Trump hands over Syria to Turkey then threatens to "totally destroy & obliterate" her economy if... - Page 13 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15042490
In front of the world, Trump took a phone call from a Turkish strongman and instantly ordered some of America's finest - Special Forces soldiers serving on the line in Syria - to slink away with their base with their tail between their legs, betray their comrades in arms, and abandon their mission to defeat ISIS.

Apparently he wasn't satisfied with simply demoralizing and undermining America's first defenders, our law enforcement, foreign service, and intelligence professionals. Now he's turning our military commitments - sealed in the blood and sweat of volunteers - into worthless posturing and deceit.

It's appalling that some consider this brazen cowardice "tough" leadership.
#15042494
jimjam wrote:In front of the world, Trump took a phone call from a Turkish strongman and instantly ordered some of America's finest - Special Forces soldiers serving on the line in Syria - to slink away with their base with their tail between their legs, betray their comrades in arms, and abandon their mission to defeat ISIS.

Apparently he wasn't satisfied with simply demoralizing and undermining America's first defenders, our law enforcement, foreign service, and intelligence professionals. Now he's turning our military commitments - sealed in the blood and sweat of volunteers - into worthless posturing and deceit.

It's appalling that some consider this brazen cowardice "tough" leadership.


Wow, you sound just like the neocons. This kind of unhinged patriotic militarism would be right at home in The Weekly Standard. I always knew the liberal anti-war movement was all about partisan politics and had nothing to do with principle and this just confirms it for all of us so thanks.
#15042517
Trump's demeanor is gruff, but nobody has been able to demonstrate a shred of official corruption from what I can see.


:lol: :lol:

Really Blackjack. That is rich even for you.

@Sivad Wow, you sound just like the neocons. This kind of unhinged patriotic militarism would be right at home in The Weekly Standard. I always knew the liberal anti-war movement was all about partisan politics and had nothing to do with principle and this just confirms it for all of us so thanks.


So that is what you think, 'eh? :lol:
#15042531
late wrote:Erdogan is an autocrat that severely degraded democracy in Turkey. Because things are not going well, in Turkey, he needs to distract his people.

Invading Syria plays well with his base. Turkey has revanchist claims with respect to the areas in Syria where Turkmen live. His base also shares his bigotry against Kurds. Since the Kurds no longer have American support, he will get to have some military victories, for a while.


Erdogan is politically a populist chameleon having autocratic tendencies, there is no question about that. And his Syrian policies since the onset of Syrian civil war is mostly nothing but failure upon failure, stupidity upon stupidity.

It is also true that he hopped in the nationalist bandwagon since 2015's summer for his political survival.

That said, his cross border operations towards Al-Bab first, Afrin later, and now Tel Abiad-Rasulayn region had and has broad-spectrum support from perhaps 90% of the Turkish population for a simple reason: we want to be safe and secure. A replica of what had happened in Northern Iraq 30 years ago cannot be allowed. We cannot suffer the consequences of another terrorist nest created just outside our borders. Period.

late wrote:Slaughtering Kurdish civilians will create terrorism. If you want to end terrorism, you need to come to terms. You don't do that with guns, unless we're talking genocide or mass slaughter.


What makes you think Turks are out there to slaughter Kurds. If you look at the timeline Tel Abiad and Rasulayn operations on map, it's classical pincer style sieges , i.e. one exit route is intentionally left open for the armed militants to leave as soon as they realize their positions are untenable. That reduces the possibility of devastating street battles in dense population centers, thus minimizes the occurrence of unnecessary civilian deaths.

That is quite different from what Assad regime did in Aleppo, what Iraqis did in Mosul or what PKK+USA did in Raqqa. These towns are still in ruins. Yet, Afrin captured from PKK by Turks with the same pincer style siege remained intact.

late wrote:Nice spin, tho, better than what we usually see here.


In my post, I offered nothing but veritable facts. In this age of post-truth, facts might be less popular than selective perceptions and ideological comfort zones, I totally understand that. Of course, my understanding of that does not necessitate my respect. In other words, I don't give a shit. ;)

rugoz wrote:Depends on their goals and grievances.


Translation: One man's terrorist can be another man's freedom fighter.

I think not.

rugoz wrote:France is in Mali at the invitation of the democratically elected government. Nobody has asked Turkey to get into Syria, in fact everybody opposes it.


France..... In Mali.... Invitation..... By democratically elected government.... :lol:

Did the democratically elected government of Syria invite France to join Americans to "provide security" in northeastern Syria?

Or did the democratically elected government Yemen invite French pilots to hop in Saudi jets and bring death and destruction to Yemeni people?

Perhaps democratically elected government of Libya asked France to arm and nurture warlord Haftar, so he can topple the democratically elected government of Libya.

:roll:

Atlantis wrote:There can be no doubt that Turkey fueled the proxy war in Syria and that Turkey supports all kinds of rebels and thugs including Al Qaeda and ISIS fighters to do its dirty work in Syria.


Yes, that was the original sin that brought us all to where we are.

But, remember Turkey was not all alone. She was barely tailgating USA, Europe and Saudis in their endeavor to topple Assad. They all left the theater somehow with washed clean hands. And, we are left with dealing the mess they left behind.

If Erdogan had turned away when Americans, Europeans and Saudis approached us with their "fantastic" plans to topple Assad, and had kept the border sealed for everybody except humanitarian aid crews and refugees, this bloody civil war would have ended years ago in a substantially less bloody manner.

Atlantis wrote: Terror is blind and Erdogan's Jihadist proxies will sooner or later turn against Turkey. If you have learned anything from the Mujaheddin in Afghanistan, as you claim, you should know that.


I totally concur.

Atlantis wrote:50 million Kurds in the ME and the diaspora aren't going to disappear into thin air. Turkish aggression and massacres of Kurds will eternalize the conflict. The only way to achieve security is for Turkey to make peace with the Kurds and allow them the autonomy they require. To let loose a bunch of hate-filled Jihadists and criminals on the population of Northern Syria is no way of achieving that.


