Trump hands over Syria to Turkey then threatens to "totally destroy & obliterate" her economy if... - Page 15 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15042888
Oh yes, just love Turkish terrorism me, hoping they establish the great caliphate across all of asia minor... :roll: :moron:

What will it take to get you to acknowledge the truth? You've bought years of western propaganda, you shouldn't throw your lot in with any side here, they're all really, really bad.

I'll try again then..

https://www.thenation.com/article/have- ... ar-crimes/

Are you going to selectively read it? Or will you engage with the truth?
#15042894
As I already told you:

You said that "its vile and sickening behaviour on the parts of the Kurds". What is? :?: Your 2016 article claims that some war-refugees have fled towards ISIL territory instead of fleeing into Kurdish held territory. Full stop. How is that vile and sickening Kurdish terrorism is beyond me but if you want to elaborate to sustain what can only be described as muddying the waters sure be my guest.

Turkey has invaded Syria without anybody inviting it to invade that country amidst international condemnation openly declaring that she has done so to alter the demographics of Northern Syria and eliminate the Kurdish issue. That is terrorism. She is also currently invading Cypriot territorial waters and as I've said before I'm not referring to her illegal occupation of the Northern part of Cyprus, they are currently occupying waters south of the southern part and are openly threatening Europe.

The Kurds on the other hand are fighting for their own lives and their right to live in their own homes.

That is the truth. If you are here to post Turkish propaganda you should cite and quote the text that you believe argues your point instead of trying to muddy the waters with erroneous interpretations that come from nothing at all.
#15042897
( @noemon 's post)

^ Not even worth reading.

It's not Turkish propaganda, it's the truth which you readily dismissed without even reading it.. that means your post isn't worth the bother. :roll:

You are clearly dead-set in your belief that Kurdish terrorists who kill civilians and that's proven, in Turkey, Iran, Syria and Iraq, are 'good liberal feminists' :lol: then you are completely wrong. 100% wrong, in every conceivable way.

You are almost making the Turks look like the good guys. Are you sure you want to keep doing that?

Feel free to throw every accusation you can think of at me.. :roll:
#15042907
Atlantis wrote:Up to the Brexit vote, the UK has vetoed EU military cooperation for nearly half a century. They tried to keep on using their veto even after the referendum, but soon realized that this would create too much bad blood for the Brexit talks. So they gave up their veto. It only took a few months for the first EU military cooperation projects to materialize, but Rome was not built in one day either. Europe's combined defense spending far exceeds those of Russia and, with EU cooperation, redundancies can be eliminated to arrive at a defense framework that suits the EU's needs.



What makes you think the British are the problem?


https://www.thelocal.de/20180502/german-luftwaffe-only-has-four-operation-ready-eurofighter-jets-report


...

For years the Bundeswehr (German armed forces) has been dogged by allegations that its forces are not ready for real life missions.

Earlier this year a damning parliamentary report concluded that the state of the armed forces had deteriorated further in recent years.

"The army's readiness to deploy has not improved in recent years, but instead has got even worse," Parliamentary Armed Forces Commissioner Hans-Peter Bartels said as he presented his annual findings at a press conference in February.

By the end of 2017, all Germany's submarines were in drydock for repairs, while in recent months there have been periods where none of the air force's 14 A400M transport planes were airworthy.

The report also found wider problems in Luftwaffe. Air force pilots are unable to train as their aircraft are grounded for maintenance for much of the year, the report noted.

Spending on defence has been cut repeatedly since 1990 and the end of the Cold War, leaving the army with often outdated equipment and the defence industry unable to suddenly increase production to fill the gaps.



Looks to me that the problem is a very low level of readiness due to the military not being regarded as important.


Having said that, the EU is not an empire like the US and doesn't need power-projection capabilities like the US. The mess in the ME is the responsibility of the US and not the EU. It would be very foolish for the EU to follow the ill-fated interventionist policies of neocon America. The EU needs to defend its borders and, if required, deploy UN-mandated peace-keeping missions in it's periphery. The EU does not have to police the world.



I am not sure the French would agree with that. But defending the EU frontier would be a good start.
#15042913
"The army's readiness to deploy has not improved in recent years, but instead has got even worse," Parliamentary Armed Forces Commissioner Hans-Peter Bartels said as he presented his annual findings at a press conference in February.

The problem with this criticism is that it was made by a man who obviously played too much with war toys. I'm sure the last two German defense ministers, Ursula von der Leyen (European Commission president from November) and Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer (future German chancellor), have been doing an amazing job since 17 December 2013 to reverse the deterioration of the German Air Force.
#15042914
Presvias wrote:( @noemon 's post)

^ Not even worth reading.


First of all you have a bad habit of liking posts which you then claim "are not even worth reading".

