The New, and very Dangerous "Left" - Page 7 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

All general discussion about politics that doesn't belong in any of the other forums.

Moderator: PoFo Political Circus Mods

#15035240
@Pants-of-dog
There was no censorship or attempt to keep anyone from reading these books. If they are getting rid of Sophocles, then rest assured, they still have copies of his works in the library. People can still access then and read them.

The left is not being oppressive. You guys are just misunderstanding the situation and fooling yourselves into believing that you are victims.

The oppressive elements are growing at a notable rate.

And don't worry, I'm not a "victim" nor any of these policies affect me directly.
My problem is that these totalitarian voices coming out of the progressive movement in your countries are being used to silence and attack the liberal movement and stop liberal reforms in my home country.

You want to address prejudice, great, so do I and many others, and we all want social reforms; Then, the stories about arrests for hate speech starts popping up where the person in question just said some mean thing on the internet.
Now considering that we're both considered liberals, and in many occasions organizers from western countries like Canada, the US, UK, and France come to Lebanon to help around, we're considered one movement, so when you start arresting people for saying offensive things, what other movements here hear is whoever holds power gets to arrest their opposition and, specifically, other religious groups since Lebanon is divided on religious, not racial lines.

In short, when some in your country, an already established liberal country, break the principles and values of liberalism, you discredit liberal movements trying to spread liberal values in their perspective countries all around the world.


@Reichstraten
Right wingers are calling Mohammed a pedophile all the time without getting sued.

I do too, because he is.

And although that's offensive, it should still be under the banner free speech, and arresting someone for saying something like this would be a dangerous thing to do.
The minute you start arresting people for words, i.e. thought crimes, you effectively destroyed your own movement and even self because the minute your rivals take power you be assured they'll criminalize all your views and round you up for it.
And it does seem that's starting to happen around and at an increasing rate.

Intelligent criticism, based on facts and argumentation, is generally permitted.
If you're just insulting for the sake of insulting, why shouldn't that be fined?

Neither should be fined. Both are acceptable.
If you don't like something, simply don't read it or listen to it.

Freedom of speech means that even someone you despise and despise everything they hold and believe has the right to express them as loud as they want without any restrictions.
And the minute you start taking that freedom away, everyone loses it.

About left-wing social policy, that's a result of living in a social democracy.


Not really, no. Social Democracies were established on liberal principles and values, the recent developments are a break away from these principles.

How is the corporate world left? I don't see that honestly.

On the very top, it's neither left nor right, it's pragmatic; But on everything else, it's mostly left-wing, or at least overkilling it with the pandering to the far left.
If the corporate world was far-right, the way these corporations operate internally would be the exact opposite of what we see today.
Corporations being predatory doesn't mean they're right-wing, they're private corporations in a capitalist market, they'll always be predatory as a default, even if you established the most liberal green peaceful etc corporation, if it's not predatory in a capitalist market it'll die out and shut down.
What you need to look at is how these corporations operate internally.
There are right-wing corporations of course, like Amazon is pretty shit and one of the more crushing ones to work in even in high levels, but the larger portion are pandering and adopting to the far-left.

To give direct examples, compare Amazon to HSBC or Goldman Sachs or Google internally. You'll see the difference and what I mean.


Noting that I make a distinction between center-left and far left, primarily because I am center-left. But anyways.
#15035242
anasawad wrote:@Pants-of-dog

The oppressive elements are growing at a notable rate.


If you are talking about creeping fascism in the USA and some European countries, yes.

If you are thinking that progressives are oppressing people, then no, that is not correct.

And don't worry, I'm not a "victim" nor any of these policies affect me directly.
My problem is that these totalitarian voices coming out of the progressive movement in your countries are being used to silence and attack the liberal movement and stop liberal reforms in my home country.


Do you have a specific example of this?

You want to address prejudice, great, so do I and many others, and we all want social reforms; Then, the stories about arrests for hate speech starts popping up where the person in question just said some mean thing on the internet.
Now considering that we're both considered liberals, and in many occasions organizers from western countries like Canada, the US, UK, and France come to Lebanon to help around, we're considered one movement, so when you start arresting people for saying offensive things, what other movements here hear is whoever holds power gets to arrest their opposition and, specifically, other religious groups since Lebanon is divided on religious, not racial lines.

