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By Beren
#15047433
Potemkin wrote:Basic Rule of Politics #72: Tell different lies to different audiences. :lol:

Johnson also seems a pathological liar, which means the truth is never good enough for him and one can't simply tell whether he believes his lies while telling them.
User avatar
By Nonsense
#15047434
B0ycey wrote:Amen. Although leaving the EU means less freedom as you don't retain the privileges you have now throughout the EU when out.

Perhaps people need to be reminded that the UK government agreed to all EU law before it becomes enforced on us and it will be copy and pasted as UK law when we leave.


The premise only makes sense if the loss of 'privileges' or 'freedom' is not counter-balanced by the unrestricted freedoms of being outside of the E.U.

I personally like the idea of travelling unhindered throughout europe,I mean, why not,if you lived in the U.K throughout WW2, then you would appreciate the meaning of freedom, exactly how much it cost & by whom that cost was paid.

That is entirely sensible, were it related to indiginous europeans only.
What I dislike about it,is that anyone from a 'Third Country' anywhere in the world, can enter european territory, across it's borders, to claim 'assylum', as a bogus reason to exploit that freedom & to then claim benefits for a lifestyle choice unavailable to them from where they came.

It's that ridiculous Treaty change that turned off many Brits to what europe will become through unrestricted migration,to seek to remove ourselves from that scenario.

When we joined the EEC, our law immediate became second to european law, we will regain that sovereignty over our own law on leaving.
During our membership of the E.U, certain matters of law are not subject to the ECJ, we will however, as you say, bring within our British legal system, the majority of laws currently subject to E.U decisions,save for those we deem unnecessary once we leave.

They do not include laws relating to citizens rights for instance,some workers roghts may be subject to change,but such changes could be difficult to ,maintain when negotiating our future trade relationship with europe begins & could be counter-productive.

Citizens rights will be fully protected during the Transition Period,for both E.U citizens within the U.K, with British citizens living within european borders.

Free Movement during that period will continue as we are now, throught the Common Travel Area, until the end of the Transition Period, which could extend until late 2022,during that time we also retain access to the C.U & SM..
We will also be subjected to E.U law until the time we actually leave.
By BeesKnee5
#15047463
Won't it be great that our parliament will be able to pass terrible laws like the fixed term parliament act, universal credit and the poll tax.

What would we have done before when the evil EU prevented the passing of these laws.

The idea that we get more power and sovereignty by giving the career politicians more control after the years of absolutely showing they haven't a clue what control is, would be laughable if it wasn't so depressing. All they have done is reinforce what we already knew about them, winning is more important than being right as they continue their games on from the uni debating society.

Let me know when this sovereignty makes me, my family or friends have a better quality of life, because I can't see it. Being half English, half Spanish with and a half Norwegian, half Indian partner probably affects my interest in this taking back sovereignty instead of sharing it.
User avatar
By JohnRawls
#15047870
Well shit, it seems Brexit is back on. Farange just said that they are not going to contest Tories in all constituencies basically. If Labour, Lib Dems, Greens, SNP don't reach some kind of an agreement of the same kind then it is a landslide victory for the Tories.

This unifies Leave vote while remain vote is fragmented. This leaves Tories with around 40 if not 45% of the vote while remain will be split between 4 parties. Although the leave-remain divide is around 45-55 in favour of remain, there is no chance in hell they can win if the remain vote is split 4 way with majority going to Labour and Lib dems while SNP/Greens get some scraps.
User avatar
By Nonsense
#15047873
BeesKnee5 wrote:Won't it be great that our parliament will be able to pass terrible laws like the fixed term parliament act, universal credit and the poll tax.

What would we have done before when the evil EU prevented the passing of these laws.

The idea that we get more power and sovereignty by giving the career politicians more control after the years of absolutely showing they haven't a clue what control is, would be laughable if it wasn't so depressing. All they have done is reinforce what we already knew about them, winning is more important than being right as they continue their games on from the uni debating society.

Let me know when this sovereignty makes me, my family or friends have a better quality of life, because I can't see it. Being half English, half Spanish with and a half Norwegian, half Indian partner probably affects my interest in this taking back sovereignty instead of sharing it.



What you say illustrates that the populace are not politically savvy, worse than that, they are serial offenders at electing poor government's, that is the price of 'democracy'.
Talking, of which, why would any voter decide to vote for any potential or existing MP, that has consistently voted 'remain' in parliament, since 2016?