It's not Turkish propaganda, it's the truth which you readily dismissed without even reading it.. that means your post isn't worth the bother. :roll:


Of course it is propaganda and that is why you refuse to quote any part of the article because the article is just empty, it contains no facts, it cites no sources and it is merely a soup of empty platitudes, even as propaganda it is cheap and worthless. There is nothing specific in there and if there was you would have quoted it already.

You are clearly dead-set in your belief that Kurdish terrorists who kill civilians and that's proven, in Turkey, Iran, Syria and Iraq, are 'good liberal feminists' :lol: then you are completely wrong. 100% wrong, in every conceivable way.


I'm not dead-set at all, I am pretty sure that Kurds being under attack, being refused their own country, their right to speak their language and teach it to their children for decades, them having to fight several wars for their own basic human rights have most likely committed their own share of human right abuses. Just like every actor has before them and just like any actor in such situations will do after them. Besides if I were to list the atrocities committed by Turkey and the ISIS support by Turkey you would not really know where to hide, if we were to juxtapose Turkish terrorism and Kurdish "terrorism" again you would not know where to hide. But all this is minutia that can only serve one purpose to muddy the waters of the really important facts which are very simple and obvious:

noemon wrote:Turkey has invaded Syria without anybody inviting it to invade that country amidst international condemnation openly declaring that she has done so to alter the demographics of Northern Syria and eliminate the Kurdish issue. That is terrorism. She is also currently invading Cypriot territorial waters and as I've said before I'm not referring to her illegal occupation of the Northern part of Cyprus, they are currently occupying waters south of the southern part and are openly threatening Europe.

The Kurds on the other hand are fighting for their own lives and their right to live in their own homes.
#15042915
I did like your post, because it made me laugh.. "supports turk terrorism".. :lol:

Go ahead and juxr'tapose Turkish terrorism since the Ottoman Empire, I don't care. I'm not a Turkey supporter so go ahead, but list the Kurdish atrocities too.

Go on, I want you to do it.

When you read the 2nd article get back to me... I'm tired of quoting things to people for them not to read shit. What is the point?
#15042916
You are making the claim that the Kurdish people in Syria fighting against an illegal Turkish invasion are the real terrorists, you have quoted 1 article that got trashed because it did not say what you thought it did and then you linked a second article which says absolutely nothing at all. Your refusal to quote from it, is evidence of its worthlessness. I will be juxtaposing Turkish crimes as soon as you actually post a Kurdish crime that makes the Kurds the real terrorists instead of the Turks in this particular case. So we are all ears and eyes if you please.
#15042917
Just for anyone else who can be bothered to read and not recite Yankee rubbish propaganda...


The YPG’s assaults on Arabs began in late 2013, with three massacres, according to the Syrian Network for Human Rights: Al-Aghybish town in November 2013, in which six were killed; Tal Brak in late February 2014, with a death toll of 43 civilians; and Al Hajiya and Tal Khalil in mid-September 2014, in which 42 were killed.

Expulsions and destruction of villages also started in Hasakah late in 2013, and gained momentum after the US Air Force began to carry out air strikes to save Kobani from the ISIS assault in October 2014. It accelerated the following year, as the YPG, backed up by US air power, captured the border town of Tal Abyad, which ISIS deserted without a fight.

The YPG’s assaults on Arabs began in late 2013, with three massacres, according to the Syrian Network for Human Rights.

The expulsions and destruction of villages that began in early 2014 followed a surprising pattern of seeming collaboration between the YPG, ISIS, and the Assad regime with the purpose of expelling moderate rebel forces from key border crossings and major cities across the region. Again and again, in towns where the YPG lacked the manpower or weapons to dislodge the rebels, ISIS forces arrived unexpectedly with their corps of suicide bombers, seized the territory, and later handed it over to the YPG without a fight. Afterward the YPG expelled the Arab residents.

Take the town of Tel Hamis, south of Rojava’s biggest city, Qamishli. Rebels from Brigade 313, with support from the Islamist Ahrar al-Sham, captured it from government forces in February 2013, and the YPG was unable to wrest it from them. At the end of 2013, in the midst of fighting, a column of more than 100 vehicles carrying armed Islamic State fighters arrived unexpectedly from eastern Syria and defeated two rebel brigades, Brigade 114 and the Falcon brigade, according to Naser and other sources. ISIS later withdrew to an area 20 miles south of Tel Hamis and turned the area over to the YPG without a fight in February 2015, he said.


https://www.thenation.com/article/have- ... ar-crimes/

Noemon won't read it. Anyone who criticises his opinion is a Turk supporter and wants Turkey to annex all of Cyprus and rule over Greece... etc etc. Whatever.
#15042918
Lol so Pence flew all the way to Turkey so we could... surrender and give the Turks everything they want in exchange for nothing?


