[JohnRawls]

@blackjack21 @jimjam @Beren @SpecialOlympian

Where is @Drlee? Can't find him... Well whatever. Before you guys continue ranting about how Trump is good or bad can we discuss if Trump actually doing anything about the things that matter. Its a meme ofcourse so the data is not 100 correct but it points you in the right direction. Real number for baby boomers can be disputed to a higher end but it would still be at least 3 times lower compared to millenials. For example this:

[Tainari88]

The face of America toward the rest of the world. Sad...…. embarrassing:

“Syria may have some help with Russia, and that’s fine,” Trump insisted. “It’s a lot of sand. They’ve got a lot of sand over there. So there’s a lot of sand that they can play with.”

A friend who has lived abroad for the past 26 years has described to me the impression toward Americans by foreigners as "assholes" that he has seen as he has traveled.

People are usually nice here towards Americans. But Mexicans are great hosts in general to many nationalities.

Individuals are not their governments. Governments and heads of state do not necessarily represent fine people from all nationalities and ethnicities Jimjam.

Here? They know Puerto Rico suffered two hurricanes and they know that the government is a basket case. But they see it as that is the reality for many nations....and no reason to discriminate against individuals from that nationality.

Mature adults think that way. And intelligent people in general. We are all one people Jimjam. Human beings. We forget that with these political battles at times.

[Finfinder]

I think it's a question of degree, and that's why it has never been regulated. Until the Clintons, nobody had ever tried to turn a post presidency into an influence peddling business with an elaborate legal defense for the purpose of making tens of millions if not hundreds of millions of dollars. In fact, that was why they ended up creating a nice stipend for ex presidents, as I think some ended up in financial trouble--e.g., Harry Truman being the most recent. As for the Bidens, it's not clear how you would regulate something like that. It's not the clear case of nepotism that appointing your family member to a government post would indicate. Yet, there is a clear case of Biden family members profiting from a public office held by Joe Biden. This is why I think politicians of all stripes are uncomfortable with what Trump is doing in investigating Biden: more specifically, I think there are a lot of politicians in Washington whose children profit from a public office they hold. So you get highly partisan charges from people like jimjam who are certain in spite of a lack of evidence that Trump is lining his own pockets or that of his family without a shred of evidence to support it--innuendo or the appearance of a conflict of interest is sufficient proof to establish guilt with the likes of jimjam; yet, when people start taking that type of charge seriously in the abstract and applying it generally to all politicians, suddenly what Trump detractors are attempting to charge Trump with in hopes of undermining public support for him are actions that they take for themselves in their day-to-day lives for the benefit of their own families. So when Trump starts applying the types of charges applied to him to other Washington pols, suddenly everyone in Washington gets decidedly uncomfortable. When you see how someone like Romney behaves towards Trump, doesn't it get you thinking that maybe Romney has helped his kid along in some way that may be improper or he's just trying to further his own political fortunes and that he's not altogether serious about the latest iteration of the establishment coup against Trump? After all, isn't Mitt Romney the son of George Romney, as George W. and Jeb Bush are of George H.W. Bush, and Prescott Bush is the son of Jeb Bush, and Patrick Kennedy is the son of Ted Kennedy, or Nancy Pelosi is the daughter of Thomas D'Alesandro? Do you see why people are uncomfortable with what Trump is doing to Biden and why they speak of impeaching Trump in spite of the complete lack of a crime?

It's not only that, look at where their kids go to college Hunter Biden Yale law school, Chelsea Clinton Stamford, Malia Obama Harvard,Chuck Schumers daughters Yale and Harvard. It goes on and on.

[Tainari88]

Yea, that's a good point. Basically blackjack is displaying apathy by being totally cool with all these potential conflicts of interest. Rather than standing on principle and condemning it on all sides, he deflects with the classic "Well, the democrats did it! so republicans should do it too!"

This is a recipe for decline. A race to the bottom.

