Evo Morales Gets Bounced; Seeks Asylum in Mexico - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15048477
Potemkin wrote:Even if the Russians, by some miracle, achieved overwhelming abundance, they would probably find some way to lose it all. That's just how they roll. :lol:

It all depends on whether how Putin's succession goes, I guess. I wonder if how much his legacy depends on his own personal charisma, intelligence and authority and if it falls apart without him.
#15048482
Beren wrote:It all depends on whether how Putin's succession goes, I guess. I wonder if how much his legacy depends on his own personal charisma, intelligence and authority and if it falls apart without him.

My guess is that it will probably collapse without him. But who knows? It may limp on for many more decades, just as the Soviet system limped on after Stalin's death, but was never the same without him. Never underestimate the power of inertia in human affairs. Lol.
#15048491
blackjack21 wrote:There are more than two views in the world Tainari88--yours and the bad people who don't agree with you. Presuming inequality does not infer a lack of empathy. Seeing the world as it is and not how you would like it to be is probably a bit too sobering for you. That doesn't imply a lack of concern for others, though.


Oh Relampaguito, I am sorry to a bearer of bad news but your points of view about many people whom you don't want in your own nation, and limiting your concern for your small reduced group of people who have had access to privileges, educations and resources for generations, and then to turn around and not do anything or even impede the others who need the educations, investment and resources because your political philosophy is about inequality? Is a cheap cop out. You don't have the excuse of being uneducated, not well read, and ignorant like some others on this board. No, you don't. I happen to believe wholeheartedly that the ones with more education, more leisure time for intellectual development and skills that are helpful like your coding skills and technology skills, have a much greater responsibility to be open and service oriented to the ones who struggle mightily just to survive, than just ordinary Americans who get high school minimal educations and work for slightly above minimum wages. You shirk that responsibility BJ, because you are a nationalist, you believe in genetic engineering, which you never answered the questions I posed to you about getting over the ethical, and economic barriers all over the world to genetic modification programs, etc. You skirt around a lot of topics related to taking responsibility for other people not from your group BJ. You are a bright, intelligent, physically healthy man, and on top of that you keep pushing improving the genes of all people who are capable. Your genes are your ideal? Yes or no?Why aren't you married and having babies by now? You can support them. There is no doubt about that. And you can pass on your genes and make sure the superior people have a new generation to work with. You aren't a lefty who believes in population control for the superior folks. Why promote genetic engineering for the lower IQ ones when the higher IQ ones are not reproducing? Don't give me an excuse about the liberals killed apple pie and Chevrolet stuff Blackjack.

Making relationships work is difficult. I won't judge you about that. I have no idea why you promote genetic modifications and don't even have children as an Anglo in California? I bring this topic up because I happen to think a value system that is discriminatory in a person's politics will bleed over into the personal arena of that person's life. I will let you (as the intelligent man you are) to make the correlations of what that means.

You don't have empathy for sure. For Puerto Rico and for many people whom you deem as--unproductive. You just sincerely believe that because there are differences like people born with disabilities and or less abilities for a certain task, or role it means they should be valued differently. That is a BIG ASS PROBLEM. It is? If you want a breakdown with details of why that is? Why a baby is different than an adult but that baby has an innate human value that is equal to an adult's innate human value, how a woman and a man are responding to sex and hormones differently from each other but fundamentally are both human and interdependent on survival of the species, and as such complement each other, and in terms of many aspects of society and law have to be treated equally. What is wrong with lack of understanding that diversity and variation is not a cause for discrimination of denial of rights or opportunities or development, but a strength that builds up humanity's abilities to survive. You did not present to me arguments that are persuasive enough to change my mind. You believe that people are not equal. You don't believe in the foundation of egalitarianism in not even Jeffersonian democratic principles. That is what you wrote. Why? I know why. But this thread is about Evo Morales. The coup. He is safely in Mexico and under the care of the Mexican government. I am smiling because the political talk show radio circuit in Mexico in Spanish is all abuzz with the implications of having Evo Morales in Mexico and what that might mean to filtering out sicarios bent on killing the Aymara Indian ex president of Bolivia......Mexico City is a very large and complex city. And who knows what will happen to the man?

