Was Gene Roddenberry a Marxist/Socialist? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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As either the transitional stage to communism or legitimate socio-economic ends in its own right.
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#15035288
Gene Roddenberry created Star Trek and I believe he was trying to show people that a socialist world is possible. Star Trek seemed to promote ideas such as tolerance, diversity, equality, and environmentalism - typical marxist ideas. With scientific technology we could create food replicators to eliminate scarcity of resources.

If a star trek universe were possible, would you be for it? And is my impression accurate, that this would be the ideal result of a socialist philosophy?
#15035306
Agent Steel wrote:ideas such as tolerance, diversity, equality, and environmentalism - typical marxist ideas.


None of those are unique to Marxism and a couple of them are antithetical to the philosophy. Revolutionary Marxism isn't big on tolerance or diversity, it's an oppressive authoritarian ideology that demands conformity.
#15035310
I do not think Gene was a communist. The creep of communist propaganda did not really start to seep into Star Trek until TNG and even then it was not until DS9 that it became very noticeable. Gene Roddenberry did not have that much to do with the writing of TNG and nothing at all to do with writing of DS9 and Voyager.

The Original Series does not have any communist implications except that the klingons seem to be a loose proxy for coldwar russians but the klingons are unambigious enemies of the federation.

I believe Gene once said that the Federation was America in space. He was a classic American irreligious liberal if anything.

The communist slant was the work of other later writers.

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According to producer Rick Berman, Roddenberry's involvement in The Next Generation "diminished greatly" after the first season,[127] but the nature of his increasingly peripheral role was not disclosed because of the value of his name to fans.[127] While Berman said that Roddenberry had "all but stopped writing and rewriting" by the end of the third season, his final writing credit on the show (a co-teleplay credit) actually occurred considerably earlier, appearing on "Datalore", the 13th episode of the first season.
#15035314
SolarCross wrote:I do not think Gene was a communist.


He was a propagandist for liberal technocracy.
#15035341
Agent Steel wrote:Gene Roddenberry created Star Trek and I believe he was trying to show people that a socialist world is possible. Star Trek seemed to promote ideas such as tolerance, diversity, equality, and environmentalism - typical marxist ideas. With scientific technology we could create food replicators to eliminate scarcity of resources.

If a star trek universe were possible, would you be for it? And is my impression accurate, that this would be the ideal result of a socialist philosophy?


Tolerance and diversity are not marxist ideas. Marx was an anti-semite. The commies did not tolerate religion and murdered millions.

However, Star Trek promoted a future where poverty had been eradicated and technology was so successful that there was no need for currency. Status was gained by accomplishments not income. I suspect the homeless will not be homeless in a futuristic world; but they will stay be of low socioeconomic class

The newer versions of Star Trek have made a mockery of diversity by giving fictitious aliens with grotesque elephant animal like features from other planets the same minority status as black people. Just look at the Orville show.
#15035356
Julian658 wrote:Tolerance and diversity are not marxist ideas. Marx was an anti-semite. The commies did not tolerate religion and murdered millions.


I am not certain that actually happened in the Soviet Union.

I know in Latin America, the communists and the religious people got together and created liberation theology. The basic idea for Christianity is the same as communism: help the poor.

However, Star Trek promoted a future where poverty had been eradicated and technology was so successful that there was no need for currency. Status was gained by accomplishments not income. I suspect the homeless will not be homeless in a futuristic world; but they will stay be of low socioeconomic class


Yes, a classless society where the state withers away.
#15035361
Throughout the history of the Soviet Union (1917–1991), there were periods when Soviet authorities brutally suppressed and persecuted various forms of Christianity to different extents depending on State interests.[1] Soviet Marxist-Leninist policy consistently advocated the control, suppression, and ultimately, the elimination of religious beliefs, and it actively encouraged the propagation of Marxist-Leninist atheism in the Soviet Union.[2] However, most religions were never officially outlawed.[1]

The state advocated the destruction of religion, and to achieve this goal, it officially denounced religious beliefs as superstitious and backward.[3][4] The Communist Party destroyed churches, synagogues,[5] and mosques, ridiculed, harassed, incarcerated and executed religious leaders, flooded the schools and media with anti-religious teachings, and it introduced a belief system called "scientific atheism," with its own rituals, promises and proselytizers.[6][7] According to some sources, the total number of Christian victims under the Soviet regime has been estimated to range around 12-20 million.[8][9]


Some actions against Orthodox priests and believers included torture, execution or sending them to prison camps, labor camps and mental hospitals.[24][25][26][27] Many Orthodox (along with peoples of other faiths) were also subjected to psychological punishment or torture and mind control experimentation in order to force them to give up their religious convictions (see Punitive psychiatry in the Soviet Union).[25][26][28] During the first five years of Soviet power, the Bolsheviks executed 28 Russian Orthodox bishops and over 1,200 Russian Orthodox priests. Many others were imprisoned or exiled.[2]

In the period which followed the Second world war, Protestant Christians in the USSR (Baptists, Pentecostals, Adventists etc.) were forcibly sent to mental hospitals, or they were tried and imprisoned (often for refusing to enter military service). Some were forcibly deprived of their parental rights.[29]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecu ... viet_Union
#15035363
Pants-of-dog wrote:I am not certain that actually happened in the Soviet Union.