Amasya Manifesto of 1919, which happens to be the official initiation of Turkish War of Independence against imperialist WW1 victors, says: "Only the will and resolution of the nation can save the independence of the nation."

Only the will and resolution of the nation...

Once Kurds have the will and resolution of having a separate country of their own, no power in this world, neither Turkey nor USA, can stop them. That simple. I have no doubt and no reservation about it.

Will I see it happening in my life time? Probably not.

And successive episodes of western interference of baiting Kurds with some illusions to induce them doing West's dirty job and then abandoning them, do Kurds no good.

It's not your place to instruct them when and how they should get a separate country for themselves.
#15042541
foxdemon  wrote:Trump, and indeed @noemon , are right about Europe lacking he intestinal fortitude to deal with instability on their own frontier.

If the Europeans were to mobilise some of their military power and deploy it in Greece and Bulgaria, Erdogan and his generals would have to reassess their calculations and redeploy part of their force to the West. This would greatly reduce the Turks prospects of success in Syria and would likely result in Putin being able to implement his peace plan. Strong though the Turks might be, they can’t fight on two fronts.


Once I told to @noemon. Now, I repeat for you:

There is no easier, logistically unpainful and entertaining exercise in the world than moving imaginary armies around. ;)

As for the Turkish side... If memory is not failing me, Syrian+Iraqi+Iranian border regions are the task areas of 2nd Army headquartered in Malatya.

1st Army headquartered in Istanbul defends Thrace, straits, Istanbul and the rest of Marmara region.

4th Army headquartered in Izmir defends Aegean and Mediterranean shore regions.

If the reports in Turkish media are to be believed, there are 8,500 Turkish troops deployed for the operation. Thus I don't think 2nd army needed any help from other army headquarters at all.
#15042562
At one point, the US president declared the Kurdish insurgents in Turkey (the PKK), strongly linked to Kurdish forces in Syria, were “more of a terrorist threat than Isis”. His remarks closely mirrored Ankara’s talking points, but were starkly at odds with US intelligence and defence assessments which identify Isis as a direct threat to US security.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... eave-syria

Trump understands nothing as we've all come to expect and simply repeats the last thing that someone tells him. This time he is Erdogan's mouthpiece. Next weak; Kashmir and India - a love story, brought to us by Narendra Modi. :D
#15042563
In front of the world, Trump took a phone call from a Turkish strongman and instantly ordered some of America's finest - Special Forces soldiers serving on the line in Syria - to slink away with their base with their tail between their legs, betray their comrades in arms, and abandon their mission to defeat ISIS.


Trump only refused to send American troops to save the Kurds who have been fighting ISIS on the US side. From a viewpoint of Turkey, the Kurds are terrorists who are trying to carve out their own territory in northern Turkey. It is wise to stay out of the internal conflict between Turkey and the Kurds. The Kurds were useful proxies to go after another kind of terrorists but America is not obliged to support their independence movement, risking Special Forces soldiers' lives.

Last edited by ThirdTerm on 16 Oct 2019 23:41, edited 2 times in total.
#15042564
MadMonk wrote:At one point, the US president declared the Kurdish insurgents in Turkey (the PKK), strongly linked to Kurdish forces in Syria, were “more of a terrorist threat than Isis”. His remarks closely mirrored Ankara’s talking points, but were starkly at odds with US intelligence and defence assessments which identify Isis as a direct threat to US security.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... eave-syria

Trump understands nothing as we've all come to expect and simply repeats the last thing that someone tells him. This time he is Erdogan's mouthpiece. Next weak; Kashmir and India - a love story, brought to us by Narendra Modi. :D


As opposed to wishy washy western liberals who have no understanding of history, or other countries...and who don't at all follow popularised foreign trends...proven by the virtual abandonment of Greece.. :roll: what a jar of penis...
#15042566
The Guardian wrote:Global plot that lured Kurds' hero into trap
Abdullah Ocalan's arrest ignited furious protest across Europe. Helena Smith in Athens and Chris Morris in Ankara report on the international operation that led him into the clutches of the Turkish government
Sun 21 Feb 1999 02.41 GMT

The Lear jet carrying Abdullah Ocalan touched down on Greek soil on 29 January. That evening, at her seaside home near Athens, 77-year-old Voula Damianakou - one of the country's most popular authors - was suprised to hear a knock at the door.
Outside stood an agitated Antonis Naxakis, a retired rear admiral and one of Ocalan's closest friends. He had hired the plane that had brought the Kurdish leader from St Petersburg to Athens, arranging - with the help of ultra-nationalist Socialist MPs - for him to be whisked through the VIP channel.

Now Naxakis asked Damianakou, celebrated in Greece as a resistance fighter during the German occupation, to give Ocalan a bed for the night.

'At first, we thought it was a joke,' she said. 'But when people knock at my door I don't forget our country's tradition of hospitality. Before me was a man who was being persecuted.

'I've never forgotten my own days during the German occupation, when people would open the door to me, so I felt I owed it to Ocalan and I took him in, gave him dinner and a bed for the night.'

Ocalan, accompanied by his secretary and two bodyguards, told her he was worried that the Greek government would make concessions to the Turks through the Americans. Last week, as Kurds rioted across Europe, his fears had proved justified.

But on that night, 29 January, he found moments of solace. 'We spoke about everything, especially ancient Greek civilisation and Shakespeare, which interested him a lot,' said Damianakou.

He asked if she thought the Greek government would protect him; she reassured him, reminding him that Greece had always been pro-Kurdish.

'He was very tormented, and so tired that he slept, poor soul, until midday on Saturday.'

The next night Ocalan was taken to Naxakis's house, where it had been arranged he should meet Foreign Minister Theodoros Pangalos to discuss whether Greece would be prepared to grant him political asylum.