In short, when some in your country, an already established liberal country, break the principles and values of liberalism, you discredit liberal movements trying to spread liberal values in their perspective countries all around the world.


Who is being arrested for hate speech?

Can you give examples?

I can provide examples of right wingers in this forum calling for progressives and antifa supporters to lose their free speech rights.
#15035243
@Pants-of-dog
If you are thinking that progressives are oppressing people, then no, that is not correct.

Not in mass, not at the moment, but trying to.

Do you have a specific example of this?

I did, It's the part right below this one.

Who is being arrested for hate speech?

Well, exact numbers I'm not sure, I haven't searched all of the countries yet.
But in Germany around 1400 people last years fined or arrested.
That's a large number for a police force saying it's finding it very difficult to crack down hate speech online and working to expand their capabilities on doing so.

I can provide examples of right wingers in this forum calling for progressives and antifa supporters to lose their free speech rights.

No need, I already know many on the right want censorship; It doesn't make it acceptable for either to do so.
#15035244
91-year-old man in Sweden convicted of “hate speech” for his Facebook post
https://reclaimthenet.org/91-year-old-m ... te-speech/
A 91-year-old man, who may be one of the oldest Swedes on record, has been convicted of hate speech after making online ridicule about Islam and Muslims.

Lokaltidningen reports that the senior Swedish man posted some comments in a Facebook group disparaging Muslims.

One of the posts written by the elderly man directly targeted the Muslims: – “You cannot, with the best will in the world, call these beings people. They seem to be inbred as they carry on,” he said.

The Kristianstad district court has convicted the man of hatred directed against an ethnic group, saying that the post had been up for nearly a year and that 12,000 people might have seen it.

The usual penalty for the crime of such magnitude includes two months in prison. But the 91-year-old was given a conditional sentence along with a fine of 6,500 Swedish kronor (£535/$700).



Sweden's War on Free Speech

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/1207 ... ree-speech

Apparently, turning in fellow Swedes to the authorities for alleged "hate speech" is now viewed in Sweden as "heroic".

"One can criticize fascism or Nazism, but why not Islam? Why should Islam have any protection status?" — Denny, a 71-year-old pensioner, on trial for "incitement to hatred".

Instead of using its limited resources to protect its citizens from the violent onslaught against them, Sweden is waging a legal war on its pensioners for daring to speak out against the same violent onslaught from which the state is failing to protect them.
#15035245
When we look at the mainstream, we find an increase in far right wing movements in power, or close to it - Trump, Orban, Duterte, Bolsonaro, the Front National in France . Thankfully, Salvini and his League have lost power in Italy. When we look at the mainstream, we find an increase in far right wing movements in power, or close to it - Trump, Orban, Duterte, Bolsonaro, the Front National in France . Thankfully, Salvini and his League have lost power in Italy. But there's nowhere in Europe or the west where the far left is growing in power. You're just making that up. It's rare for the centre-left to be in power.

anasawad wrote:The only one that is in a country that is supposed to be a liberal democracy is Trump. Even though it's actually an oligarchy, but anyways.
And I'm making that up?

France is most definitely a liberal democracy; in the last presidential election, 2nd place was taken by the leader of the far right Front National. Hungary is an EU member; until Orban got power, it would have been classed as a liberal democracy. We can see that in the Press Freedom Index, it has drifted from the top 25 for freedom before 2010 (when Orban was elected) to 87th this year. Brazil has arguably become a liberal democracy - but Bolsonaro wants that to stop (as does Orban). The Philippines have a significant population with multi-party elections, and had been becoming more liberal; Duterte was a regression for them.

What you had made up was that "when we look at the mainstream and the laws, the right isn't the one growing in power, infact the right wing is being shunned out in most places. It's the far left growing in power in many countries in Europe and the west in general and it's the far left, more and more, shaping the legal grounds." Nowhere in the west is the far left gaining power. I notice you haven't tried to give an example. While I can point out where the far right has been making gains. And in other western countries, parties further to the right than the existing centre-right ones have been making gains - Germany, Austria, the UK.

To give direct examples, compare Amazon to HSBC or Goldman Sachs or Google internally. You'll see the difference and what I mean.

Are you seriously saying that HSBC, Goldman Sachs or Google are pandering to the far left? That's absurd. Who or what on earth has given you that idea?
#15035246
anasawad wrote:@Pants-of-dog

Not in mass, not at the moment, but trying to.