No, BJ, I am unconvinced about your foundation for your political philosophy. That people are essentially not equal and therefore the society has no obligation to those outside a certain reduced circle of people that are in privileged positions. No. I don't agree with that. I never will. I don't come here to force others to agree with me. I come here to write about my point of view and about my political philosophy. If others like it or not? It is their freedom of conscience or choice. That is the nature of human free will and the nature of human experience. I already am very open about where I fall on the political spectrum.




Trying to see the entire world through legal or political abstractions leaves you incapable of seeing the world as it is. It leaves you making inferences based on ideology rather than on empirical observation. Exploitation and inequality do not go hand in hand. Babies are not equal to adults, but we don't exploit them. Yet, we don't allow them to vote. That's inequality, but it's not evil.


Come on BJ, Relampaguito, do I have to point out the very obvious to a very very intelligent man like you are? Exploitation and inequality don't go hand and hand? WTF, are you talking about? Let us take two simple examples. Why did slavery exist? Can we agree that slaves whether white ones like Slavs from the Roman Empire or Africans from the West African slave trade routes were human beings? Yes. Did they get exploited? Yes. Was that exploitation based on inequality? Yes. They were not considered human and were considered property in one case, and in the other case had extremely limited rights in another case. Why? In order to exploit their labor. Otherwise you have to under a capitalist wage system you have to pay them. In the other system you don't. Period. How much money can you save by not paying people for their work? A a small amount? Yes or no? Or a large amount? Salaries and paying people salaries is probably the vast majority of expenses any capitalist business big or small has to account for. Rent is the second one or mortgages that are commercial. Period. If you can pay people a lot less from the beginning you save a whole lot of money and you can sell your business as a net gain business and attract investors and so on....the more you squeeze them the better it is for the ones who are in positions of being able to invest. Sure, technological gains changes the equations. But Relampaguito, how many nations are so developed that the technological advances are replacing millions of labor units in the entire planet? You can't really advance nations in places like Bolivia if the majority of people don't own tablets, smart phones, cars, have advanced water treatment plants, electrical power grids that are updated and reliable, long and good school calendars staffed with highly trained teachers, health clinics, hospitals, and stores, etc that stock everything that creates an infrastructure conducive to consumer social patterns. Do you think illiterate people in these nations are naturally ínferior? How do you know they are if they never got an education at all? Or never had the proper nutrition, or training? Or who have had nothing of opportunities for many things. I tell you one thing. BOLIVIA is a nation who doesn't like corporate models of life. It is the only country in which McDonald's had to close their doors due to not being able to sell enough to keep their doors open. The Bolivians don't like corporations. Why? Indian people of the Andes I studied for a long time. They are not into corporate stuff. They don't like it. That is the main reason why the neoliberals too....are up in arms against that society as well. The Bolivians are not into Big Macs. I have a video there.....in which there is an analysis in Spanish about the McDonald's etc model doesn't gain anything. Evo Morales actually had some real growth happening WITHOUT that corporate shit going on everywhere. That is damn CONCERNING to these people who keep pushing that the only road to prosperity is corporations. Privatization. If another model becomes successful does that pose a threat to their hegemony on capitalist models? YES. KILL THAT MODEL. Period. That is what they are after.

Legalities and abstractions? Why do societies have laws, why have rules and why have political institutions? You know the answers to that one BJ. What I find surprising is how you try to not argue that how one structures those societies and those laws is about values. It is. And that changes. It is malleable and it is adaptable. We are adaptable species. You won't win any arguments with me stating that things are static. But apparently what is your point with that? That you can't change what is unjust so don't even try? Do you know how bad that sounds? And it is also anti-historical. All human progress in societies with time do change and do adapt and are incredibly creative. It is the law of this world. I am part of that. We all are.


