[skinster]

[Patrickov]

https://twitter.com/ajitxsingh/status/1184228079469842432?s=20

Two wrongs do not make a right. Is this Lebensunwertes Leben using this to justify oppression against us?

[JohnRawls]

https://twitter.com/ajitxsingh/status/1184228079469842432?s=20

Don't act stupid skinsterina. Support for the Greens in UK is around 6%. Support for the Greens in US is around 2-3%. In Europe it varies from 2-10% in every country. Alt-Right has more support in Europe compared to the Green movement in almost every state, may be even all the states of Europe.

Yet the extinction rebellion wants to jump under cars, block traffic and parade every week for the last half a year. That is not how democracy works.

Now compare it to HK where support against extradition bill is over 50%.

[Hong Wu]

The LeBron thing was pretty lol. He was like "that dude should have waited a week to send that Tweet" and everyone freaked out on him. I was like, LeBron should have waited a week to send that tweet.

[benpenguin]

Well... a lot of the protesters are ignorant, xenophobic and all round pretty clueless about China and international politics.
But so is every average Joe on earth - most of us don't read extensively on history and politics and just do what our gut tell us. It was the inept and amoral ruling class in Hong Kong, and the suffocating politics driven by US China rivalry, that had in Hong Kong up in arms. It's their shit to fix, and I wish CY Leung, the police and the triads to burn in hell.
I also wish the protestors to pick up a history book or two once in a while. But does it matter what I wish?

[Presvias]

True, but you can be aware of the limitations of your own knowledge (despite whatever rubbish putdowns some try to come out with -- as many dialectical cripples often do on this irksome site.. not referring to you, of course) and it can help you not fall for CIA propaganda, or, you know, not intimidatewives/kids of police, or to not attack/harass mainlanders or their biz/property when they've done nothing wrong.

I think that stuff is quite amoral too. All this rhetoric about blood, guts, everyone burning in lakes of fire, etc, it's like an episode of Angel where the world's ending. If you think such nasty thoughts and dwell on them, they might come to fruition... like I said to the guy before when he willed Trump to send troops over... be ever so careful what you wish for, because it might just come true.

Worshipping bad meme stuff, even as a joke, is a bad idea. That pepe rubbish has bad psychological connotations whether the protesters are aware of it or not, as does the "illuminati pyramid" and "missing eye" pepe variations, those things elicit negative reactions I think, nothing is about asking for positive change or a great reformation...it's negative Trumpian burn burn burn, lakes of fire, destroy the establishment, tear it all down. An apocalyptic episode of Angel... it's not going to lead to good things unless the protesters WANT GOOD THINGS and not just negative, oppositional stuff.

[Atlantis]

Well... a lot of the protesters are ignorant, xenophobic and all round pretty clueless about China and international politics.
But so is every average Joe on earth - most of us don't read extensively on history and politics and just do what our gut tell us. It was the inept and amoral ruling class in Hong Kong, and the suffocating politics driven by US China rivalry, that had in Hong Kong up in arms. It's their shit to fix, and I wish CY Leung, the police and the triads to burn in hell.
I also wish the protestors to pick up a history book or two once in a while. But does it matter what I wish?

You are always quick to blame everybody, except for the real culprit: Beijing's totalitarian rulers who are on autopilot to squash the little freedom people in Hong Kong have.

I agree with you that the protesters don't act wisely, but to require wisdom of a mass movement is a tall order. The absence of leaders may seem an advantage since it makes it harder for the authorities to squash the protests; however, in the end, the protests are condemned to failure without a wise leadership that can moderate the protests so it stays below the threshold of PLA intervention.

[benpenguin]

You are always quick to blame everybody, except for the real culprit: Beijing's totalitarian rulers who are on autopilot to squash the little freedom people in Hong Kong have.

Well, I am usually reluctant to assign blame to China - guess I have a soft spot for them. My view for them is more of a mixed bag. Quoting from myself:

...I don't think most Hong Konger - even the pro-Beijing bootlickers, fully understand what Beijing wants. China is a powerful empire, and powerful empires throughout history are all very difficult to deal with. But as a city state sitting on an empire's border, your fate really depends on how you deal with her.
China does not want to destroy Hong Kong culture (they don't even care what it is supposed to be), nor impose the same system - they simply want a Hong Kong that will never be used against the motherland, nor harbour her enemies. Hence they wish to teach our kids her version of history instead of her enemies, her achievements and to negotiate a way to catch her criminals and enemies. For any other country, these are reasonable expectations. But this is China, and for her there is a special place of fear and hatred in Hong Kong, and that some of us will never accept her.
China was usually patient - Deng, Jiang and Hu are willing to take it slow with regards to Hong Kong, there are occasional conflicts but the CCP was usually quite gentle comparing to how they handle mainland. But emperor Xi has no such patience, nor does his enemies. He will not accept disloyal subjects while he is fighting his enemies both internal and external. Thus starting CY Leung, the hawkish pro-Beijing faction is born in Hong Kong.
From their perspective, Hong Kong is a subject of China and must know its place by any means necessary - lawful or not. They are willing to go to any lengths none of their predecessors have dared - violent police, triads - whatever means necessary.
The emperor made us an offer. "You want to choose your CE? Fine. You may choose from one of my approved subjects - you can have your voice in politics if you so wish - as long as my will is obeyed." For me, this offer would have solved many problems, but for my folks - simply having a China element within our politics is unacceptable, let alone letting them have the final say - well, this is exactly why we are not allowed universal suffrage in the first place. But I digress...

China is our "force of nature" - Hong Kong needs better statesmanship internally and to the mainland and that should have been the responsibility of our government. Oppressive as they are, China is not looking to micromanage Hong Kong, just to safeguard her own interest. They would have tolerated some concessions, if our government knows what to ask for, and how to ask for it.
China might have been the enemy of liberal politics, but shouldn't be to Hong Kong.

[benpenguin]

True, but you can be aware of the limitations of your own knowledge (despite whatever rubbish putdowns some try to come out with -- as many dialectical cripples often do on this irksome site.. not referring to you, of course) and it can help you not fall for CIA propaganda, or, you know, not intimidatewives/kids of police, or to not attack/harass mainlanders or their biz/property when they've done nothing wrong.

External meddling is always present in every unrest, all times in history. I mean - if you are the CIA agent looking after China, can you tell your boss you are just chilling around? As for violent acts of protesters - they are usually able to present a causes belli of why the victims are targeted, but you will have to check their sites to find out - blue newspapers only focus on the act itself. Whether their motives are justified, that's up for debate.

I think that stuff is quite amoral too. All this rhetoric about blood, guts, everyone burning in lakes of fire, etc, it's like an episode of Angel where the world's ending. If you think such nasty thoughts and dwell on them, they might come to fruition... like I said to the guy before when he willed Trump to send troops over... be ever so careful what you wish for, because it might just come true.

Worshipping bad meme stuff, even as a joke, is a bad idea. That pepe rubbish has bad psychological connotations whether the protesters are aware of it or not, as does the "illuminati pyramid" and "missing eye" pepe variations, those things elicit negative reactions I think, nothing is about asking for positive change or a great reformation...it's negative Trumpian burn burn burn, lakes of fire, destroy the establishment, tear it all down. An apocalyptic episode of Angel... it's not going to lead to good things unless the protesters WANT GOOD THINGS and not just negative, oppositional stuff.

Just happened to be reading KMT vs CCP history lately - suddenly understood why there is a need for the "vanguard of the revolution", because people need a vision of what they want to achieve. The masses know what they don't like, but they don't know why they don't like it, what they really want, or whether it is realistic, and how to achieve it. But having a leader also means having vulnerability. I guess that's the choice every revolutionary will have to make. Looking at Hong Kong though - I don't think it can end anywhere other than a big bloodbath.

[Presvias]

Yeah you're absolutely right about all of that, and yeah my words may have sounded a tad too presumptive where justification of certain acts is concerned..

I hope you're wrong about the bloodbath thing of course, but it does look like you're right. Ultimately, this is what I kind of hoped might happen...

What do you expect, when they're facing the march towards the full implementation of the demonic social credit system, full extradition law and total repression?

No human being deserves that.

The West is terrible, but one can surely understand why any reasonable adult would be driven out of fear & desperation, to try to halt the advance of these draconian measures for as long as they possibly can?

I believe there are very intelligent folks out there who'll rightly play the west and china off against each other; obtaining max autonomy & freedom as is possible under Chinese rule and halting the march of harmonisation with 'mainland' laws etc; whilst rebuffing the west's attempts to get their sticky paws on Chinese power..and possibly on HK.

I sincerely wish them all the best in that endeavour. I think it's the best they can hope for.

Obviously, sanctions by the west, or worse, war, would be terrible. Secession would also imho be bad news... and China would never allow it without a fight.

Just my opinion as a gwailu.

That was a reply to crantag I think..

[benpenguin]

this is what I kind of hoped might happen...

