate around America, you know? SJW's are a phenomenon in all western countries, but as I can observe the USA stands out in this.
It's my opinion that most SJW's are not as dangerous as many of you seem to think.
Most of them are just some regular persons who happen to own a twitteraccount where they post some not very bright stuff now and then.
They have no power other than the power of opinion.
Another story is the political correctness on (American) universities. They have a bad influence, but are not particulary dangerous. Even Francis Fukuyama agrees with me on this.
The danger of alt-right/light ideas infecting the thoughts of people in the west is far more poignant.
#15035183
anasawad wrote:You guys really going to hide behind this?
There are endless examples, and every while a big set comes along, and we open tons of threads on them. 100s of examples are listed on this forum alone.

This is rubbish. Yes, you open tons of threads, but they are full of bullshit. In this one, for example, a peaceful demonstration in London against a far right group that regularly fight with the police was painted as a dangerous group who should be marked as 'terrorists'. And denounced, against all evidence, as 'Zionist'. The threads about 'antifa' I see on PoFo are typical examples of the hysteria and detachment from reality of right wingers.

In regards to historical revisionism, already discussed dozens of times here, just look at any discussion regarding WW2, the pre-war era, or the cold war with far left progressives, literally anyone, you can find 1000s of pages right here on this forum.

Historical revisionism for WW2 or pre-war? That is far righters making excuses for Hitler, or saying the west should have joined with Hitler to fight Stalin. What 'historical revisionism' do you think you've seen?

Regarding the anti-science stuff, just go to buzzfeed, huffpost, PBS, the gaurdian, etc and look at their pieces regarding gender and race.

The 'anti-science' stuff with race is those who think humanity can be divided up into 'races', and assigned stereotypical characteristics. The science is quite clear about it; there are variations in the human genome, but hardly any have any correlation to skin colour.

Regarding ideological purity, there is literally a thread right now on recent posts about what the Canadian PM did when he was a kid and the outrage regarding it; Everywhile there is a big story about some famous person said the wrong word so the witch hunt begins, and there are tons of the minor ones where now people get arrested for tweets or jokes all over Europe.

When he was a 29 year old teacher. There are 3 known times he blacked up, and he himself says there may be more - he thought so little of it that it wasn't something that would stick in his mind. This is worth discussing.

This is the first example I've seen of progressives going full on destroying books as well.
That's why I said we're entering the book burning phase now.

People have thrown away their books they no longer think worthwhile all the time. That one person has proudly posted on social media about it is hardly a 'book burning phase'.

It started with public shaming, over the years it grew to bullying, then censorship, then now all across Europe the stories of people getting arrested for tweets or "hate speech" is growing by the day, and now it appears we're entering into the book burning phase in the evolution of totalitarian movements.

Public shaming has been around in all civilisations throughout history. They pretty much depend on it as a form of protecting the status quo. The amount of shaming these days is far less than it used to be. But some of the shaming is now directed at those who want to shame others (eg those who think what PBS and The Guardian say about gender and race is "anti-science" and a problem).

And the response from regular liberals seems to be the same old silence as everyone is focused on the right-wing and not paying attention to the cancer growing inside liberalism and eating it from the inside.

Read up on the rise of totalitarianism in Russia, Italy, Germany, and Japan.
It's the same story and tactics.

It's the right wing who are encouraging death squads (Duterte), burning the remaining forests (Bolsonaro) and locking up innocent children (Trump). That's the cancer on the world. Of course that's who people should concentrate on. Instead, you're mischaracterising books in a bin as 'totalitarian'.
#15035198
@Reichstraten
The world indeed doesn't rotate around the US, and the dangers of the far left is becoming far clearer in Europe than in the US as the US is turning more and more into a battleground between the far left and far right.


@Prosthetic Conscience
Yes, you open tons of threads, but they are full of bullshit.

I don't, I just read them, but anyways.

In this one, for example, a peaceful demonstration in London against a far right group that regularly fight with the police was painted as a dangerous group who should be marked as 'terrorists'. And denounced, against all evidence, as 'Zionist'. The threads about 'antifa' I see on PoFo are typical examples of the hysteria and detachment from reality of right wingers.

It seems this must be repeated a few thousands of times, the far right being shit doesn't excuse the far left for being shit as well.

Regarding Antifa, they're a group of low level thugs equally as thuggish as the far right and the new "alt right" gangs and "protestors". Both are shit.
But when we look at the mainstream and the laws, the right isn't the one growing in power, infact the right wing is being shunned out in most places. It's the far left growing in power in many countries in Europe and the west in general and it's the far left, more and more, shaping the legal grounds.