But instead of Pangalos it was Major Haralambos Stavrakakis, head of the Greek secret service EYP, who arrived.

He told Ocalan he could not stay in Greece, since the country did not want to risk a war with Turkey by harbouring the leader of the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), which has waged a 15-year struggle for autonomy in south-eastern Turkey.

But Stavrakakis did have a suggestion: he offered Ocalan shelter in an embassy, although it is not clear if he specified Nairobi. Ocalan said he would think about it.

It was the beginning of the end for the world's most wanted man. On 1 February, he had tried to reach Holland via Minsk. That attempt failed and his plane was forced to land in Corfu due to lack of fuel. Ocalan spent the night of 2 February in a Corfu safe-house provided by Greek intelligence.

He seems to have agreed to Greece's offers of refuge on Pangalos's assurance that it would be a temporary measure until Athens could negotiate political asylum with Holland or an African state. But Naxakis said Ocalan had no idea that he was being taken to Kenya - a country he would have turned down because of its heavy CIA presence following the bomb attack on the US Embassy last summer.

When Ocalan arrived in Nairobi on 2 February he was accompanied by four Kurdish associates and a Greek agent. One of the Kurds, Semsi Kilic, said the PKK leader did not know he was going to Kenya until he arrived there.

'I believe he thought he was going to South Africa,' she told the pro-Kurdish Med-TV last week.

Sources say the Greek government decided to send Ocalan to Kenya following intense pressure from Washington. 'The pressure was not only tough, it was vulgar,' said Serafeim Findanides, editor of the daily Eleftheroptypia.

'From what I've heard, Pangalos was told something like ''your mother will be fucked if you don't go along with this''.'

Since the early Eighties the US State Department has frequently portrayed Athens as home to some of the most dangerous home-grown terrorist groups in Europe. The CIA seized upon Ocalan's case as a golden opportunity for Greece to prove conclusively that it was no longer soft on terrorism.

European Union diplomats insist that Washington also saw the capture of Ocalan as the perfect repayment for Turkey's willingness to provide Nato with military airbases that have been used to stage bombing raids against Iraq.

'The whole thing was plotted by America, Turkey, Kenya and Greece. We were the middle men,' said Colonel Savvas Kalenterides, who was dispatched to Nairobi to take charge of the operation. 'As a Greek, I feel deeply ashamed about our role, which is why I have decided to talk.'

Last week - after the rebel leader had been at the compound for 12 days, and negotiations for his surrender had still not been completed - US officials reportedly began to lose their temper.

Last Monday Turkish Prime Minister Bulent Ecevit was in the middle of an important and controversial meeting with Iraq's Deputy Prime Minister, Tariq Aziz, when his private secretary interrupted with a handwritten note. A few minutes later, the Prime Minister excused himself. He had more pressing business to attend to: Operation Safari - the secret mission to capture Ocalan - was about to enter its decisive final phase.

It had begun 11 days earlier, on 4 February, when Turkey was tipped off by the US that Ocalan was in the Greek Embassy in Nairobi. Only 10 people in Ankara knew; any leak to Turkey's rumour-obsessed media could have scuppered the operation.

In a secret summit at the presidential palace that night, Ecevit and President Suleyman Demirel met the Chief of the General Staff and the head of Turkey's intelligence organisation, MIT.

They decided to dispatch a team of Turkey's elite soldiers, the Maroon Berets, to Africa. An executive jet was procured from one of Turkey's leading business magnates, who was told it was a matter of national security.

The Falcon 900B jet was chosen because it could fly back from Kenya to Turkey without having to refuel. It was painted blue and its Turkish markings replaced with a Malaysian flag. The Turkish team - including a doctor and a flight crew of three - flew first to the Ugandan capital, Kampala, where they waited for several days until given the all-clear to proceed to Nairobi.

There, in the Greek Embassy, Ocalan was - according to his supporters - still confident that Greece would find him asylum somewhere 'appropriate'. But as the days dragged on, he became increasingly impatient with his captivity in the Greek diplomatic compound.

Even Kurdish sources, speaking later, criticised him for using his mobile phone and walking around the grounds. The streets outside must have been crawling with foreign agents, waiting to pounce on their prey.

As American pressure on the Greek government intensified, Ocalan's demands took on a note of desperation. Last weekend a statement was released on his behalf appealing again for asylum in Italy, Greece or Russia. He was, he said, 'in great danger'.

By last Monday Ocalan's Kurdish companions, who are still stuck in the Greek Embassy, were extremely worried - and with good reason. That day the Kenyan authorities presented the Greek Ambassador, George Costoulas, with photographic evidence proving that Ocalan was on his property.

The ambassador told his Kurdish guests he had struck a deal with the Kenyans to fly the PKK leader and his friends to a European country of his choice. It is not clear whether the Greeks believed the offer was genuine, or had by now reluctantly caved in under American pressure.

Meanwhile, the Turkish team on standby in Uganda finally left for Nairobi at about 4pm on Monday.

Ocalan's preferred destination was the Netherlands. He wanted to take his case to a European court and propel his conflict with Turkey to the world stage. By early Monday evening the Kenyans had made it clear that if he did not leave, 'something might happen' that night.

Mystery still surrounds the exact circumstances of the journey from the embassy to the airport.

According to Kilic, the Kurdish activist who was present, five vehicles arrived which belonged to the Kenyan police and Interior Ministry. An argument over which car Ocalan should use to travel to the airport began and lasted for around half an hour. His associates wanted him to ride in the Greek ambassador's vehicle because it would - like the embassy compound - enjoy diplomatic immunity. But the Kenyans insisted that he travel in their Jeep. Kilic said Ocalan was suspicious, but believed he had no choice. A last-minute phone call from Greek Foreign Minister Pangalos seemed to offer reassurance. But once the convoy of cars departed, the game was up.

Ocalan was put in the Jeep without any of his associates. His vehicle sped away from the rest and arrived at the airport first. It appears that along the way he was drugged. The Jeep was surrounded by police as soon as it arrived at the airport.