Those politicians that did vote against any measure facilitating Brexit , did so, with the utmost contempt for democracy, if voters re-elect them, then they deserve all that they get, bad laws included, because their 'democratic' credentials are totally absent.

A reason that people do not perceive 'freedom', is that they are born into a system that effectively controls them from the cradle-grave.

As a result, people cannot perceive being outside of the system paradigm of that control, which begins at a very early age & are entrapped over their lifetime's.

If you are born into a system, it seems quite 'normal', but, as one gets older, one then begins to question & reflect on the order of things in their life.

Even simple actions are the consequences of an economic or political system that reduces humanity to a unitary component of a system, in that case, is it not unsurprising that people cannot see that they are not really doing anything, other than performing on the economic treadmill of subjection.

Everything is virtually monetised, which carries a price, advertising draws in the materialistic person, often it's because someone else has a particular object, so they have to have the same.
It's the, 'keeping-up-with-the-Jones's' mentality, each time you purchase something, your mind is anticipating the next 'want', in order to keep functioning in that manner, you have to sell your labour to satisfy that materialistic hunger & there is no end to it until you 'want' no more.

If you want 'sovereignty', you can have it personally, it's simply the freedom to make choices of your own, unhindered by obligations to any system or to others, it's not nihilistic, it's a form of liberation, when that state is reached on a personal level, you are then liberated by your very own personal sovereign power.
Last edited by Nonsense on 11 Nov 2019 18:08, edited 1 time in total.
By BeesKnee5
#15047875
Nonsense wrote:

What you say illustrates that the populace are not politically savvy, worse than that, they are serial offenders at electing poor government's, that is the price of 'democracy'.
Talking, of which, why would any voter decide to vote for any potential or existing MP, that has consistently voted 'remain' in parliament, since 2016?

Those politicians that did vote against any measure facilitating Brexit , did so, with the utmost contempt for democracy, if voters re-elect them, then they deserve all that they get, bad laws included, because their 'democratic' credentials are totally absent.


We have a different view of democracy, especially representative democracy.

This isn't about the populace, is about the system devised by and for the politicians. The people have very, very little real control as each election is just shuffling the same pack of cards.
Poor government isn't the price of democracy, it's the price of our political system.

Give me sortition over this charade.
User avatar
By Nonsense
#15047877
BeesKnee5 wrote:We have a different view of democracy, especially representative democracy.

This isn't about the populace, is about the system devised by and for the politicians. The people have very, very little real control as each election is just shuffling the same pack of cards.
Poor government isn't the price of democracy, it's the price of our political system.

Give me sortition over this charade.


Everyone has their own take on the functionality of so-called 'democracy', take your own pick on them, I, like you, express it in the way that I see fit at any particular moment.


"Give me sortition over this charade".

Not sure what that's about ^? :lol:
By BeesKnee5
#15047880
Sortition is an alternative to democracy, used in ancient Greece. Similar to jury service it removes the role of professional politicians.
By Rich
#15048049
Brexit propaganda is based on an absurdity, that there is something particularly special about Britain.

A credible argument can be made that the United States is special. It certainly wasn't special due to the founders, but became special when the Amendments were incorporated. In Britain free speech, the right to bear arms, due process, the right to silence, no double jeopardy are all treated with total contempt in modern Britain.

How in Allat's name is Britain different from a typical Western European country? It has a substantial and rapidly expanding non European minority? It has a substantial and rapidly expanding Muslim population. What so unites a British Muslim with a British Infidel that is so much stronger than the bond between an anti Marxist British Infidel and an anti Marxist Dutch Infidel. Take back control? Who should take back control and for what purpose?

Brexit has been an absolute boon for the Cultural Marxist establishment? It has diverted resistance to Cultural and Corporate Marxism down a harmless channel. It doesn't matter which side of the Brexit debate Cultural Marxists choose to jump on. Whether they're Remain warriors or fake anti elitists like IRA, Gaddafi and Saddam lovers such as Claire Fox and Brendan O'Neil.