Historical revisionism for WW2 or pre-war? That is far righters making excuses for Hitler, or saying the west should have joined with Hitler to fight Stalin. What 'historical revisionism' do you think you've seen?

Feel free to surf the discussions on the soviet union and their social policies and how they're portrayed, not just on this forum but in the "progressive media" and mainstream academia throughout the western world.

The 'anti-science' stuff with race is those who think humanity can be divided up into 'races', and assigned stereotypical characteristics. The science is quite clear about it; there are variations in the human genome, but hardly any have any correlation to skin colour.

Skin color is an adoption to environment built over thousands of years, just as many other features; although this does not justify racism nor does hold any differences beyond physical features between various racial groups, race and ethnicities still do exist.
And regarding gender, which is the most discussed, biological and genetic differences between men and women do exist, sex and gender are not "social constructs", and gender roles, though their theme varies, are, for the most part, biologically driven.
And also, you can't switch gender back and forth overnight, and there are only 2 genders.

When he was a 29 year old teacher. There are 3 known times he blacked up, and he himself says there may be more - he thought so little of it that it wasn't something that would stick in his mind. This is worth discussing.

Once then, and mainly when he was in high school and university.

People have thrown away their books they no longer think worthwhile all the time.

Not in a huge pile and not for ideological reasons.

That one person has proudly posted on social media about it is hardly a 'book burning phase'.

You mean that one person emptying a school's library?

And it does seem like lots of people are just fine with it as it is the logical conclusion of the push for the so-called "diversity" in reading habits promoted by the likes of the Guardian and Buzzfeed under the banner of anti-racism and anti-sexism and all of that.

It starts with "read from people with more diverse backgrounds" and all, then it turns into labeling anything from differing views or ideologies as not only racist and sexist, etc, but also reading them is participation in the sexism and racism and then it turns to get rid of those materials and it's a matter of time before we start seeing the book burning. (We're in the second stage right now)

Funny enough, I've also seen this alot when I lived in Jordan, some books are just evil and anti-Islam, even if they didn't even discuss Islam to begin with, simply because they differ in views from the Islamic doctrine and they are written by infidels so by reading them you'd be committing apostasy as you participate in spreading infidel beliefs and ideas.
Of course, Salafists already passed the book burning and banning stages long ago.

Public shaming has been around in all civilizations throughout history.

Sure, public shaming is the normal standard, it's when it turns to mob bullying, social castration, and ostracisation for minor things or for holding different views that it becomes a problem.

They pretty much depend on it as a form of protecting the status quo. The amount of shaming these days is far less than it used to be. But some of the shaming is now directed at those who want to shame others

Shaming other people of all sides by all sides is expected. When it turns into bullying, witch hunts, arrests, and censorship, it becomes a problem.

And what the Guardian publishes about race and gender is bullshit and inconsistent with most scientific facts, especially what it publishes about gender. And BuzzFeed and HuffPost are even worse.

It's the right wing who are encouraging death squads (Duterte), burning the remaining forests (Bolsonaro) and locking up innocent children (Trump). That's the cancer on the world. Of course that's who people should concentrate on. Instead, you're mischaracterising books in a bin as 'totalitarian'.

Because those are already considered bad and evil and are fought against by every one and they'll never last.
Them existing, again, does not mean that totalitarianism isn't on the rise from the far left and it doesn't mean it's not a problem. Two wrongs don't make a right.

And in my view, yes, the totalitarian elements on the left, especially among the far-left progressive movement, are far far more dangerous than any Trump or right-wing movement.
We already know Trump is shit, everyone does, and everyone will fight hem and stop hem.
The totalitarians inside the liberal movement will gradually destroy it from the inside, and not only the world as a whole will end up under the grip of different flavors of totalitarian ideologies then, but there won't be anything left to stand up to it.

And again with the comparison with the Islamic world; it's not groups like ISIS that are a threat, those are already seen as horrible and everyone fights them and shuts them down, it's institutions like Al-Azhar and the various offshoots of the Muslim brotherhood that grows like cancer in the background, changing laws and reforming social norms to their image all while everyone is too busy paying attention to the obvious evil like ISIS and the Taliban.
#15035202
@anasawad,

How is the far left becoming more dangerous in Europe?
You keep talking about the totalitarianism of the left, but what evidence do you have? Please give us a few examples.
What do you mean exactly?

