Capital Punishment - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Crime and prevention thereof. Loopholes, grey areas and the letter of the law.
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By marlon
#15043824
Murder is explicitly the act of killing defined in statute law. Killing an enemy soldier is "deliberate - premeditated" but incurs an element of self defence, this is not murder.
Murder also includes no intention to take a life.. mens rea. The main factor is - by your actions you take the life of a person who is not a threat by deliberate intent or recklessness.
When I see that rotten, vile Anders Brevik literally smiling with glee and pride of his killing 75 young persons I do seriously wish for the death penalty
User avatar
By SSDR
#15044335
Capital punishment is a necessity for a civilization to survive. Without capital punishment, a civilization would collapse with social chaos and excessive crime.

Social chaos and excessive crime kills people directly (gang violence, homicides, etc.) and indirectly (psychological stresses making victims do drugs to cope with the traumas of crime, people committing suicide due to trauma of being around street crimes, etc.).

It is more efficient to have an organized form of eliminating those who have psychological intentions to beat up random people, rape random people, and burn peoples' homes.

Criminals who beat up random people, and start gang violence/social dispute do not think that this is socially chaotic nor a threat to the survival of humanity. This is because this goes against their politics. If one believes that it is "right" to burn homes for fun and attack random people, they shall have a capital punishment so they do not drag their civilization down.
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By Godstud
#15044338
Imprisonment serves just fine, and capital punishment is absolutely not necessary. All the evidence available shows that capital punishment is neither a deterrent, nor is it good for society.
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By annatar1914
#15044347
Godstud wrote:Imprisonment serves just fine, and capital punishment is absolutely not necessary. All the evidence available shows that capital punishment is neither a deterrent, nor is it good for society.


It deters that particular criminal from future criminal acts, permanently. And, capital punishment when it is publicly and frequently applied, instills a healthy fear in would-be criminals to not commit crimes. Since not all justice is involved in the rehabilitation of the criminal but the lives of the victims, payment is rendered by the executed criminal what is owed to the sufferers of criminal acts. Because life is very precious, those who murder others and those who might imitate them in their anti-human acts must pay the penalty for the destruction of other lives.
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By Godstud
#15044348
annatar1914 wrote:And, capital punishment when it is publicly and frequently applied, instills a healthy fear in would-be criminals to not commit crimes.
There is absolutely no evidence to support this. Evidence does, however, suggest this is not true. You might feel that way, however.

Countries that have gotten rid of the death penalty have not seen a rise in murder rates.

The society that murders it's criminals for murder is hypocritical.

Given that justice is not infallible, there is also this:
The study, published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences determined that at least 4% of people on death row were and are likely innocent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_execution

You can pay someone back for wrongful imprisonment, but not wrongful execution.
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By annatar1914
#15044357
There is absolutely no evidence to support this. Evidence does, however, suggest this is not true. You might feel that way, however.


You are projecting feelings into this where none exist on my part. Where is your evidence? Besides, the deterrent is on the particular criminal. Execution deters them 100% from committing future crimes. No criminal, no crime from that criminal.

Countries that have gotten rid of the death penalty have not seen a rise in murder rates.


Source? And again, Justice is concerned with the human person.

The society that murders it's criminals for murder is hypocritical.


''Kills'', not ''murders''. This is a distinction as old as man himself, otherwise all soldiers are murderers too...

Given that justice is not infallible, there is also this:
The study, published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences determined that at least 4% of people on death row were and are likely innocent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_execution

You can pay someone back for wrongful imprisonment, but not wrongful execution.


Nothing is perfect in this life. Besides, the truly guilty of murder would be paying back for wrongful termination of innocents themselves.
User avatar
By Godstud
#15044360
Many people feel that Capital Punishment is a deterrent. Such is not the case, and it is based on feelings, not facts..

Abolition of Capital Punishment in Canada
The removal of capital punishment from the Canadian Criminal Code in 1976 has not led to an increase in the murder rate in Canada.In fact, Statistics Canada reports that the murder rate has generally been declining since the mid-1970s. In 2009, the national murder rate in Canada was 1.81 homicides per 100,000 population, compared to the mid-1970s when it was around 3.0.
https://www.thoughtco.com/abolition-of- ... ada-510121

Deterrence
Studies show no link between the presence or absence of the death penalty and murder rates.
https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/deterrence

In fact:
Study: International Data Shows Declining Murder Rates After Abolition of Death Penalty
Nations that abolish the death penalty then tend to see their murder rates decline, according to a December 2018 report by the Abdorrahman Boroumand Center, a Washington, DC-based organization that promotes human rights and democracy in Iran. The report examined murder rates in 11 countries that have abolished capital punishment, finding that ten of those countries experienced a decline in murder rates in the decade following abolition.
https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/news/study ... th-penalty

Fact check: No proof the death penalty prevents crime
Fact Check asked Justice Lasry whether he had any particular research in mind when he said the death penalty wasn't a deterrent. A spokeswoman for the Victorian Supreme Court said that the judge's comments were based on "a general body of research that indicates the death penalty has no real deterrent value".
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-26/ ... 3f/6116030

annatar1914 wrote:Besides, the truly guilty of murder would be paying back for wrongful termination of innocents themselves.
So if society kills the wrong person(an innocent), who pays?
User avatar
By annatar1914
#15044366
Many people feel that Capital Punishment is a deterrent.