Brexit has also been an absolute boon for the "First Past the Post" establishment parties. The "First Past the Post" establishment parties are:

The Conservative Party.
The Labour Party
The SNP
The DUP
Sinn Fein

All the 5 establishment parties have a very strong common interest in maintaining First Past the Post. The In / Out referendum was designed right from the beginning as a mechanism to defend the First Past the Post establishment by the brilliant (for the Tory party) David Cameron. Establishment parties use First Past the Post system where possible maintain as a one party State as we see with the SNP in Scotland, or the LDP in Japan, but failing that they seettle for a 2 party system like Tory / Labour in England and the DUP / Sinn in Northern Ireland.
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By Potemkin
#15048050
Rich wrote:Brexit propaganda is based on an absurdity, that there is something particularly special about Britain.

A credible argument can be made that the United States is special. It certainly wasn't special due to the founders, but became special when the Amendments were incorporated. In Britain free speech, the right to bear arms, due process, the right to silence, no double jeopardy are all treated with total contempt in modern Britain.

How in Allat's name is Britain different from a typical Western European country? It has a substantial and rapidly expanding non European minority? It has a substantial and rapidly expanding Muslim population. What so unites a British Muslim with a British Infidel that is so much stronger than the bond between an anti Marxist British Infidel and an anti Marxist Dutch Infidel. Take back control? Who should take back control and for what purpose?

Brexit has been an absolute boon for the Cultural Marxist establishment? It has diverted resistance to Cultural and Corporate Marxism down a harmless channel. It doesn't matter which side of the Brexit debate Cultural Marxists choose to jump on. Whether they're Remain warriors or fake anti elitists like IRA, Gaddafi and Saddam lovers such as Claire Fox and Brendan O'Neil.

Brexit has also been an absolute boon for the "First Past the Post" establishment parties. The "First Past the Post" establishment parties are:

The Conservative Party.
The Labour Party
The SNP
The DUP
Sinn Fein

All the 5 establishment parties have a very strong common interest in maintaining First Past the Post. The In / Out referendum was designed right from the beginning as a mechanism to defend the First Past the Post establishment by the brilliant (for the Tory party) David Cameron. Establishment parties use First Past the Post system where possible maintain as a one party State as we see with the SNP in Scotland, or the LDP in Japan, but failing that they seettle for a 2 party system like Tory / Labour in England and the DUP / Sinn in Northern Ireland.

What's so bad about a one-party state? Any self-respecting political party which believes in its own ideology aspires to being in total control of the political system. Why should we tolerate political error and deviationism? :eh:
By B0ycey
#15048113
JohnRawls wrote:Well shit, it seems Brexit is back on. Farange just said that they are not going to contest Tories in all constituencies basically. If Labour, Lib Dems, Greens, SNP don't reach some kind of an agreement of the same kind then it is a landslide victory for the Tories.

This unifies Leave vote while remain vote is fragmented. This leaves Tories with around 40 if not 45% of the vote while remain will be split between 4 parties. Although the leave-remain divide is around 45-55 in favour of remain, there is no chance in hell they can win if the remain vote is split 4 way with majority going to Labour and Lib dems while SNP/Greens get some scraps.


Seems Farage backs BoJos Brexit. :hmm:

Funny as he claims it's a rehash of Mays deal and isn't Brexit at all. So who does he plan to ruse? It must to the Red Brexiteers.

Corbyn best jump on the Thatcher wagon and remind them what Farage and Johnson are all about. If it is only about Brexit he can kiss goodbye to large areas in the North so now is the time to get his message out. And yes, perhaps to keep votes high for him a pact with the already Remain alliance should be paramount.

Vanity is for the weak. Today is about unity.
By Atlantis
#15048236
It's obviously much better to invest in the single market than in the British market.

Why did the Brexocritters get wrong so badly? :?:

Tesla cites Brexit as Germany chosen over UK for European plant

Tesla’s boss Elon Musk has said Brexit uncertainty played a role in the firm’s decision to build its first European factory in Germany rather than the UK.

The billionaire entrepreneur revealed that the firm’s European battery plant would be built on the outskirts of Berlin.

Speaking to Auto Express after making the announcement, Musk said: “Brexit [uncertainty] made it too risky to put a gigafactory in the UK.”

The US electric carmaker also plans to locate a research and development base in the German capital. Musk announced the Berlin decision at a car industry awards ceremony on Wednesday night hosted by the German tabloid Bild.

Musk said: “Some of the best cars in the world are made in Germany. Everyone knows that German engineering is outstanding, for sure, and that’s part of the reason why we are locating our gigafactory Europe in Germany. We are also going to create an engineering and design centre in Berlin.”