So you are now switching your argument from “progressives are trying to oppress people” to “progressives are not trying to oppress people, but they secretly want to”.

The second new argument is not actually an argument. It is unverifiable speculation about motives.

I did, It's the part right below this one.


Can you be more specific? Are you discussing the possible cases in Germany?

Well, exact numbers I'm not sure, I haven't searched all of the countries yet.
But in Germany around 1400 people last years fined or arrested.
That's a large number for a police force saying it's finding it very difficult to crack down hate speech online and working to expand their capabilities on doing so.


Can you provide more information than an unsupported number?
#15035248
@Prosthetic Conscience
When we look at the mainstream, we find an increase in far right wing movements in power, or close to it - Trump, Orban, Duterte, Bolsonaro, the Front National in France . Thankfully, Salvini and his League have lost power in Italy. When we look at the mainstream, we find an increase in far right wing movements in power, or close to it - Trump, Orban, Duterte, Bolsonaro, the Front National in France . Thankfully, Salvini and his League have lost power in Italy. But there's nowhere in Europe or the west where the far left is growing in power. You're just making that up. It's rare for the centre-left to be in power.


And as I responded before to this:
Because those are already considered bad and evil and are fought against by every one and they'll never last.
Them existing, again, does not mean that totalitarianism isn't on the rise from the far left and it doesn't mean it's not a problem. Two wrongs don't make a right.

And in my view, yes, the totalitarian elements on the left, especially among the far-left progressive movement, are far far more dangerous than any Trump or right-wing movement.
We already know Trump is shit, everyone does, and everyone will fight hem and stop hem.
The totalitarians inside the liberal movement will gradually destroy it from the inside, and not only the world as a whole will end up under the grip of different flavors of totalitarian ideologies then, but there won't be anything left to stand up to it.

And again with the comparison with the Islamic world; it's not groups like ISIS that are a threat, those are already seen as horrible and everyone fights them and shuts them down, it's institutions like Al-Azhar and the various offshoots of the Muslim brotherhood that grows like cancer in the background, changing laws and reforming social norms to their image all while everyone is too busy paying attention to the obvious evil like ISIS and the Taliban.


Back to your quotes:
France is most definitely a liberal democracy; in the last presidential election, 2nd place was taken by the leader of the far right Front National.

And she lost, you know why?
Because everyone moved to make sure she doesn't win. Even in Belarus, a country not in the EU, not in NATO, not related to pretty much anything happening in western Europe, we had hours of talks and discussions and coverages about it non stop, because everyone thought the fascists are making a come back and we should stop them.

Brazil has arguably become a liberal democracy - but Bolsonaro wants that to stop (as does Orban). The Philippines have a significant population with multi-party elections, and had been becoming more liberal; Duterte was a regression for them.

And so are many countries trying to reform and liberalize, and when the corruption starts within the liberal movement, the weakness wont show first in already established liberal countries, but in countries in the process of liberalizing.

Nowhere in the west is the far left gaining power. I notice you haven't tried to give an example. While I can point out where the far right has been making gains. And in other western countries, parties further to the right than the existing centre-right ones have been making gains - Germany, Austria, the UK.

Well, regarding the example of speech I mentioned, it would be the EU's code of conduct on illegal hate speech , the racial and religious hatred act in the UK along with the more recent adjustments that made the news from the UK to crack down on social media to stop "hateful and harmful content", Canada is a whole bag on its own in this regard.

Now, this is an ongoing process and, as far as I see it, have been gradually moving forward and expanding through the past several years specifically, so these things are increasing; But, nonetheless, it is, as I said, a growing cancerous element within the liberal movement and should be rooted out before it goes out of control.


Are you seriously saying that HSBC, Goldman Sachs or Google are pandering to the far left? That's absurd. Who or what on earth has given you that idea?

Actually yea, they are, just look at their social behaviors and policies.
Google and HSBC infact are the first to respond and pander to progressive activists both in their internal policies regarding staff and in their social and public policies.
They're obviously predatory corporations, but that's the default for both left and right-wing in a capitalist market.


Corporations being predatory doesn't mean they're right-wing, they're private corporations in a capitalist market, they'll always be predatory as a default, even if you established the most liberal green peaceful etc corporation, if it's not predatory in a capitalist market it'll die out and shut down.
#15035249
@Pants-of-dog
So you are now switching your argument from “progressives are trying to oppress people” to “progressives are not trying to oppress people, but they secretly want to”.