The identities of all the people in the convoy may never be known. Were any Turks present? Any Americans? Many suspect US involvement, though Washington has insisted that it played no direct role. All Turkey's special forces had to do, it seems, was sit in their plane, waiting for Ocalan to walk into their trap.

The plan worked like a dream. Once the plane was safely airborne, the Turkish celebrations began: a military intelligence video released to an awestruck public showed agents wearing black balaclavas exchanging congratulations and high-fives as Ocalan sat quietly blindfolded and handcuffed.

At one stage the blindfold was removed and Ocalan was seen in close-up, drenched in sweat, bewildered and nervous. 'Welcome home,' an agent says. 'Thank you,' says Ocalan, 'I love Turkey and I love the Turkish people.'

The mission was so secret that when the plane tried to land at Istanbul airport it was initially refused permission because it had no flight plan. It circled above the city until an urgent call from Ankara to the control tower gave the required clearance.

Ocalan arrived in Turkey at 3am on Tuesday, 16 February. He is now incarcerated on an isolated prison island in the Sea of Marmara, south of Istanbul. All the other prisoners have been evacuated and Turkey has declared an exclusion zone for 10 miles around the island.

Sitting in his office in Ankara, Prime Minister Ecevit has been basking in the glow of a Turkish triumph. Now Operation Safari is over, he acknowledges that Turkey received some help, but refuses to identify any friends in high places. 'In the interest of not disturbing those parties who took part in this operation,' he said, 'I will use a local expression … ''Let us eat the grape and not ask where it came from''.'

In Greece, the political fallout has been intense and destructive. Greeks consider their country's bungling and duplicitous behaviour a national humiliation. Ocalan is seen as a folk hero by Greeks who have not forgotten their ancestors' own desperate fight against the Ottoman Turks. They have turned their anger on the government of Prime Minister Costas Simitis.

He has resisted calls for his own resignation, but on Thursday Pangalos and two other Ministers quit the government. Stavrakakis resigned the next day. A prosecutor has opened an investigation into Naxakis and his colleagues. On Wednesday, police ordered strict security measures to be insituted at all public buildings and foreign embassies until further notice.

Simitis sought to deflect the outrage to other EU nations. 'Greece fully carried out its moral duty … it should not have been presented with such a dilemma. But no European country or organisation was willing to take any initiative,' he said.

Ocalan had been on the run for almost six months since being forced under threat of military action by Turkey to leave Syria, his base for almost 18 years. On 9 October he was smuggled via Greece to Russia, where he was soon spotted by Israeli intelligence agents, who passed the information to the Turks. Under pressure from Ankara and Washington, the Russians told Ocalan he had to move on and he was offered a variety of destinations. But Ocalan made his own choice: a bold, high-profile gamble to go to Italy and apply for political asylum in the heart of Europe.

It didn't work. His presence in Italy sparked anti-Italian street protests across Turkey, as well as a furious diplomatic row between Rome and Ankara which still festers bitterly. Italy refused to extradite Ocalan to Turkey because the death penalty is legal there. Rome would have liked to send him to Germany, where there is also a warrant for his arrest, but the Germans did not want to touch this hottest of hot potatoes.


Finally - after much negotiation and arm-twisting - Italy persuaded Ocalan to leave on 16 January and he spent much of the next two weeks trying to gain permission to stay in Russia, where he still has many supporters among Communists and nationalists in the Russian parliament.

But the government in Moscow would not be moved, and Ocalan was kept waiting for a week at Nizhny Novgorod airport.

Under Turkish law, the Kurdish leader will be tried for treason. If found guilty, he could be executed or given 22,000 life sentences.

'The Kurdish people are desperate. They have lost their leader,' said Yasser Kaya, the president of the Kurdish parliament-in-exile. 'They are united in anger. I really don't know if the situation can now be controlled.'
#15042575
This is the account of the Greek agent tasked to accompany Ocalan, he disobeyed Greek state orders to throw him out of the Ambassador's House and for that he was dishonourably discharged and imprisoned. His account is most illuminating regarding the total lack of backbone that we were talking about earlier and how this is simply a deja vu in many ways.

Kalenteridis wrote:Stop the Turkish and international crime against Ocalan
by Savvas Kalèndéridès
20 years ago, the Kurds of Anatolia were struggling for the recognition of their culture by Turkey. Their leader, Abdullah Ocalan, first of all found refuge in Damascus, close to Hafez el-Assad, but was then kidnapped by Israël and Turkey after an international chase. He is still being held in a Turkish military base. It is since his incarceration that the Kurdish movement has begun to move closer to NATO. The officer of the Greek Intelligence services who accompanied him during his flight now speaks.

The abduction of Ocalan by Israel and Turkey
In the 1970s, Ocalan and his comrades fought for the democratic rights of the Kurds and the people of Turkey.

The Turkish state killed some of them, others were imprisoned, and others were forced into exile to the mountains.

And that’s because the Turkish state is afraid of democracy, because it does not want to give democratic rights to the people of Anatolia.

In the 1980s, Ocalan put the Kurdish Issue in the global spotlight and sought its political solution in order to give democratic rights to the Kurdish people and the other ethnic and religious groups in Anatolia.

The Turkish state has been conducting an international campaign, and by taking advantage of the strategic value of Anatolia for NATO and the West, it has made them jointly involved in the crime it is committing against the Kurds and the other ethnic and religious groups in Turkey.

In the 1990s, with social, political and democratic struggles, Ocalan liberated women from the oppression that they were suffering for decades and brought them to the forefront of social, cultural and political life.

In the 1990s, Ocalan spread to the other ethnic and religious groups of Anatolia the love and the need for common struggle for Freedom and Democracy.

In the 1990s he sought Peace with the Turkish state.