I grew up in a highly charged political family Rancid. My mother was the president for the PIP for years in the NYC chapter. NYC is the second largest population of Puerto Ricans in the world. After San Juan at the time. So? She was in the thick of politics for years. She never stopped her activism.

Many many people questioned my parents choices in their lives. Some got angry because my mother's value system made theirs look very very bad. She got offered plumb positions, bribes, money, control, status if she would just say Puerto Rico did not need independence among other statements. If she just shifted her position. Not to statehood but to some liberal middle ground. She never did.

She said to me and I remember it clearly, "When you are fighting for what you believe in? And you know it is the only way to get real change? Don't compromise. Compromise is only acceptable if you gained the main goal and you need some peace to move forward the most salient parts of a political agenda. If you give in to sellouts? You become like them. And you betray what you fought so hard to do and to gain for many people seeking justice. Real justice is hard to obtain. It usually paupers you. forces you into exile, keeps you unemployed, keeps you at the margins of power....because it doesn't compromise and it pressures who is currently selling out....and they are ruthless wanting to keep their positions. You are fighting a beast. Be aware of that...it is a beast. And to gain traction....you can't be naive and think if you give in that somehow your need for change will be fed. The only way to make change happen? Is to be willing to never give in to sellouts."
That was her entire philosophy on life. Most independence movements all over the world Rancid (and I have studied a lot of them) were acquired and were successful movements because they were HARD to buy off, hard to force to give in....they were persistent and tenacious and consistent and insistent. And dedicated.

Most of the people working for their nation's independence? Wind up broke, without money, without jobs, rejected, and screwed over for life. In prison for years. ANd if they did not? Had to work hard at rebuilding destroyed economies, and destroyed infrastructures and problems galore. No one wants to do that. But that is what it required for true change.

The apathetic public and the comfortable sellout politicos will never do that. So in history? They are a bunch of forgettable pieces of lying shit. And that is all they will ever be.

[Tainari88]

It's not only that, look at where their kids go to college Hunter Biden Yale law school, Chelsea Clinton Stamford, Malia Obama Harvard,Chuck Schumers daughters Yale and Harvard. It goes on and on.

They believe in elite educations for their own children but spout rhetoric about educating the masses when they allow a large portion of the lower classes children to wind up without an affordable good education.

A bunch of hypocrites. That is the truth of it.

[Finfinder]

They believe in elite educations for their own children but spout rhetoric about educating the masses when they allow a large portion of the lower classes children to wind up without an affordable good education.

A bunch of hypocrites. That is the truth of it.

This is something we can totaly agree upon. They threw a couple of B rated actresses in jail for a couple days nothing to see here anymore.

[Tainari88]

Yea, that's a good point. Basically blackjack is displaying apathy by being totally cool with all these potential conflicts of interest. Rather than standing on principle and condemning it on all sides, he deflects with the classic "Well, the democrats did it! so republicans should do it too!"

This is a recipe for decline. A race to the bottom.

I understand @blackjack21 's POV. He is in essence an Anglo background American upper middle class guy who works in the tech industry. He is a nationalist. So he thinks if the establishment implodes on both sides what is left will be vulnerable enough for a nationalistic agenda.

He believes in IQ and Eugenics and a bunch of things....but not because he likes to kick people out of his nation. But because he believes in natural selection and those who are superior will be that. His solution is to preserve the USA's 'success' by getting rid of liberalisms that have undermined what made the USA a great nation. If Trump is the instrument of liberal destruction? He will back it. He is practical that way about politics.

In the end? He truly believes the White Anglo Saxon Protestant tradition and the solid values it represents have been taken advantage of and perverted by some people who fail to uphold their social and economic obligations. They failed to think beyond a short sighted agenda.

They failed their nation, their race, their culture and their creed.

He believes in order and laws, and that each part of society do their role. As genetics, science and history has so proved.

He has his principles Rancid.

They are far Right. Nationalistic. And very WASP. That is who he is.

He is very bright. And very analytical.

Le hace falta corazon.

But that is not what he is about.

If I am wrong about him? I apologize. I took the liberty of answering for him because I spent a lot of hours answering his as Special Olympian aptly described his style....'quote bombs'. Lol.