Governments? Most European countries have center-right governments right now.
A few SJW's on twitter? They have no real power outside the power of opinion.
Political correct professors on universities? How do they control whole crowds of people? Why are you afraid of a few professors?
#15035207
anasawad wrote:@Presvias You guys really going to hide behind this?
There are endless examples, and every while a big set comes along, and we open tons of threads on them. 100s of examples are listed on this forum alone.


Lol.

I'm not hiding behind anything, why do you feel the need to use an accusatory tone with me, when I've gone out of my way to be accommodating of your point of view?

If there are hundreds of poignant examples, just show me a few of them and I'll be brought round to your point?

In regards to historical revisionism, already discussed dozens of times here, just look at any discussion regarding WW2, the pre-war era, or the cold war with far left progressives, literally anyone, you can find 1000s of pages right here on this forum.
Regarding the anti-science stuff, just go to buzzfeed, huffpost, PBS, the gaurdian, etc and look at their pieces regarding gender and race.
Regarding ideological purity, there is literally a thread right now on recent posts about what the Canadian PM did when he was a kid and the outrage regarding it; Everywhile there is a big story about some famous person said the wrong word so the witch hunt begins, and there are tons of the minor ones where now people get arrested for tweets or jokes all over Europe.


I agree that some censorship/shaming/bullying and outrage goes too far, quite regularly, but you're equating this with totalitarian oppression and mass burning books. It's not the same. They don't follow on.

And you're particularly having a go at 'liberals' (just FWIW, I don't consider myself a 'liberal' anyway), ....when nasty right wing folks like Trump et al are trying to use the broad term 'liberal' to include anyone they don't like and so called 'liberal values' (which are just basic human rights & values of respect, but the word 'liberal' has to be added) are under attack.

@PresviasIt started with public shaming, over the years it grew to bullying, then censorship, then now all across Europe the stories of people getting arrested for tweets or "hate speech" is growing by the day, and now it appears we're entering into the book burning phase in the evolution of totalitarian movements.

And the response from regular liberals seems to be the same old silence as everyone is focused on the right-wing and not paying attention to the cancer growing inside liberalism and eating it from the inside.

Read up on the rise of totalitarianism in Russia, Italy, Germany, and Japan.
It's the same story and tactics.


There is a very right wing instigated trend to attack anyone with divergent views as a liberal, even if they're not.

I'm not saying you're doing this, but your words give effect to their wrongful cause. Don't let yourself be used by these people.
#15035208
@Reichstraten
Did you know that, in most western European countries right now, you can be arrested, forced to pay a fine, potentially go to jail, lose your job and have your life dragged on the floor if you said something that could be considered "offensive" or "Hatefull" and was reported for it?

The left does have power, especially in social policy, infact it's pretty much running these policies in most western countries with the exception of the US, and it is heavily present in the corporate world which does sway public policy.
And those "few professors" are raising ideologues who're getting more radical as time passes by.
#15035210
@Presvias
If there are hundreds of poignant examples, just show me a few of them and I'll be brought round to your point?

For the getting rid of books in mass, as stated, this is the first case I've come across.
But for the rest, it is getting out of hand.
In the UK, Germany, and France alone the cases of "hate speech violations" count in the thousands, and though, according to the various police departments, they've been finding a hard time fully enforcing the law over social media, they're expanding their efforts and starting to crack down as time goes by.
They're literally everywhere and these things are constantly on the news.

I agree that some censorship/shaming/bullying and outrage goes too far, quite regularly, but you're equating this with totalitarian oppression and mass burning books. It's not the same. They don't follow on.

It always starts in small numbers and severity and it grows.

And you're particularly having a go at 'liberals' (just FWIW, I don't consider myself a 'liberal' anyway), ....when nasty right wing folks like Trump et al are trying to use the broad term 'liberal' to include anyone they don't like and so called 'liberal values' (which are just basic human rights & values of respect, but the word 'liberal' has to be added) are under attack.


As responded right above here:
And in my view, yes, the totalitarian elements on the left, especially among the far-left progressive movement, are far far more dangerous than any Trump or right-wing movement.
We already know Trump is shit, everyone does, and everyone will fight hem and stop hem.
The totalitarians inside the liberal movement will gradually destroy it from the inside, and not only the world as a whole will end up under the grip of different flavors of totalitarian ideologies then, but there won't be anything left to stand up to it.