In November 2016 Musk downplayed the effects of Brexit and said Tesla planned to build an R&D base in the UK. He had previously said that if there was enough demand a factory could subsequently be built in the UK, although Tesla planned to open its first European factory on the continent.

Aside from batteries, Tesla will also build its Model 3 and Model Y vehicles in Berlin. Production is expected to start in 2021. Musk told the award audience: “I come to Berlin a lot – Berlin rocks!”
By Patrickov
#15048246
Potemkin wrote:What's so bad about a one-party state? Any self-respecting political party which believes in its own ideology aspires to being in total control of the political system. Why should we tolerate political error and deviationism? :eh:


One party state without check and balance is absolutely a bad thing. See China now.

Britain, on the other hand, is not really a one party state. It is just that the largest oppositions are either too incompetent (Labour) or busy biting each other (Lib Dems seem very keen to regrab past glory) at the moment.
By Patrickov
#15048248
BeesKnee5 wrote:Sortition is an alternative to democracy, used in ancient Greece. Similar to jury service it removes the role of professional politicians.


Seriously, how often is a sortition done in this proposal? Every parliament session?

I am afraid the logistical overhead will be very high.
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By Potemkin
#15048249
Patrickov wrote:One party state without check and balance is absolutely a bad thing. See China now.

The paradox of politics is rather like the paradox of capitalist competition - any self-respecting capitalist is striving for total market domination, a monopoly. But actually achieving that goal would, paradoxically, end the very system of competition itself. Every self-respecting political party is striving for their total domination of the political system - this is true for the Hong Kong protesters as well as for the Chinese government. But actually achieving this goal would end politics, which would be replaced by something else (probably a civil war).

Britain, on the other hand, is not really a one party state. It is just that the largest oppositions are either too incompetent (Labour) or busy biting each other (Lib Dems seem very keen to regrab past glory) at the moment.

Britain is a one-party state with three rival factions within that one party, who have agreed to settle their differences at the ballot box rather than with bullets.
By Patrickov
#15048252
Potemkin wrote:Britain is a one-party state with three rival factions within that one party, who have agreed to settle their differences at the ballot box rather than with bullets.


That sounds more like Japan than Britain. I am not convinced that the main parties are actually one. Some proof is probably necessary.
By BeesKnee5
#15048308
Patrickov wrote:
Seriously, how often is a sortition done in this proposal? Every parliament session?

I am afraid the logistical overhead will be very high.


We already have an organisation carrying out this kind of logistics. The jury service.

If I had a preference for it to be used it would be as a replacement for the lord's and lasting one parliamentary session.
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By Nonsense
#15048313
Patrickov wrote:That sounds more like Japan than Britain. I am not convinced that the main parties are actually one. Some proof is probably necessary.


Looked at from the point of there being a loose association between the parties, then the premise is not too far off the mark.

Tony BLAIR abandoned Clause 4,embraced privatisation, including PFI in the N.H.S under Gordon BROWN, 'Light Touch Regulation' of the Financial Centre in the City of London, stopped building social housing, encouraged uncontrolled immigration, along with the Lib Dems, agreed to go along with CAMERON's government on austerity after they were kicked out of office by the voters.
Labour's record on the N.H.S was far worse than the Tories, Labour brought in many 'stealth' taxes, many more examples come to mind & such policies are common to the main parties.

It's not always clear, accepting the close alignment of the parties to each other, which is 'left' or 'right' , but Labour under BLAIR-BROWN abandoned 'socialism' with the abolition of Clause 4,then, following a public debate, all of the parties squabbled to occupy the 'Middle Ground' of politics, that is to say that they reached an accord on deceiving the voters by continuing to pretend that they were attracted to their respective class of voters.

Of course, when CAMERON-OSBORNE gained power, they hit the ground running & blew that consensus apart by reverting to type.
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By Potemkin
#15048333
Patrickov wrote:That sounds more like Japan than Britain. I am not convinced that the main parties are actually one. Some proof is probably necessary.

Too many years of 'Third Way' politics under Tony Blair et al. and David 'Call Me Dave' Cameron may have soured me somewhat, by I stand by what I said. All the main political parties in the UK are pro-capitalist, pro-business and essentially post-Thatcherite. They have almost indistinguishable policies regarding economics, social liberalism, identity politics, immigration and foreign policy. For decades now, they have been competing to occupy the same political ground - the centre. The result is beginning to look very much like a one-party state with three squabbling factions within that one party.
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