I don't agree with any of his stuff. But he is very consistent. And he is very much a man of principle. For his ideology and thought processes. Nothing inconsistent about Blackjack.

[Rancid]

@blackjack21

What do you do in the tech industry?

[jimjam]

I understand @blackjack21 's POV.

I generally agree with your take on BJ21. I generally disagree with his politics but I like him because he is actually an intelligent Obese Donald supporter, unlike the dumb ones with their red beanies who revel in the nonsense Donald tosses out as a diversion/smoke screen to obscure their role as the saps/losers in Donald's class warfare agenda. He recognizes the rot in the American culture as I do but, unlike myself, desires to replace the existing rot with, simply, a new rot which shamelessly promotes a strict money oriented agenda with no heart where the rich get richer and the poor take it up the ass. He's not too big on moral responsibilities to the society as a whole or the Golden Rule. It's all about money and, unsurprisingly dove tailing with his personal well being, rigging the system to make the rich richer while rewarding the peons with cheap promises. He also thinks Donald is not a crook simply because he has not been convicted of a crime by America's corrupt legal system which is a part of the corrupt system that he despises. Oh that we could all have a few hundred lawyers to keep us legal while we endlessly cheat and rob our fellow citizens and, now, the United States of America. In this he is naïve in the extreme and it would follow that Al Capone was not a crook until the feds got him on a tax case.

I really do not have time for his, what S.O. so aptly named, quote bombs. I'm not as smart as he is and my fingers do not type as fast as his do. He's a ball buster like myself but I much prefer a walk by the ocean to responding to his click bait/nonsense.

Trump's body-mass-index has nothing to do with this either.

Don't let this bother you my friend but I lack respect for obese people who lack the self respect and simple discipline required to maintain good health. They advertise to the world that they have surrendered to their gluttony instincts at the cost of lugging around a few tons of disgusting lard. They may be money making machines but, to my mind, they are not too smart.

[blackjack21]

Basically blackjack is displaying apathy by being totally cool with all these potential conflicts of interest.

Conflict of interest is not a crime. Crime is crime. There are plenty of crimes committed by Trump's detractors that have not been punished. Trump himself has committed no crime. The people calling for virtue on all sides starting with Trump are really trying to stop Trump from cleaning house. It's not apathy. It's the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

For example this:

To many, that would suggest that the minimum wage ought to be like $200 an hour. The reality is that college is a rip-off. It should be subject to consumer protection laws, because they are systematically fleecing poor people and saddling them with debt and false promises of a good paying job for the legions of people seeking graduates of "black studies", "women's studies", "Asian studies", "conflict resolution", etc. Even similarly worthless degrees for sales people like "communications" promise to do better. The hard reality is that the types of jobs that pay well tend to be hard work coupled with high skill.

It's not only that, look at where their kids go to college Hunter Biden Yale law school, Chelsea Clinton Stamford, Malia Obama Harvard,Chuck Schumers daughters Yale and Harvard. It goes on and on.

It's a breeding farm for the wealthy to marry the high IQ.

I understand @blackjack21 's POV. He is in essence an Anglo background American upper middle class guy who works in the tech industry. He is a nationalist. So he thinks if the establishment implodes on both sides what is left will be vulnerable enough for a nationalistic agenda.

It's not quite that, but I think the establishment needs to be destroyed for the good of all Americans. It's not completely unlike Remainer Brits who are loyal to a non-Democratic foreign entity rather than showing allegiance to their own country and parliament.

He believes in IQ and Eugenics and a bunch of things....but not because he likes to kick people out of his nation.

IQ is an important factor in income distributions, but egalitarians resist this assertion fiercely in spite of having supported de-industrialization, cutting trade schooling and saddling the lower IQ with worthless degrees, mountains of debt and no job prospects at the outset of their adult lives.