The Turkish president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, has agreed with Mike Pence to suspend Ankara's operation in northern Syria. Ankara would pause its offensive for 120 hours in order to allow the Kurdish Protection Units (YPG) to pull 30km back from the Turkey-Syria border.

#15042920
Presvias wrote:Just for anyone else who can be bothered to read and not recite Yankee rubbish propaganda...
https://www.thenation.com/article/have- ... ar-crimes/

Noemon won't read it. Anyone who criticises his opinion is a Turk supporter and wants Turkey to annex all of Cyprus and rule over Greece... etc etc. Whatever.


Attacks on ISIS-held-towns is not attacks on Arab civilians and civilian casualties resulting from the offensive against ISIS are not by default Kurdish atrocities. That is just empty propaganda with no evidence and not even basic logic behind it.
#15042922
Presvias wrote:Just for anyone else who can be bothered to read and not recite Yankee rubbish propaganda...



https://www.thenation.com/article/have- ... ar-crimes/

Noemon won't read it. Anyone who criticises his opinion is a Turk supporter and wants Turkey to annex all of Cyprus and rule over Greece... etc etc. Whatever.


From same article, maybe this will help..



Akcakale, Turkey—The Kurdish militia that supplies the ground troops in the US air war against the Islamic State has been a systematic violator of human rights in the area it controls in northern Syria, causing the displacement of tens of thousands of Arabs and even more massive flight by Kurds from the region.


This is the first of a two-part investigation, which was supported by the Fund for Investigative Journalism.

A six-month investigation shows that the militia, reportedly under the strong influence of Iran and the Assad regime, has evicted Arabs from their homes at gunpoint starting in 2013 and subsequently has blown up, torched, or bulldozed their homes and villages. The Nation interviewed more than 80 Arabs and Syrian Kurdish refugees in the region as well as militia officials, former militia members, former Syrian government officials, political activists, and officials in Iraqi Kurdistan.

The pace of the expulsions picked up dramatically after the United States began joint operations against the Islamic State in Syria in mid-2015, as the Kurdish militia threatened Arabs with air strikes if they didn’t leave their villages. While they slowed in 2016, expulsions continue even as the militia turns on its political rivals and jails, tortures, or expels them.

At least 200,000 Syrian Kurds have fled to Turkey rather than submit to forced conscription and political repression.

At least 300,000 Syrian Kurds have also fled the region to neighboring Iraqi Kurdistan, according to officials there, and no fewer than 200,000 have fled to Turkey rather than submit to forced conscription and political suppression by a group that insists on ruling as a one-party state, according to Kurdish human-rights monitors in Turkey. Officials in Iraqi Kurdistan say that if the Syrian Kurdish militia opened the borders, at least half the Kurdish population under its control would flee.

....





More from the UN, Amnesty etc...

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... ar-crimes/

https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/iw/ori ... rimes.html

"UN report details possible ‘war crimes’ by many sides in Syrian war"

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thedefense ... rimes/amp/

What do they know. They are supporters of the neo-Ottoman sultan just like me... allahu snackbar... etc. I tried my best to convince a clearly intelligent bloke of this, but he just wants to fling mud, what can you do. All the best.. and God Bless + many years ..
#15042924
Presvias wrote:From same article, maybe this will help..
More from the UN, Amnesty etc... https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... ar-crimes/
What do they know. They are supporters of the neo-Ottoman sultan just like me... allahu snackbar... etc. I tried my best to convince a clearly intelligent bloke of this, but he just wants to fling mud, what can you do. All the best.. and God Bless + many years ..


There is nothing to convince, this has been standard practice in the Syrian war, and there are far worse examples out there having been committed against them. It does not excuse them but you are stuck on it for a reason. "All hands have been dirty" argument does not excuse the Turkish invasion. Just because Erdogan said it earlier today it does not make it true.
#15042962
Drlee wrote:Well obviously not. Trump threatened to destroy Turkey's economy. If that is not policing I don't know what is. All Trump has proved is that he does not know how to do this stuff and is not smart enough to consult the experts.

The point I was trying to make is that President Trump does not want the USA to have the responsibility to police the world with our military. The Executive Branch, which the President is head, has the responsibility for foreign policy through the State Department. The Congress is trying to dictate foreign policy to President Trump by their interference in this Turkish - Syrian incident. The Congress should do what they are responsible for and stay out of Executive branch affairs.
#15042974
noemon wrote:There is nothing to convince, this has been standard practice in the Syrian war, and there are far worse examples out there having been committed against them. It does not excuse them but you are stuck on it for a reason. "All hands have been dirty" argument does not excuse the Turkish invasion. Just because Erdogan said it earlier today it does not make it true.