No, not really. I haven't changed my argument, you're just assuming I'm one of the right wingers on this forum.

I'm saying, as I said from the beginning, that the totalitarian elements in the progressive movements are indeed pushing forward and successfully passed many oppressive policies in many countries, primarily regarding censorship on speech, and although it's not on a massive scale that victimizes everyone as many on the alt-right would claim, it is, nonetheless, there and the only reason it's not on a massive scale is because it's new and due to technical shortcomings.
However, if we allowed it to grow within, it will indeed reach a large scale and would destroy the liberal movement and harm great many people in the process.

The reason why Germany is unable to crack down on all hate speech and hate crime isn't because they don't want to or not trying, but simply because the police still doesn't have enough resources and not prepared for a new medium.
The reason why the UK count nearly a 100 thousand hate crime but doesn't counter all isn't because they don't want to or not trying to, they're, they simply lack the resources for the moment, even though the laws have already passed.

Can you provide more information than an unsupported number?

Germany already has hate speech laws, and with the netword enforcement act, it is expanding its capabilities in cracking down on it with occasional fines and arrests.
And they already began giving out fines to social media companies to crack down and comply as well.
It's in the news.
#15035263
anasawad wrote:No, not really. I haven't changed my argument, you're just assuming I'm one of the right wingers on this forum.

I'm saying, as I said from the beginning, that the totalitarian elements in the progressive movements are indeed pushing forward and successfully passed many oppressive policies in many countries, primarily regarding censorship on speech, and although it's not on a massive scale that victimizes everyone as many on the alt-right would claim, it is, nonetheless, there and the only reason it's not on a massive scale is because it's new and due to technical shortcomings.
However, if we allowed it to grow within, it will indeed reach a large scale and would destroy the liberal movement and harm great many people in the process.

The reason why Germany is unable to crack down on all hate speech and hate crime isn't because they don't want to or not trying, but simply because the police still doesn't have enough resources and not prepared for a new medium.
The reason why the UK count nearly a 100 thousand hate crime but doesn't counter all isn't because they don't want to or not trying to, they're, they simply lack the resources for the moment, even though the laws have already passed.


Can you provide a specific example of this oppression?

Germany already has hate speech laws, and with the netword enforcement act, it is expanding its capabilities in cracking down on it with occasional fines and arrests.
And they already began giving out fines to social media companies to crack down and comply as well.
It's in the news.


Can you provide a link to one of these stories?

——————————-

@Zionist Nationalist

Please quote the relevant text. Thanks.
#15035276
@Pants-of-dog
Can you provide a specific example of this oppression?

Can you provide a link to one of these stories?

Specific example? It's stats of "crimes" of people saying words.
The official number of hate crimes in the UK last year was 94 thousand.
https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk ... fullreport
Hate speech is of the more common hate crimes.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/a ... 64246.html

And in Germany, they're working on it;
https://www.dw.com/en/germany-dozens-of ... a-49080109
https://www.politico.eu/article/germany ... peech-law/
#15035278
If you look at your article about hate speech convictions in the UK, you will note that the people are charged with the crime of “illegal communication” which is defined as “using public electronic communications network in order to cause annoyance, inconvenience or needless anxiety”.

This would include online threats that have nothing to do with hate speech. Is there any way of determining how many of those were hate speech (in terms of bigotry and discrimination targeting minorities) and which were not?
#15035336
@Prosthetic Conscience
Those policies did not come from the right, they came from the left because the left was the one constantly lobbying for it over the years.
It coinciding with the right's desire for surveillance and a security state only made it worse.


@Pants-of-dog
Hard to tell, but considering that there are people who were arrested for saying homophobic or racist things online, then it covers all of them, and, irregardless of percentage, it is still a terrible policy that should be revoked.
#15035353
Rancid wrote:Everyone needs their boogie man.



I don’t.

You see, when my father and mother divorced, my father married a woman from Macassar, Sulawesi. As everyone should know, the dominant ethnic group in that area is the Bugis, historically noted for being ferocious pirates. In fact, the myth of the boogie man came from Dutch stories about Bugis pirates, which they to.d their kids as horror stories

So why do I need a boogie man when my step mother is the real thing?


Anyway, I digress.