Regrettably, Obama is no longer president that we can have fervent discussions about race. I always enjoy toying with egalitarians and their blurring of the line between uniform application of the law and a sort of absolute or concrete egalitarianism. I further find it amusing that so many of them trash Christianity while trying their level best to preserve Christ's teachings in some sort of socialist political model.

I would gladly speak at length about genetic modification. For example, what would you think about coming up with a CRISPR cas-9 genetic modification switching those with a 2-repeat allele of Monoamine Oxidase A to something less belligerent like a 5-repeat allele? It would mostly affect a small percentage of the African American population in the United States. Do you think that would be a bad idea? Do you think it should be something made available voluntarily? Do you think it should be offered in lieu of shorter sentencing for violent offenders with a 2-repeat allele? Or does the very idea horrify you to such a degree that you are mentally crippled and emotionally anguished at such a notion?

But because he believes in natural selection and those who are superior will be that.

I believe natural selection has brought us to where we are to a significant degree. Moving forward, I do not think that will be the case.

If Trump is the instrument of liberal destruction? He will back it. He is practical that way about politics.

As I said in Election 2020, my main hope is to prevent the rise of a neoliberal/neoconservative. Do you notice that I am as derisive of Mitt Romney as of Hillary Clinton?

He truly believes the White Anglo Saxon Protestant tradition and the solid values it represents have been taken advantage of and perverted by some people who fail to uphold their social and economic obligations. They failed to think beyond a short sighted agenda.

They failed their nation, their race, their culture and their creed.

I would take that same argument to Mexico: A Drug Cartel Just Defeated The Mexican Military In Battle
What happened to the pride of the Spaniards in their rule of Mexico? I would take the same argument to Catholic France, lamenter of perfidious Albion. Liberals do not even like themselves, yet believe that for some reason that the rest of us should--that they should have cast their pearls before swine.

@blackjack21

What do you do in the tech industry?

Up until last year, I spent the previous six years in cloud storage helping to build mass storage starting at the petabyte scale up into exabytes and beyond primarily for OpenStack block and object storage. It had significant applications for science, military, intelligence and law enforcement, banking, retail, and health care. Undoubtedly, I've indirectly been helping a lot of people doing innocuous things like uploading pictures of their cats to share with the world, more insidiously helping people violate music and movie copyrights, and more disturbingly helping people to stream pornography. However, the most ugly part of it is indirectly helping countries spy on their citizens. Currently, I'm working toward deploying core and edge clouds at scale in furtherance of 5G cellular telecommunications.

desires to replace the existing rot with, simply, a new rot which shamelessly promotes a strict money oriented agenda with no heart where the rich get richer and the poor take it up the ass.

You view Trump as the start of something new. I view him as a nemesis of the establishment, and hence transitional. Who will follow in Trump's footsteps? He has no obvious successor.

Don't let this bother you my friend but I lack respect for obese people who lack the self respect and simple discipline required to maintain good health. They advertise to the world that they have surrendered to their gluttony instincts at the cost of lugging around a few tons of disgusting lard.

The majority of fat people are poor. Do you really lack respect for poor fat people, or are you just trying to find a concrete reason for your disgust with Donald Trump?

[late]

It's not quite that, but I think the establishment needs to be destroyed for the good of all Americans.

So you need to destroy the country to save it.

Kinky.

It's also not how things work, it's a childish fantasy.

Also not surprising, considering your sources and lack of interest in the things experts have to say, like Profs of Constitutional Law, former Watergate prosecutors, etc; where Trump is concerned.

Hamilton wrote, in the Federalist Papers, that impeachment was about an abuse of trust. That has happened repeatedly.

You made a comment about college. There is a sane compromise that would get you part of what you want. We should offer substantial scholarships to low to median income kids to work towards STEM degrees.

You really need to read Stiglitz.

You mentioned genetic manipulation. There was a proposal by some ethicists to develop a Genetic Bill of Rights. It's a good idea.

Requiring genetic modification, even as sentencing reduction, is an ethical nightmare. And that assumes we have a level of expertise we won't have for decades.

I imagine that would be part of your trolling, I mean "toying".