He pursued peace many times, with a unilateral ceasefire, and each time the Turkish state closed the doors of the reconciliation and responded with torture, imprisonment, unresolved murders of men, rape of women, setting villages on fire, bombing and desolating Kurdistan.

The last call for peace was on September 1, 1998, when he sent an open letter to the Turkish government, asking for peace to prevail and stop the war and the blood.

The response of the Turkish state was threats towards Syria in order to extradite him.

Then an international conspiracy began to take place to arrest the leader of the Kurdish liberation struggle, Mr. Ocalan.

His trip from Damascus to Athens, his departure on the same day for Moscow, where he stayed for 33 days, and his subsequent trip to Italy, where he stayed for 66 days.

He then went to Russia, from there to Tajikistan, then to San Petersburg, and after that came his transfer to Athens and the adventure in Minsk, Belarus and Nairobi.

For much of this adventure, I was next to Mr. Ocalan. I saw Netherlands and Belgium launching F-16 fighter jets and sealing their airspace in order to refuse entrance to the airplane that was carrying Mr. Ocalan.

I saw Germany violate its own Constitution and cancel the arrest warrant pending against the Kurdish leader so that Italy will not extradite him into Germany.

I saw US Undersecretary of State Strobe Talbot moving to Rome until he succeeded in deporting Ocalan from Italy.

I saw Italy becoming self-ridiculed and urging the Kurdish leader to leave the country, the same time that the President of the Italian Republic, the Prime Minister and the Minister of Justice made public statements, saying Mr. Ocalan would be given asylum.

I saw Yevgeni Primakov, a remarkable politician with a long service in the KGB and the Russian Foreign Ministry, bending over the pressures of his US counterpart, Madeleine Albright, and driving Mr. Ocalan out of Russia.

I saw the Greek government providing official guarantees to Mr. Ocalan, in order to go to Africa, in the country that had been proposed to him. This proposal, these guarantees I myself have transferred them to the Kurdish leader.

I saw the CIA stationchief in Ankara going to MIT offices a day after our landing in Nairobi and telling the Turkish government that he "has Ocalan in his hands and that he can deliver him to Turkey on the basis of an agreement."

I saw the head of the National Security Council of Israel visit Ankara, a day before our landing in Nairobi, and to collaborate for two days with MIT and the Operations Department of the Turkish Armed Forces, with no statements regarding the nature of this collaboration.

I saw the same Greek government that had given state guarantees to Ocalan, to give orders to a diplomat of the Greek state and to an active senior military officer to "throw out the leader of the Kurdish Liberation Movement from the ambassador’s home".

I saw the same Greek government that had given state guarantees, to look for help in hired muscles and when it couldn’t find any, to send a group of police officers to "throw out the leader of the Kurdish Liberation Movement from the ambassador’s home".

I saw the Kenyan government agree with the Greek Ambassador that he would give up an aircraft for the leader of the Kurdish Liberation Movement for a destination of his choice and the same day to abrogate the agreement, abduct Mr. Ocalan and hand him over to the Turks.

Almost 20 years have passed and Abdullah Ocalan remains a prisoner on an island, under horrible conditions that could best be described as white torture.

All his lawyers’ efforts for a trial in an International Court have proven to be in vain, and it seems like the same invisible hand coordinating the global conspiracy behind his arrest, is still pulling the strings and refusing him any form of real justice.

For years the Turkish government has been holding Abdullah Ocalan under solitary confinement, and there are concerns about his deteriorating health.

Now is the time, for cooperation between the democratic forces of all countries that participated in some way in the global conspiracy for his arrest, to put pressure on their governments, and to begin the countdown for the release of the Kurdish leader.

This is our debt to him and to the long-suffering Kurdish people.

It is also a debt to our own country.


The Dutch and the Belgians found a use for their aircraft..... :hmm:
#15042578
^ That's all true but I'm afraid Vanasulas second last post, except for the part about Turkey's 'benign intentions' towards the Kurds, is also true.

In fact, the ukusa and much of the EU have successfully played both you and Turkey against each other to great effect.

Vanasulas is right to point out French hypocrisy wrt Mali and earlier western intervention in Syria. In fact, this looks like some kind of purpose laid trap by the US to sort out the Kurdish problem and discredit Turkey, presumably with Putin pulling Trump's strings, because most of this benefits Putin; especially if NATO is weakened. And Russia is not friends with Greece either.. they would love to see you and Turkey fight each other.

And we all know the Rusdians own half of Cyprus now as well, God knows what their strange designs are on your land..
#15042581
They've already thrown their lot in with Assad in some cases..

Abandoned by U.S. in Syria, Kurds Find New Ally in American Foe
Under fire by Turkish forces, the militia that battled ISIS threw in its lot with Syria’s Russian-backed government.

Image
In northeastern Syria on Sunday, a funeral was held for a Kurdish political leader, civilians and Kurdish fighters.
In northeastern Syria on Sunday, a funeral was held for a Kurdish political leader, civilians and Kurdish fighters.CreditDelil Souleiman/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images

By Ben Hubbard, Charlie Savage, Eric Schmitt and Patrick Kingsley
Published Oct. 13, 2019
Updated Oct. 14, 2019
DOHUK, Iraq — Kurdish forces long allied with the United States in Syria announced a new deal on Sunday with the government in Damascus, a sworn enemy of Washington that is backed by Russia, as Turkish troops moved deeper into their territory and President Trump ordered the withdrawal of the American military from northern Syria.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytime ... s.amp.html

Don't be surprised if you get Kurdish terrorists blowing stuff up in yankland now..
#15042583
Vanasalus wrote:Translation: One man's terrorist can be another man's freedom fighter.

I think not.


I think yes. The Kurds in Turkey have been effectively disenfranchised. If you ask me it's their right to resist.

Vanasalus wrote:France..... In Mali.... Invitation..... By democratically elected government.... :lol:

Did the democratically elected government of Syria invite France to join Americans to "provide security" in northeastern Syria?