It deters the individual who commits it 100% of the time, when caught and convicted and sentence is carried out swiftly. I know Liberals aren't much into personal responsibility for one's actions much and all, but fact is, you take a life, you should owe a life-your own.


Such is not the case, and it is based on feelings, not facts..


See above. Your bloodless statistics cover up a mountain of suffering and blood.


So if society kills the wrong person(an innocent), who pays?


Someone. We're all connected, and the relatively innocent pay for the relatively guilty, and when there aren't enough executions, wars cut down society until it's of a more simpler and manageable level of existence. There is a natural homeostasis at work, which we ignore at our peril.
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By annatar1914
#15044374
Rugoz wrote:Capital punishment in today's societies is nothing but revenge. Pure barbarism.


Evading personal responsibility is where the real ''barbarism'' exists. Societies are built not so much as mutual trust, but mutual fear, and when fear is removed, society collapses towards anarchy sooner or later depending on the degree of State fecklessness and impotence.
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By Drlee
#15044394
Capital punishment is for small minds.

The evidence that it does not deter crime is clear as a bell.

The assertion that it deters the executed criminal from committing crimes is just silly. That argument presents and ever widening set of crimes that get the death penalty.

Ask any prison guard. The murderers are frequently the least dangerous prisoners and the least likely to re-offend.

And the death penalty as it is applied in the US is an absurdity.

Time to do away with the death penalty because it is the smart thing to do.
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By annatar1914
#15044404
@Drlee , you said that;

Capital punishment is for small minds.


''Small minds'' like, well, God;

''And surely I will require the life of any man or beast by whose hand your lifeblood is shed. I will demand an accounting from anyone who takes the life of his fellow man: Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man his blood will be shed; for in His own image God has made mankind.''



The evidence that it does not deter crime is clear as a bell.


Personal Responsibility and a standard of Justice is more important than even deterring crime as represented by raw numbers and statistics.

The assertion that it deters the executed criminal from committing crimes is just silly. That argument presents and ever widening set of crimes that get the death penalty.


Calling something ''Silly'' is not a rebuttal.

Proof that crimes historically were punished increasingly with the death penalty?

Ask any prison guard. The murderers are frequently the least dangerous prisoners and the least likely to re-offend.


I know several prison guards, who say different, that most of the murderer prisoners are ''lifers'' and have nothing really to lose by being violent in Prison if they feel they have to.

And the death penalty as it is applied in the US is an absurdity.


I agree. Far too many appeals and special pleading for the lives of people sentenced to death. It shouldn't take 15-20 years to put down one of these scum. It's a joke.

Time to do away with the death penalty because it is the smart thing to do.


Sure, because we all have that guilty conscience that knows almost all of us have wanted to murder someone at one time or another, and gee it would get under one's skin to have to feel that terror that a murderer inflicts on their victims, wouldn't it? Getting rid of the death penalty is only ''smart'' to us because our intellects are quite myopic and diseased when it comes to this issue.
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By Drlee
#15044407
:roll:
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By marlon
#15044411
Murder is currently classified/categorised as a level of risk in regard to the time in custody (in UK). For example; The IRA killing innocent people in London as compared to the first offender who kills his partner over a dispute.
User avatar
By Ter
#15044414
I have been pretty much against the death penalty all my life.
Reading about people torturing and murdering babies, children and animals are making me change my mind.
I think I am prepared to actually carry out those death sentences myself.
#15044483
Ter wrote:I have been pretty much against the death penalty all my life.
Reading about people torturing and murdering babies, children and animals are making me change my mind.
I think I am prepared to actually carry out those death sentences myself.


The Mindhunter books will do that too.

I came away with the idea that capital punishment is not inherently bad. In cases of unrepentant serial rapist/killers, it may even be best.

But the problem arises in the practice. If we open the door to the death penalty for these people, we end up with situations where some black guy gets the death penalty for being in the getaway car while someone else kills the liquor store owner by accident.

If I could trust juries and judges to actually use the death penalty in an evenhanded manner, it may be all right. But that is not the world we live in.

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