[Rancid]

Conflict of interest is not a crime. Crime is crime. There are plenty of crimes committed by Trump's detractors that have not been punished. Trump himself has committed no crime. The people calling for virtue on all sides starting with Trump are really trying to stop Trump from cleaning house. It's not apathy. It's the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

You are still dodging the core of my question.

Did you understand what I asked you?

[Tainari88]

@blackjack21 I am cooking something I got to pay attention to. And I got to go pick up my little boy from school.

I think I will have to answer your 'challenges' later.

My egalitarianism is not complicated BJ. It is straight forward. It comes from Harari's book. That expert on human history. It is simple....you can't control all the elements and you can't control every aspect of human cultures and how they change with the times and the available environments. You need to stop trying to control the herd and culling the herd and thinking human life is about making nature bend to the will of a narrow group of people who think they have the ability to be the ones in charge due to som strange notion that if they are the top earners in a capitalist system it must be because they are superior to the rest. Equality is not about perfromance, intelligence, abilities or talents or proclivities or something you would like it to be about. It is about coming from a superior system. The one that modifies what changes, what doesn't change, what adapts and what doesn't adapt. And respecting that hierarchy. Not the one made up by humans for politically mundane purposes BJ.

[SpecialOlympian]

This reminds me a lot about how idiot libs whined about Trump's taxes. "He must be hiding something" they said. They insisted that he do it, and have even pursued legal means to acquire them, despite the FACT that there's no legal requirement for Trump to provide them.

In each case of impeachment in our history, it's gone to the floor for a vote. Every time. Pelosi knows this is such a tragically bad idea, though, she doesn't want House democrats to have to go on record as supporting it.

It's yet another sign which tells us that Democrats are cowardly pussies...

Do you understand, BigSteve? I need you to say, "I understand." If you don't, I'll dumb it down further and explain it to you in baby terms. I can use sock puppets and funny voices if that helps you understand it.

[/quote]

Yes, BS, that's how impeachment proceedings work. In order to move on to the stage where the Senate holds a trial there is a vote.

The House does not have to take an additional vote to decide that it's OK to conduct investigations into the Executive branch, because oversight is guaranteed to them by the Constitution.

You are mindlessly repeating GOP talking points.

Actually, exactly the opposite will occur.

Trump will be impeached by the idiot left in the House. That's a given.

When it gets to the Senate, though, they will fall far short of the 2/3 majority required to remove him from office, effectively giving him an acquittal. They're going to hand him a win, and he's going to ram that win up the collective ass of the left in this country with his re-election in 2020.

Idiot libs are too fucking stupid to understand that impeachment is pretty fucking meaningless without a conviction in the Senate...

That's fine. The impeachment doesn't have to be successful. The hearings themselves will do a fine job of forcing competent officials out (or whatever passes for competence in this administration) and preventing anyone who could effectively navigate the federal bureaucracy from signing on.

[jimjam]

The majority of fat people are poor. Do you really lack respect for poor fat people, or are you just trying to find a concrete reason for your disgust with Donald Trump?

"trying to find a concrete reason for my disgust for Donald Trump?" That's kinda stupid and, hopefully, you don't think I am quite that stupid. I will assume this is your usual click bait. First ….. My primary reason for dislike of The Fat Guy is his incompetence. This holds more sway with me even than his revolting behavior. Second …… I consider obesity to be way way more of a burden to America than illegals. Approximately 40%, or 93,000,000, of Americans are obese. This results in untold $billions burdening our medical system not to mention a massive but unmeasurable degrading of quality of life for millions. I even started a thread somewhere called "Obese America" if you care to waste some time there. I never cease to be astounded when I go to a Mall at obese people sitting in the "food court" rapidly stuffing shit food into their mouths. Fifty years ago you had to go to the circus to see people this fat. Now they are everywhere and even have motorized carts to haul themselves around I presume because they can no longer walk.

You will hear little of this burden on America in the news because junk food lobbyists and their "campaign contributions" see to it. Additionally , obese people vote.