Or did the democratically elected government Yemen invite French pilots to hop in Saudi jets and bring death and destruction to Yemeni people?

Perhaps democratically elected government of Libya asked France to arm and nurture warlord Haftar, so he can topple the democratically elected government of Libya.


That completely misses the point. You were the one emphasizing the importance of "democracy and the rule of law", yet the Kurds are the only faction that has half-way credible plans in that direction. Certainly not Turkey's militias.

P.S. French pilots hopping into Saudi jets? :eh:
#15042584
Rugoz wrote:I think yes. The Kurds in Turkey have been effectively disenfranchised. If you ask me it's their right to resist.



That completely misses the point. You were the one emphasizing the importance of "democracy and the rule of law", yet the Kurds are the only faction that has half-way credible plans in that direction. Certainly not Turkey's militias.

P.S. French pilots hopping into Saudi jets? :eh:


No they don't, the Kurds do not have 'credible plans', they're exactly as he says; terroristic small minded militias.

That doesn't excuse the Turkish incursion, Turkey imho are an enemy to world peace...but a lot of the things Vanasalus said are factually true. And he's right that Turkey along with all the other sides have been played...
#15042585
noemon wrote:This is the account of the Greek agent tasked to accompany Ocalan, he disobeyed Greek state orders to throw him out of the Ambassador's House and for that he was dishonourably discharged and imprisoned. His account is most illuminating regarding the total lack of backbone that we were talking about earlier and how this is simply a deja vu in many ways.



The Dutch and the Belgians found a use for their aircraft..... :hmm:


And by the way, the Greek state is accused of arming the PKK in the early years.

The PKK killed civilians in indiscriminate attacks themselves...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Kurdish–Turkish_conflict_(1978–present)

I know Turkey are like the UU's in NI here and are responsible for total oppression, deaths and suffering -- but like the IRA, the PKK are not exempted for their crimes, just like Turkey isn't.

And there was never any real chance of a NI type good feiday agreement with an active, terrorist like Ocalan in charge. You know that as well as I do..
#15042592
^ You know what I'm getting at, that's not enough and they'll fight for 'all' of Kurdistan across all 4 countries.

They have indiscriminately killed civilians since 1978, the PKK and so have other Kurdish organisatiins, here's a nice list...

r/kurdistan
Kurdish groups/factions list
u/Axa20004y
This isn't my work, just something I found and thought it could be shared here.

TRANSNATIONAL:

KCK (Koma Civakên Kurdistan / Group of Communities in Kurdistan) Leader: Abdullah Öcalan aka Apo Established in 2007 to promote the ideology of Democratic Confederalism formulated by Öcalan following his arrest in 1999. Functions as a transnational umbrella organization for the various organizations linked to the PKK, in theory it functions as the supreme authority but in practice the majority of political power remains in the hands of the PKK leadership

KJK (Komalên Jinên Kurdistan / Kurdistan Communities of Women) The sister organization to the KCK, the KJK was established to function as an umbrella organization for the various regional women's rights groups affiliated with the PKK.

SYRIA / ROJAVA:

PYD (Partiya Yekîtiya Demokrat / Democratic Union Party) Leader: Salih Muslim Founded in 2003 following the PKK withdrawl from Syria in the late 1990's, the PYD is the Syrian arm of the KCK. The dominant political force in Syrian Kurdistan, it exerts a controlling influence over the YPG and other Kurdish self defence militias.

TEV-DEM (Tevgera Civaka Demokratîk/ Movement For a Democratic Soceity) Coalition of the PYD and various co-idelogues established to govern the Kurdish regions in Syria following the Regime withdrawal. Unilaterally established the three autonomous Kurdish cantons in Syria. Dominated by the PYD in practice.

KDPS (Partiya Demokrat a Kurdistanê li Sûriyê / Kurdistan Democratic Part of Syria) Leader: Abdel Hakim Bashar Syrian affiliate to Massoud Barzani's KDP. Initially did not join the SNC as they wanted a guarantee of Kurdish cultural rights as a prerequisite to their participation in the opposition (which was not forthcoming), however they still favour joining the SNC and oppose the system of autonomous cantons established by TEV-DEM. Ideologically hostile to the PYD.

ENKS (Encûmena Niştimanî ya Kurdî li Sûriyê / Kurdish National Council) - Also known as the KNC An umbrella organization uniting the KDPS and various smaller Kurdish parties midwifed by Massoud Barzani following their withdrawal from the NCC. Do not participate in TEV-DEM's system of autonomous cantons and favour integration in the SNC with the caveat of upfront guarantees for Kurdish rights

DBK (Desteya Bilind a Kurd / Kurdish Supreme Committee) - Also known as the KSC Established in 2012, the DBK is a joint governing body composed of the PYD and the KNC created with the intention of administrating the Syrian Kurdish regions following the Regime withdrawal. In practice the DBK is defunct following in-fighting between the two factions who each argued that the other was seeking to marginalise it's influence. Exists in name only but has no power or influence.

YPG (Yekîneyên Parastina Gel / People's Protection Units) Established in 2004 as the armed wing of the PYD, the YPG was officially brought under the control of the DBK following it's creation in 2012 and now functions as the armed forces of the Supreme committee. In practice the YPG is still controlled by the PYD and has squeezed out all other armed Kurdish militias in the region. YPG units have also been deployed in Northern Iraq to assist the KRG. Estimated Strength: 50,000 - 65,000

YPJ (Yekîneyên Parastina Jinê / Women's Protection Units) The all female sister organization to the YPG, some sources cite it as a brigade within the YPG while others label it a separate organization - the establishment of separate Women's groups is a common PKK/KCK practice and there is a similar lack of clarity concerning their official status. Estimated Strength: ~7,500

Asayişa Rojavê (Security) Simply called Asayia (or Asayish), this is the internal police force established by the DBK. Again, in practice it is dominated by the PYD but also works closely with Assyrian groups in the region. Not to be confused with the KRG Asayish. Estimated strength: ~4,000