(I liked your words sincerely this time..)

OK so you acknowledge the truth. (shrugs)

That's all I asked for. I'm glad to hear it.

Why continue to support any side?

Do you know, I know Cypriot Greeks who fought in the war, who say to me they feel bad because they shot an aircraft down; other ones tell me they recognize atrocities committed by Greek fascist paramilitaries. There are always several sides to the stories. I don't know if you are religious, but you know Saint Paisios when conscripted in the 'great war' shot away from other soldiers, of course he was forced to charge and look like he was shooting; that's true belief in good over evil..

Several wrongs never make a right and ends never justify means, as YOU said; all sides have blood on their hands, they are all wrong and there's no reason to 'support' any of them. Everyone with a heart & a brain wants peace and a autonomy for the Kurds, but you can see I'm just saying the truth to you about what the YPG et al are really like... what can we do?
#15042986
Presvias wrote:An EU army is now 110% an absolute necessity.

You should form a new alliance to supplant NATO and get other rational countries like Canada and NZ to join it.


I agree. Only Europeans can defend their own interests. Americans will always defend their own interests and not ours, which is normal.

However, I have little hope that any of the 5-eyes countries will join us. We need to make peace with Russia. Europe and Russia complement each other. Both Putin and Macron have understood this.
#15042989
Presvias wrote:(I liked your words sincerely this time..)

OK so you acknowledge the truth. (shrugs)

That's all I asked for. I'm glad to hear it.

Why continue to support any side?

Do you know, I know Cypriot Greeks who fought in the war, who say to me they feel bad because they shot an aircraft down; other ones tell me they recognize atrocities committed by Greek fascist paramilitaries. There are always several sides to the stories. I don't know if you are religious, but you know Saint Paisios when conscripted in the 'great war' shot away from other soldiers, of course he was forced to charge and look like he was shooting; that's true belief in good over evil..

Several wrongs never make a right and ends never justify means, as YOU said; all sides have blood on their hands, they are all wrong and there's no reason to 'support' any of them. Everyone with a heart & a brain wants peace and a autonomy for the Kurds, but you can see I'm just saying the truth to you about what the YPG et al are really like... what can we do?


As I already said:

All this is minutia that can only serve one purpose to muddy the waters of the really important facts which are very simple and obvious:

noemon wrote:Turkey has invaded Syria without anybody inviting it to invade that country amidst international condemnation openly declaring that she has done so to alter the demographics of Northern Syria and eliminate the Kurdish issue. That is terrorism. She is also currently invading Cypriot territorial waters and as I've said before I'm not referring to her illegal occupation of the Northern part of Cyprus, they are currently occupying waters south of the southern part and are openly threatening Europe.

The Kurds on the other hand are fighting for their own lives and their right to live in their own homes.


Your nihilist logic does not stand up tor reason. The fact that everyone kills their opponents in a war does not make everyone the same because Kurds are at war for their own survival while Turks are at war for their expansion.
#15042991
Sorry, but no.

You are brainwashed by years of Greek-fried "the turks are always the enemy" propaganda.

They committed mass human rights abuses and that is unaccrptable in any war. They're as bad as the Turkish army is and they've mass persecuted their own fellow Kurdish people terribly.

(The waters aren't muddy they're filled with rotting corpses of civilians killed by all sides..including the Kurdish 'freedom fighters')..

I could care less what the prevailing forum groupthink says is right, they're wrong 9.9 times out of 10 about everything anyway, usually it's a sign that you're right when they're trying their best to be condemnatory. Don't fall for it, you know better..
#15042993
ThirdTerm wrote:The Turkish president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, has agreed with Mike Pence to suspend Ankara's operation in northern Syria. Ankara would pause its offensive for 120 hours in order to allow the Kurdish Protection Units (YPG) to pull 30km back from the Turkey-Syria border.


A Turkish government official was quoted as saying that this was the easiest deal ever. The Trumpets did everything Erdogan wanted.

Now it's not a matter of interpreting one of Trump's impulsive telephone conversion, now its a matter of officially sealed US policy that they have sold the Kurds and allowed Turkey to annex parts of Syria.

Where are the Kurds supposed to go? Most Kurdish towns and villages are in the 30 mile stretch next to the border that Turkey is now going to occupy in violation of international law. South of that there is mostly desert or places like Raqqa that aren't even traditional Kurdish cities. About 400,000 Kurds have been driven out of Afrin by the Turks. If the invasion goes ahead, 1 to 2 million Kurds will be driven out. Is Trump going to give them asylum? Or does he once again expect Europe to pay the price for US aggression?

The Americans are not our friends. So much is sure. Time for them to go home.
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