People who lived in areas that have no growing or hunting season in the winter had to store an excess of food to survive. They developed this compulsive behavior, and it helped them to survive. That may cause them lots of problem in advanced societies without actual scarcity. However, you can only reason with who someone is, but not what someone is. Try telling an addict they need to stop doing drugs. You might find it surprising that they ignore you. Understanding addiction means understanding the difference between the frontal cortex (reason, language, etc) and pre-frontal cortex and limbic system.



No, BJ, I am a believer in understanding the mechanisms in human beings. That includes the physical mechanisms and the problems with human behavior. If you study the history of drug abuse? In social work I had to do that---you discover a pattern--it is that refined drugs come from plants. The plant in its unrefined form and prepared a traditional way like it is in Bolivia by the Andean tribes such as Evo Morales' Aymara people? Is a traditional preparation. It gives you a very mild and pleasant boost of energy that helps in thin air regions of the world like the altiplano of Peru or Bolivia. I did a case study on that in my senior year of Anthro by the way....it actually helps you to adapt to that environment. The issue became when you refine it into a white powder and you take it out of its natural form...and you tweak it to extremes. It loses it original form and effectiveness and it becomes hyper direct....etc. Anyway I digress, even drug addicts can change their brains and behavior. In fact, the leading scientist in the USA in charge of finding cures for alcoholism and drug addict behaviors is a descendant of Leon Trotsky's Mexican Russian family. True story. She is a Mexican and a scientist. And in charge of the drug addiction research studies in the USA.

Look, BJ, the truth of the matter is this? You have power to influence people who you deeply care about and put energy behind. You don't have power to influence people whom you dismiss and reject. That is REALITY. You think your discrimination or behavior of that won't have some kind of consequence Senor Blackjack--but it does! All of it does. Look at all those elitist Bolivians who thought the Bolivian Indians would accept their circumstances for all time? Would never organize and would never get enough resistance going to put in their own president. They were WRONG. There is a consequence to ignoring the lower classes. And you can't win their trust BJ by thinking of them as INFERIORS or unequal. They know how it feels like to be ignored, mistreated and lied to and deceived and exploited and dismissed. And they can vote too....and they can organize too, and they can fight and they can kill and they are not passive. Start thinking about the consequences of thinking that others don't know that you think they are pieces of shit unworthy of consideration. Because all of that thought process has serious consequences. Forever.

I
f you shrink the middle class, you get a less democratic system of government.


You think the Bolivian elite and the corporations bent on getting a hold of the largest reserve of lithium in Bolivia are concerned primarily with building up a democratic government in Bolivia Relampaguito? Of making Bolivian Indian people think they are middle class and consume like American suburbanites? They can't even open 8 McDonald's chain store restaurants in La Paz, etc because the Bolivians don't fall for Ronald McDonald. They are not corporate thinkers. That is the issue they have with los bolivianos Blackjack!

There's not much capitalism in Bolivia. It's not like Bolivians are making iPhones at rock bottom wages. It's a fairly primitive agricultural and resource economy. Evo Morales did little to change that. If you want to bring people out of poverty, you need physical capital, automation, education, etc. Wealth redistribution in a poor economy just makes everyone equally poor. China figured out that abandoning communism was the only way it could compete, and it went from a backwater to the second largest economy in the world in 30 years.


Figure out why so many corporations don't want many mineral resource rich nations to improve its economies and their governments? It is not hard. Automation, education? Where is the nation building commitment of these fucking capitalist warmongering pieces of shit BJ? They don't even want to keep Puerto Rican public schools open! They don't want to invest in water treatment plants for Puerto Rico and upgrading the electrical grid for Puerto Rico after a damn hurricane and the Ricans are USA statutory non voting citizens! What are they going to do for the Andean regions like Bolivia and its traditional people? They don't CARE! They are non caring people. Back to square one....with you. You don't care about them? Don't have a plan? Don't want to help? Get the hell out and let them do their own model. It is their land anyway. If they want to live in traditional ways with llamas, and quinoa and chuno, and everything else? LET THEM. Why force that model on them? Because they want the resources and the minerals and the cheap labor but they don't want to give a damn thing in return? How is that going to convince people to not go for the SOCIALISM? It won't!!!