Well, both sides want a bloodbath on the other side, so they will both get it. Looking at the momentum now, it's just a cycle of escalation and vendetta. It will serve no purpose other than to prolong the conflict, and eventually exhaust the revolution. Hong Kong's government is already beaten and broken, but it still cannot fall because of China. Fighting it further is simply hitting your head at a brick wall.
In the end, the only winner is the police hawks and the most violent provocateurs. The crazier things get, the stronger they thrive - if the conflict ends, these people will not survive. I cannot wait for that day.

[foxdemon]

The Guardian has an interesting article on why they think Xi hasn’t sent the tanks in.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/16/china-hong-kong-xi-jinping

The author believes such a move would undermine mainland middle class confidence in the CCP administration. Is that true?


Another article about China’s indignation toward America’s new laws to support HK autonomy.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/16/china-warns-against-meddling-as-us-house-passes-bill-backing-hong-kong-protesters

It seems to be the one thing a majority of Americans can agree on. Trump will need to be careful how he handles the HK crisis. If he does his usual deal making stuff and abandons HK, he might find he losses the next election.

[benpenguin]

If the aim is to open fire and kill HK protesters, then the police can do it. What would sending tanks achieve?

[foxdemon]

If the aim is to open fire and kill HK protesters, then the police can do it. What would sending tanks achieve?

They could have done the same thing during the Tiananmen Square protests, but they sent the tanks in. Why did they do so then?

I agree with you though. Why send in tanks to quell civil unrest? Suitably trained paramilitary forces are more appropriate.

But what of the news article? Would there be sympathy in the mainland if the government used force to crush the protests?

[benpenguin]

They could have done the same thing during the Tiananmen Square protests, but they sent the tanks in. Why did they do so then?

- CCP army back then has no anti-riot equipment nor experience, just guns and military training.
- Local Beijing security forces are reluctant to move onto the protesters, so reinforcements were brought in.
- The reinforcing military police also has no anti-riot training - they came in, obeyed order and did the only think they know, then it quickly went out of hand.
On the other hand, the HKPF has dehumanized the protesters enough to kill and maim without Beijing's help

But what of the news article? Would there be sympathy in the mainland if the government used force to crush the protests?

Depends on what their media tells them, so the answer is no. e.g. Did the world gave China any sympathy when it suffered terrorist attacks in Xinjiang? Or any credit when they lead the world in renewable energy production?
As I say - we are only as good as our knowledge.

[Presvias]

Do you think China started this knowing what would happen; edging for this?

A US bill that could strip Hong Kong of its special trading status by subjecting the city to an annual review of democratic freedoms would hurt Hongkongers and play into the hands of Beijing, according to a former top envoy for Asia in the Trump administration.
In a wide-ranging interview, Susan Thornton, who served as acting assistant secretary of state for East Asian and Pacific affairs, said passing the bipartisan Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act would be a “huge mistake” that would end up “punishing exactly the wrong people

https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/politics ... -will-only

[benpenguin]

The bill is to sanction personnel in HK government and subject Hong Kong's special status to a yearly review. The first part will go ahead to which everyone is celebrating, the second part is just not going to happen.
Advanced as it is, Shanghai and Shenzhen is under Chinese law that Western capitalists cannot operate with confidence - Hong Kong however, is still essential to them as a secure (read: lawless) money gateway, they will not touch Hong Kong as long as they still want to do business with China.

[Patrickov]

The bill is to sanction personnel in HK government and subject Hong Kong's special status to a yearly review. The first part will go ahead to which everyone is celebrating, the second part is just not going to happen.
Advanced as it is, Shanghai and Shenzhen is under Chinese law that Western capitalists cannot operate with confidence - Hong Kong however, is still essential to them as a secure (read: lawless) money gateway, they will not touch Hong Kong as long as they still want to do business with China.

While I wish to provide updates and provide my two cents (or less) on my Honourable Friends' discussions, I currently only have time to make one post, so here it is.

I wish my fellow Hongkonger to define and provide references to support the claim of Hong Kong being "a lawless money gateway" here. As far as I know, almost the whole of my social circle see the opposite being true.

[benpenguin]

Long story short, lawless as in well designed loopholes in commercial law for rich people to abuse, and also a tax haven. So everybody can park their money here - it's how Hong Kong got rich!

[Patrickov]

Long story short, lawless as in well designed loopholes in commercial law for rich people to abuse, and also a tax haven. So everybody can park their money here - it's how Hong Kong got rich!

I agree that this statement is generally correct, although if the law is as "full of loophole" as my Fellow Hongkonger suggests, it would have been so easy for the rich to exploit everyone else that, the breaking point would have been reached long before now.