Jabhat Al-Akrad (Liwa' Jabhat al-'Akrad l-Nusrah Shaʿbnā al-Sūrī / Kurdish Front Brigade to Protect the Syrian People) Formerly a brigade within the FSA composed of Kurdish and Arab defectors from the Syrian Army, Jabhat Al-Akrad was expelled from the FSA military council due to it's close co-operation with the PYD. Predominately active in Aleppo and Raqqa. Estimated strength: ~7,000 (claimed)

SUP (Syriac Union Party) An opposition Assyrian party mainly active in Al-Hasakah, it's armed wing the Syriac Military Council (MFS) formerly integrated into the YPG in 2014

Sutoro (Syriac Security Office) An Assyrian self defence force formed to protect Assyrian neighbourhoods in al-Hasakah, they function as a police force and maintain internal security. Co-operate closely with the Kurdish Asayişa and have a tacit alliance with the YPJ.

Sootoro (Syriac Protection Office) A Qamishli based splinter faction from the SUP, the Sootoro perform the same function as the SUP's Sutoro but have aligned with the regime as opposed to the YPG

IRAQ / BAŞUR

KRG (The Kurdistan Regional Government) President: Massoud Barzani (KDP) Prime minister: Nechirvan Barzani (KDP) The government of the autonomous Kurdish region of Iraq

KDP (Partîya Demokrata Kurdistanê / Kurdish Democratic Party) Leader: Massoud Barzani Founded by the legendary Kurdish resistance fighter Mustafa Barzani, the KDP grew to become one of the most influential Kurdish parties in the region. Led by the Barzani clan, one of the most powerful tribal groups in Northern Iraq that has weilded significant influence since the late 19th century. Perceived as being prone to corruption and driven by tribalist concerns, favours the expansion of the KRG into disputed territories considered historical Kurdish. It's forces and predominately deployed in it's traditional power base in the West of Iraqi Kurdistan centred around Duhok and Erbil Estimated strength of KDP peshmerga: ~25,000

PUK (Yekêtiy Niştîmaniy Kurdistan / Patriotic Union of Kurdistan) Leader: Jalal Talabani Founded by left wings figures in the KDP dissatisfied by the tribal and conservative approach of the KDP, the PUK is predominately based in the East of the Iraqi Kurdistan centred around Sulaymaniyah and draws support from a largely metropolitan base. Traditional rivals of the KDP, have a better relationship with the PKK and have developed closer ties with Iran to counter the KDP's developing relationship with Turkey. Deploys it's forces in the east of Iraqi Kurdistan and controls Kirkuk, a stronghold of PUK support. Estimated strength of PUK peshmerga: ~25,000

Gorran (Bizûtinewey‌ Gorran / Movement For Change) A party formed to protest the corruption evident in the KRG, PDK and PUK. Gorran has steadily developed to become the second largest party in the region and has drawn a substantial number of votes away from the PUK in Sulaimaniyah and other areas traditionally under it's sphere of influence.

Unifed Peshmerga Forces controlled by the Ministry of Peshmerga, these exclude party militias under the direct control of each party as indicated above. Estimated strength: ~50,000 (Professional), 100,000 - 120,000 (volunteer)

Zeravani A highly trained militarised police force under control of the KRG Ministry of the Interior (held by the KDP). In practice the Zeravani are loyal to the KDP and are one of the best equipped and trained units at their disposal. Initially a part of the Iraqi Federal police, much of their equipment and training was funded by the central government. Have been deployed in the East of Iraqi Kurdistan and have played a highly visible role in front-line operations against ISIS. Estimated strength: ~25,000

Asayish (Security) The internal KRG security agency, the Asayish are responsible for combating internal terrorism and sabotage and have conducted raids against suspected ISIS militants within KRG controlled territory.

Dizha Tiror (Anti-Terror) - Sometimes simply called DT An anti-terrorim special forces unit under the control of the Asayish that is in practice loyal to the PUK. Commanded by Lahur Talabani, son of Jalal Talabani. DT is primarily composed of veterans of the PUK anti-terrorism forces trained by the CIA/US Special Forces for Operation Viking Hammer.

YBŞ (Yekineyên Berxwedana Şengalê / Sinjar Resistance Units) A Yazidi militia established in Sinjar following the YPG intervention in the region to secure an escape route for trapped civilians. Primarily trained and armed by the YPG, they have recently stoked controversy in the region by backing an autonomous Yazidi canton centred around Sinjar. Estimated strength: >1,000

HPS (Hêza Parastina Şingal / Sinjar Defence Forces) A Yazidi self defence force led by Qasim Shesho, a renowned Yazidi elder. Independent of the KRG Peshmerga but co-operates closely with them in operations and has received arms and training. Estimated strength: >2,000

NPF (Nineveh Plain Forces) A new Assyrian militia under the KRG Peshmerga command structure set-up to counter the recently created NPU. Assyrians in Nineveh are divided over the future of the region with some favouring integrating the area into the KRG to protect minority rights while others are suspicious of joining the KRG and favour remaining outside the region with some pressing the central government for complete regional autonomy Estimated strength: ??

Dwekh Nawsha Another Assyrian self defence milita based in the Nineveh Plain formed by the Assyrian Patriotic Party. Estimated strength: ~250

NPU (Nineveh Plain Units) A new Assyrian militia created by the largest Assyrian party, the Assyrian Democratic Movement (or Zowaa), and partially funded by the Assyrian diaspora. Unaffiliated with the KRG and more openly hostile to the idea of integrating Nineveh into the KRG. Estimated strength: ??

PÇDK (Partî Çareserî Dîmukratî Kurdistan / Kurdistan Democratic Solution Party) The Iraqi arm of the KCK. Tiny and powerless. Has been routinely suppressed by the KDP. Estimated strength: I don't know - maybe like one guy or something?