Well you just run with whatever's convenient regardless of facts or logic so that's not surprising.

The basic idea for Christianity is the same as communism: help the poor.


That's not the basic idea of Christianity or communism. :knife:
#15035370
There was a book back then, that was popular among intellectuals. It was called the 7 Laws of Money.

One of the laws is that there are worlds without money (by world, he meant cultures).

Roddenbury imagined a world without racism or nationalism. He tried to imagine a world without money, as well.

He wasn't entirely successful in that regard. Status inequality wound up being a lot like income inequality.

I don't knock him for that. Capitalism has been, in a lot of ways, very successful. It may also make the species extinct, as a side effect. But hey, nothing is perfect.

Let me remind you, there is no magic. Capitalism is a way of doing things. It's likely something better will come along. It's the way of things, just as capitalism replaced mercantilism.

Back to Trek, things changed with TNG. People bought things, played poker. So they had a salary.

I see it as inevitable. Trek was based on British naval fiction. So it came with a lot of baggage. If money disappears, it is possible most relationships will be changed, even if the future still has a military.

Now that would be interesting.
#15035386
Earth/humans were anti-money, but not all aliens within the Federation were, so they'd be forced to cope with that, particularly on DS9.
#15035397
foxdemon wrote:Also in DS9, there were private businesses on the promenade. Clearly there had to be a medium of exchange involved.

I see the Borg as being more of a socialist thing.

DS9 was not really in the federation. It was formerly a Cardassian station which in DS9 had passed to the ownership of the Bajorans not the federation. The feds were there as administrators to keep the peace between the Bajorans and the Cardassians. I think all of the private business of the promenade were owned by bajorans or other aliens such as Quark and that fat klingon. I don't think any federation citizens were allowed to do business there.

A rebel starfleet officer called Michel Eddington made an interesting rant where he basically claimed the federation were just like the borg.

#15035449
Pants-of-dog wrote:I am not certain that actually happened in the Soviet Union.

You don't believe the state was at fault in the Soviet Union. The people died of natural causes? No Gulag? No famine? Please explain:

I know in Latin America, the communists and the religious people got together and created liberation theology. The basic idea for Christianity is the same as communism: help the poor.

And that is where the similarities end. And if you think Christianity is all about helping the poorI would like to sell you a bridge.

Yes, a classless society where the state withers away.


The Utopia and Disneyland thoughts are nothing but dreams.
#15035455
Sivad wrote:Well you just run with whatever's convenient regardless of facts or logic so that's not surprising.


Ad hominem. Ignored.

That's not the basic idea of Christianity or communism. :knife:


Yes, it is.

—————————

Julian658 wrote:You don't believe the state was at fault in the Soviet Union. The people died of natural causes? No Gulag? No famine? Please explain:


That is not what I said.

When you make up stuff and put those words into your opponent’s mouth, it is called a strawman.

And that is where the similarities end. And if you think Christianity is all about helping the poorI would like to sell you a bridge.


The point that you ignored was that communists in Latin AMerica had no problem with the church, so the claim that communists are inherently anti-religious is wrong.
#15035459
Pants-of-dog wrote:

That is not what I said.

When you make up stuff and put those words into your opponent’s mouth, it is called a strawman.



Commies killed millions in Russia and China. Are you willing to admit that?


The point that you ignored was that communists in Latin AMerica had no problem with the church, so the claim that communists are inherently anti-religious is wrong.


Sure, there are variations to the theme. But, atheism is central to marxism. I am not saying atheism is good or bad. I am just making an observation about communism. An exception to the rule is a debate fallacy.
#15035462
Julian658 wrote:Commies killed millions in Russia and China. Are you willing to admit that?


Sure. Capitalists have killed millions all over the world and are still doing it.

Are you willing to admit that?

Sure, there are variations to the theme. But, atheism is central to marxism. I am not saying atheism is good or bad. I am just making an observation about communism. An exception to the rule is a debate fallacy.


No, atheism is not central to Marxism. Nor is it inherent to Marxism, or necessary.
#15035473
I think he was trying to show a world that transcends all the bullshit of today. I don't think he was specifically trying to shows socialism as the way into the future. If that something he was showing looked more like socialism, I think it was unintentional.
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