@anasawad

I agree that what is going on in West is of the same nature as the activities of the Brotherhood. I don’t know much of what is happening on the ground in the ME, but I do know what happens in Indonesia.

There is a modern Islam movement, dominated by aspirational class urban Muslims. Typically well educated. They are pushing a rather intolerant version of Islam on to Indonesian society. Status and power are very important to these aspirational class Muslims. An example movement is Hizb ur Tahrir, but there are other groups besides.


Basically, these progressive Muslim modernists are exactly the same sort of people as the Western progressive. They have very similar ways of looking at the world. I’d also say the Islamic extremists have a very similar way of looking at the world as the far right white supremacists. This probably shouldn’t be surprising as both the West and the Umma share a basic Abrahamic set of beliefs as a core culture.


Regrettably, Western progressives just can’t look in the mirror. They seem completely incapable of admitting to fault. Given their claim to power has a moral basis, I guess they can’t admit to fault without losing status. After all, they must believe they are the good guys.

It follows from a belief that one is the good guy that someone else must be the bad guy. And of course there must be victims to rescue from the bad guy. Hence all the talk about who can claim to be a victim.


But why? If you look at western economics for the last 50 years, you will observe a rising level of economic inequality. When there is a growing gap between the haves and have nots, there must be a system of prejudice that justifies the exclusion of the have nots. In the west, the dominant belief that most accepted was civil rights at the time (1970s).
So that is the belief system cooped to build the prejudice against those who were to become the new have nots, the white working class. Hence all the stuff about minorities, women, transgender, etc.


Basically rights for minorities were over emphasised and general rights were down played. In effect the aspirational class took to itself the prerogative of choosing who has rights and who doesn’t. The minorities were dependent on the aspirational class progressives and thus not a challenge to their power, while the white majority was a rival to their ambition for total social control.


Regarding universalism. Pax Americana needed it to spread their control in the wake of European imperial collapse. Liberalism went from a system enshrined in nation states to a universal system of beliefs more akin to religion. The problem with universalism is that it tends to intolerance.


So you put those things together, aspirational class using accepted moral causes to assert their political hegemony within western countries, and the needs of Pax Americana for universalism, and you get contemporary progressive liberalism, featuring positive rights for designated groups, intolerance of difference, and extreme moral self assured smugness.


But, I totally agree this outcome is not liberal in any meaningful sense. Liberalism is supposed to be about freedom from those who control the instruments of power.
#15035354
anasawad wrote:Hard to tell, but considering that there are people who were arrested for saying homophobic or racist things online, then it covers all of them, and, irregardless of percentage, it is still a terrible policy that should be revoked.


Well, we do not know how many people were arrested for saying homophobic or racist things online or what they were.

Why is punishing such speech a terrible policy and why should it be revoked?
#15035366
Reichstraten wrote:Sure, but that doesn't make it murder. Is wearing condoms murder too?

I haven't claimed wearing condoms is murder. I approve of wearing condoms for birth control, but not abortion, which I believe is murder and not simply another birth control method.

Prosthetic Conscience wrote:The threads about 'antifa' I see on PoFo are typical examples of the hysteria and detachment from reality of right wingers.

You are obviously ignorant of Antifa in America.

Prosthetic Conscience wrote:It's the right wing who are encouraging death squads (Duterte), burning the remaining forests (Bolsonaro) and locking up innocent children (Trump).

Here you show yor ignorance again. Trump is not locking up innocent children. That is simply a left-wing talking point of the Democrats for political purposes.
#15035404
Pants-of-dog wrote:Why is punishing such speech a terrible policy and why should it be revoked?

It doesn't matter what type of speech it is, it is a matter of principle and self-preservation.
Whatever policy you use against your opponents when you're in power will be used against you when you're not.

If you think the right-wing movements are of such danger at this point in time, then don't you think it is best not to create the police state they desire for them?
#15035453
anasawad wrote:It doesn't matter what type of speech it is, it is a matter of principle and self-preservation.
Whatever policy you use against your opponents when you're in power will be used against you when you're not.

If you think the right-wing movements are of such danger at this point in time, then don't you think it is best not to create the police state they desire for them?


How would punishing hate speech be used against people fighting racism and bigotry?
  • 1
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
  • 9
  • 16
Canadian Federal Election

I already explained that. It involves democracy an[…]

What does she mean when she mentions white suprem[…]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bk-BP[…]

Of course, despite both your truthful and excel[…]