TURKEY / BAKUR

PKK (Partiya Karkerên Kurdistani / Kurdistan Workers Party) Leader: Murat Karayılan Commies turned Democratic Confederalists. Officially they have a ceasefire with the Turkish government but running tit-for-tat attacks persist and the PKK have begun to mobilize more openly in Turkish Kurdistan as tensions have begun to escalate. Leadership is based in the Qandil Mountains in Iraq.

HPG (Hêza Parastina Gel / Peoples Defence Forces) The armed wing of the PKK. Spread between it's bases in the Qandil Mountains, Turkey, Syrian Kurdistan and has units deployed in Sinjar, Kirkuk and elsewhere in Eastern Iraq including Mexmur and Gwer which are near a large refugee camp housing PKK fighters and supporters relocated from Turkey Estimated Strength: 5,000 - 15,000 (recruitment has swelled in recent months and reliable figures are unavailable)

YJA-STAR (Yekîneyên Jinên Azad ên Star/ Free Womens Units) The all female branch of the HPG. Estimated Strength: I dunno

YDG-H (Yurtsever Devrimci Gençlik Hareketi / The Patriotic Revolutionary Youth Movement) The youth wing of the PKK. Have become increasingly prominent in street protests in recent months and have taken a lead in anti-government riots, some have theorised that the PKK may be losing control of an increasingly radical youth movement that has grown tired with the slow rate of the peace process. Something to keep an eye on

TAK (Teyrênbazê Azadiya Kurdistan / Kurdistan Freedom Hawks) Suspected Leader: Bahoz Erdal A hardline splinter faction of the PKK responsible for a high-profile bombing campaign targeting tourist destinations in 2006. They claim to be a completely independent organization but some commentators believe it to be a front used by the PKK for more questionable acts, a true splinter faction made of former members or an alias used by active members of the PKK displeased with the peace process. I think the latter is the most likely and a resurgence of TAK is possible if the hardline faction attempts to reassert themselves Estimated strength: Like 12 guys probably.

BDP (Barış ve Demokrasi Partisi / Peace and Democracy Party) The largest Kurdish party in Turkey, the BDP officially calls for an end to the PKK's armed campaign and has played go-between for Ocalan and the PKK leadership in Iraq. Although officially not affiliated with the PKK and much more moderate than them policy wise, the BDP does draw support from PKK supporters and from former-supporters alienated by the PKK's totalitarian style of leadership. Has transformed into a purely local government party after the formation of the HDP.

HDP (Halkların Demokratik Partisi / Peoples' Democratic Party) Leader: Selahattin Demirtaş A left-wing national political party formed from various Socialist groups and moderate Kurdish parties including the BDP. Champions of minority rights and democratic socialism - increasingly holding the balance of power in Turkish politics.

Hüda Par (Hür Dava Partisi / Free Cause Party) The successor party to the Islamist group Kurdish Hizbollah, Hüda Par argue for Kurdish cultural rights but have a long-running violent rivalry with the PKK (who they see as Godless communists). In the spotlight recently after clashes between the YDG-H and Hüda Par in South East Turkey.

IRAN / Rojhilat

PJAK (Partiya Jiyana Azad a Kurdistanê / Party of Free Life of Kurdistan). Iranian KCK affiliate. Largely based in Iraq's Qandil mountains though it maintains an active presence in Iran.

YRK (Yekineyên Rojhilata Kurdistan / East Kurdistan Units) Recently re-branded armed wing of PJAK. Unknown number of members in Iran, a couple of units deployed through Iraq and Syria assisting the PKK and YPG (specifically Kirkuk). PJAK/YRK flags are rare and it can be hard to identify their presence, Iran has applied pressure on the KRG to prevent the display of PJAK/YRK symbols to prevent them gaining legitimacy from resisting ISIS. Estimated strength: ~2,000

HPJ (Hêza Parastina Jinê / Women's Defence Force) Come on, guess

KODAR (Komelgay Dîmokratîk û Azadî Rojhelatî Kurdistan / Organisation of Free and Democratic Society for East Kurdistan) An newly established political sub-unit of PJAK with the purpose of promoting Democratic Confederalism and working towards a negotiated settlement with Iran. Don't know much about these folks yet.

PDKI/KDPI (Partî Dêmokiratî Kurdistanî Êran / Democratic Party of Iranian Kurdistan) The largest and oldest Iranian Kurdish party founded in 1946 by Qazi Muhammad. Briefly controlled the short-lived Republic of Mahabad, one of the more successful attempts at Kurdish autonomy. The PDKI leadership (and a majority of it's membership) is in exile in Northern Iraq but a small fighting force does seem to be maintained across the border. Estimated Strength: <5,000

KOMALA (Komalay Shoreshgeri Zahmatkeshani Kurdistani Iran / Organization of Revolutionary Toilers of Iranian Kurdistan) The Kurdish branch of the Communist Party of Iran, the second most popular Iranian Kurd party. Again, the parties leadership are in exile in Northern Iraq. Formerly staunch Marxist-Leninist they have drifted to the centre in recent years but still remain of the left, challenging the PDKI's more conservative stance. Estimated Strength: ?

PAK (Parti Azadi Kurdistan / Kurdistan Freedom Party) A party so small that people often forget they exist. Not to be confused with two Syrian parties with the exact same name. An Iranian group party that has been in exile since the end of the Iran / Iraq war, based in Erbil in Northern Iraq. Frequently get mistaken for PJAK but are totally different dudes. Have a nice logo. Estimated Strength: >500
#15042594
Presvias wrote:^ You know what I'm getting at, that's not enough and they'll fight for 'all' of Kurdistan across all 4 countries.


Should I now compile a list of everbody's proxies in the region? I mean how dare they doing the same as everbody else. :lol:

The Kurds already have autonomy in Northern Iraq, I don't see why that shouldn't work for Northern Syria. They know their survival depends on Western protection, so they cannot overstep certain boundaries. Or better they knew.
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