It is vastly more opportune politically to encourage voters, not unlike what Hitler did, to hate. In this case …. illegals and so called socialists.

[Stormsmith]

I hope Nancy Pelosi continues to take her sweet time. Look how much has come out in the last month. Now, I hear she intends to keep the impeachment case simple and sweet so every one understands it, but born again news junquies are intrigued by all this Spy Vs Spy, although I also hear Republicans are growing exhausted of defending President Trump. This is making the case more and more like Nixon, who, after losing support from his fellow republicans, quit office. So, there might not necessarily have to be an impeachment. Just let him go back to New York were they can incarcerate him.

[blackjack21]

So you need to destroy the country to save it.

The establishment is not the country, and I have no intention of saving the establishment. I want to see people like Mitt Romney defeated as much as I want to see Pelosi and her ilk defeated.

Also not surprising, considering your sources and lack of interest in the things experts have to say, like Profs of Constitutional Law, former Watergate prosecutors, etc; where Trump is concerned.

It's not a lack of interest in what they have to say. I listen to them, and I disagree. I'm no longer at a point in life where I subscribe to someone else's thoughts as a substitute for thinking things through and arriving at an opinion of my own. I used to allow myself to be persuaded quite a bit more, and it led to things like me supporting the Iraq War. I defended Bush endlessly too against baseless charges of war crimes--charges that never brought him to an impeachment, and for which hundreds of thousands of people died. The gravity of the official acts of George W. Bush and Barack Obama have not warranted impeachment, yet they have each seen hundreds of thousands of people die directly as a consequence of their policies. Obama thinks to this day that he ran a scandal free presidency. Yet, Trump wants to get to the bottom of the phony charges against him from 2016 and that's an abuse of trust? Zelensky offers that he's going to resume investigations stopped by Joe Biden's actions and Trump says to provide the findings to the DoJ and that's an abuse of trust? Killing hundreds of thousands of people, displacing millions of people, launching wars, overthrowing internationally recognized governments; stationing troops in other countries without a UN resolution, the permission of the country's government, or even a Congressional resolution--that's all a-okay? Yet, doing something that isn't even a crime and is a natural function of the POTUS is a basis upon which someone might be impeached from office? I dare say you have an appallingly imbalanced and obscene sense of justice.

Hamilton wrote, in the Federalist Papers, that impeachment was about an abuse of trust. That has happened repeatedly.

Where does it say anywhere that investigating an obvious conflict of interest of a former Vice President running for POTUS that may be an indication of bribery and a violation of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act is an "abuse of trust"? Where does the constitution say that a politician running for POTUS can trust that the current POTUS won't investigate him when there is reasonable cause to investigate potential criminal activity? What other instances of "abuse of trust" would you enumerate?

You made a comment about college. There is a sane compromise that would get you part of what you want. We should offer substantial scholarships to low to median income kids to work towards STEM degrees.

If people are running for POTUS and promising things like cancelling college debt, then the fraud perpetrated by colleges and universities on students has reached sufficient proportions that we need Fair Trade Commission regulation to prevent them from exploiting people. We also need to restore trade schooling.

Requiring genetic modification, even as sentencing reduction, is an ethical nightmare. And that assumes we have a level of expertise we won't have for decades.

It's all an ethical nightmare, but it's rapidly approaching. It's also an ethical nightmare to promote hedonism, drugs, and sexual licentiousness to the point that people destroy their lives and end up homeless, do nothing for the homeless human wreckage in the aftermath, and then blame it all on people who oppose hedonism, drugs and sexual licentiousness. Many of us think that the establishment lacks even the most basic of ethics--like Hillary Clinton claiming that Tulsi Gabbard is a Russian spy. Hillary Clinton is a truly awful person, but she garnered quite a few votes in 2016.

You are still dodging the core of my question.

Did you understand what I asked you?

You asked, I answered. I don't think it's cut and dry. I don't think you can make a hard and fast moral judgement merely on a conflict of interest or the appearance of one. I do think it is helpful to avoid them. I don't think Biden's actions necessarily makes him a criminal based upon what we know; however, he should have taken steps to avoid the conflict of interest. Trump has listened to criticism of his Doral plan for the G-7 meeting and he has backed off. Biden did not.