And again with the comparison with the Islamic world; it's not groups like ISIS that are a threat, those are already seen as horrible and everyone fights them and shuts them down, it's institutions like Al-Azhar and the various offshoots of the Muslim brotherhood that grows like cancer in the background, changing laws and reforming social norms to their image all while everyone is too busy paying attention to the obvious evil like ISIS and the Taliban.


There is a very right wing instigated trend to attack anyone with divergent views as a liberal, even if they're not.

I am socially liberal, politically center-left social democrat-socialist democrat with some technocratic elements; That's why I see this as cancer growing inside the liberal movement, If I was a right-winger I wouldn't care about it.

And if it was coming from the right, I wouldn't give it much weight because right wing movements, atleast in most of Europe, are taking their dying breaths so they're not a threat.
#15035217
anasawad wrote:It seems this must be repeated a few thousands of times, the far right being shit doesn't excuse the far left for being shit as well.

Regarding Antifa, they're a group of low level thugs equally as thuggish as the far right and the new "alt right" gangs and "protestors". Both are shit.
But when we look at the mainstream and the laws, the right isn't the one growing in power, infact the right wing is being shunned out in most places. It's the far left growing in power in many countries in Europe and the west in general and it's the far left, more and more, shaping the legal grounds.

You repeating it a few thousand times won't make your attempt to mislead us be worth reading again.

The video is not of 'thugs'. It's of people saying the alt-right are 'shit', just as you do. But, for no apparent reason, you think that you get to call those people 'shit' too. Perhaps you have been hypnotised into thinking that anything labeled 'antifa' must be bad. When, in reality, it's anti-fascist - which is a good thing.

When we look at the mainstream, we find an increase in far right wing movements in power, or close to it - Trump, Orban, Duterte, Bolsonaro, the Front National in France . Thankfully, Salvini and his League have lost power in Italy. But there's nowhere in Europe or the west where the far left is growing in power. You're just making that up. It's rare for the centre-left to be in power.
#15035224
No one is advocating burning books.

A curriculum was changed in order to provide a more inclusive reading list, and the old books that were ebing used by the school were thrown out.

There was no censorship or attempt to keep anyone from reading these books. If they are getting rid of Sophocles, then rest assured, they still have copies of his works in the library. People can still access then and read them.

The left is not being oppressive. You guys are just misunderstanding the situation and fooling yourselves into believing that you are victims.
#15035229
@Prosthetic Conscience
You repeating it a few thousand times won't make your attempt to mislead us be worth reading again.

If you think I'm trying to "mislead" you, then you clearly are confusing me with someone else in here.

The video is not of 'thugs'. It's of people saying the alt-right are 'shit', just as you do. But, for no apparent reason, you think that you get to call those people 'shit' too. Perhaps you have been hypnotised into thinking that anything labeled 'antifa' must be bad. When, in reality, it's anti-fascist - which is a good thing.

Personally, I haven't even seen the video in this thread.
But I have seen videos of antifa before and read about them, and in almost all of them are a bunch of people wearing black on black rioting, beating people up, setting things on fire, rioting in general.
So if those people represent you, then I don't see how you're different from the fascists if you're both willing to make violence your go-to.

And yes, I get to call them shit because they're shit.
If you're gonna act like fascists to stop fascists, then you're no different than they are, and neither should hold any power.

When we look at the mainstream, we find an increase in far right wing movements in power, or close to it - Trump, Orban, Duterte, Bolsonaro, the Front National in France . Thankfully, Salvini and his League have lost power in Italy. But there's nowhere in Europe or the west where the far left is growing in power. You're just making that up. It's rare for the centre-left to be in power.

The only one that is in a country that is supposed to be a liberal democracy is Trump. Even though it's actually an oligarchy, but anyways.
And I'm making that up?
Thousands of cases over hate speech in Germany, the UK making it it's official policy to crack down on "hateful material" on social media and arresting people for it, with France following it up. Censorship rapidly increasing everywhere and on all social media platforms, etc and you don't consider that the left has any power.

I really doubt the right would cracking down on racism and arresting people for it; See, usually, they're the racist ones so they won't arrest their own.
#15035232
@anasawad,

Right wingers are calling Mohammed a pedophile all the time without getting sued.
On the internet almost anything can be said, on sites like 8chan.

Intelligent criticism, based on facts and argumentation, is generally permitted.
If you're just insulting for the sake of insulting, why shouldn't that be fined?

About left wing social policy, that's a result of living in a social democracy.
You rightfully exclude America, because it's one of the few western countries that's not a social democracy. Most others are.
How is the corporate world left? I don't see that honestly.
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