My primary reason for dislike of The Fat Guy is his incompetence.

Is it incompetence? Or is it pursuit of goals you disagree with that you assume only an incompetent person would pursue?

Second …… I consider obesity to be way way more of a burden to America than illegals.

Fair enough, but Trump isn't in any way responsible for making people fat. I mean the food pyramid is totally wrong and came out in 1992. Why don't you lament Bush or Clinton for that, or the unelected bureaucrats doing the bidding of Congressman collecting donations from special interests? Why does that land on Trump's lap? Even before that, the massive increase in added sugar began in the 1970s with high fructose corn syrup getting the Generally Recognized As Safe (GRAS) designation. As soda started using high fructose corn syrup in lieu of cane sugar, prices declined, demand increased and obesity started to reach epidemic proportions. Why are you so loath to place the blame where it belongs, and just see Trump as one of many fat bastards around that are more victims of bad food policy than perpetrators? Jerry Nadler is a far fatter bastard, and failed to take Trump down. Do you suppose that's a character flaw on Nadler's part, and the reason he wasn't able to take down Trump? Obesity?

You will hear little of this burden on America in the news because junk food lobbyists and their "campaign contributions" see to it.

They pay for the advertising too.

Look how much has come out in the last month.

What has come out in the last month that's more substantive than the actual transcript? The proceedings are taking place in secret, in case you have forgotten.

[late]

1) The establishment is not the country, and I have no intention of saving the establishment. I want to see people like Mitt Romney defeated as much as I want to see Pelosi and her ilk defeated.


2) It's not a lack of interest in what they have to say. I listen to them, and I disagree. I'm no longer at a point in life where I subscribe to someone else's thoughts as a substitute for thinking things through and arriving at an opinion of my own.



3) Where does it say anywhere that investigating an obvious conflict of interest of a former Vice President running for POTUS that may be an indication of bribery and a violation of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act is an "abuse of trust"? Where does the constitution say that a politician running for POTUS can trust that the current POTUS won't investigate him when there is reasonable cause to investigate potential criminal activity?


4) It's all an ethical nightmare, but it's rapidly approaching.

1) Your comments lack connection to the real world. You are talking about the overthrow of the government like it was a tea party without consequence. You are babbling.

2) You are entitled to your opinion, but don't expect your fantasy world to be taken seriously.

3) Ukrainegate is a textbook abuse of power. He used the government to benefit himself at the expense of the country and it's allies.

4) Of course, but all you did there was change the subject. I offered you the answer on a silver plate, we need a Genetic Bill of Rights, but you were too busy ranting.

[BigSteve]

Yes, BS, that's how impeachment proceedings work. In order to move on to the stage where the Senate holds a trial there is a vote.

The House does not have to take an additional vote to decide that it's OK to conduct investigations into the Executive branch, because oversight is guaranteed to them by the Constitution.

You are mindlessly repeating GOP talking points.

So, would you agree, then, that it's nothing more that mindless liberal babbling when libs keep belching up their talking points that Trump release his tax returns?

[BigSteve]

That's fine. The impeachment doesn't have to be successful. The hearings themselves will do a fine job of forcing competent officials out (or whatever passes for competence in this administration) and preventing anyone who could effectively navigate the federal bureaucracy from signing on.

An unsuccessful attempt to remove the President, which is exactly what we're going to get, is going to serve to bolster the right and, more specifically, Trump. Why? Because Pelosi and Schiff are pursuing it the way they are. The American people don't like being kept in the dark, nd that's what's happening. We're not being allowed to watch the process. When it happened to Clinton, we knew what was happening. When it was about to happen to Nixon we could see it coming. Now, however, shitheads like Schiff and Pelosi expect us to simply believe what they tell us. They'll get mindless, left-wing dipshits to believe them, but thinking Americans aren't buying their bullshit...