The rest of what you write I can address but as usual Relampaguito you are too fast on the keys for me for now. I got to go. But before I do? Start analyzing all the problems you got with the Left model in the USA? And you think that Left model of the USA liberal hippy types is something that will apply to Andean peoples like Bolivia? You need to start studying different models that are not about some neoliberals, or some liberal bullshit from the bay area. Because you are a two model man with that too.

Anyway I will come back with the rest of answers to your observations, critiques later on....I got to deal with some stuff...Mexican beaurocracy is not without its challenges! Hee hee. :D
Last edited by Tainari88 on 14 Nov 2019 18:52, edited 1 time in total.
#15048494
Potemkin wrote:My guess is that it will probably collapse without him. But who knows? It may limp on for many more decades, just as the Soviet system limped on after Stalin's death, but was never the same without him. Never underestimate the power of inertia in human affairs. Lol.

I wouldn't think the USSR depended on Stalin's power, authority and methods so much as the Russian state depends on Putin now, mostly because the Communist Party ruled everything while Stalin ruled the party, and the party was solid. However, today it's Putin that rules, so the whole thing can collapse and fall apart and a civil war among the oligarchs can break out if his succession goes wrong.
#15048499
Potemkin wrote:Even if the Russians, by some miracle, achieved overwhelming abundance, they would probably find some way to lose it all. That's just how they roll.

Surely they wouldn't even want overwhelming abundance. They might think they do, but ultimately, misery, strife and extremely long, depressing novels are absolutely integral to the Russian national character. Be careful what you wish for, and all that... :lol:
#15048500
Heisenberg wrote:Surely they wouldn't even want overwhelming abundance. They might think they do, but ultimately, misery, strife and extremely long, depressing novels are absolutely integral to the Russian national character. Be careful what you wish for, and all that... :lol:

Indeed, Heisenberg, indeed.... :lol:
#15048533
link wrote:1829 - Gold discovered on Cherokee lands

When gold was discovered on Cherokee land in Georgia, whites poured onto Cherokee lands by the thousands, ignoring treaties, burning villages, and flaunting the U.S. Constitution and the Non-Intercourse laws passed by Congress. The Cherokee turned to Washington for help, but President Andrew Jackson responded by withdrawing all federal troops from the area and turning a blind eye to the reports of wide-spread carnage.


And thus, this modernizing First Nation was destroyed by the USA.

Likewise, Bolivia has enough Lithium to power 100 million electric Jeep Cherokees. So the "Bolivians" (South American Palestinians?)[/i] may be made to walk a few thousand miles to Oklahoma just like the Cherokee were a short time ago. And the Palestinians, an even shorter time ago.
#15048537
Potemkin wrote:Indeed, Heisenberg, indeed.... :lol:


Look, Bellisimo, Senor Guapo, Mr. Handsome in the extreme, stop veering off into the Russian past and so on--and concentrate on Bolivian issues.

Do you think Evo might make a comeback like Chavez did after they tried to oust him? Lol.

See what a military backing you does in a nation? Life or death. Chavez was a paratrooper from the Venezuelan military so he had some clout with the military. What is interesting is that many believe in the states that Latin American military people are from the Right of the political spectrum only. They are not. Got some very Left people in Latin America in the military of their nations. Chavez was one. Michelle Bachelet's father was ex military too and he was left as well. Anti Pinochet. She was picked up and tortured by the Pinochet regime. Chile's troubles are different. But it is interesting to think that all of the people out there are of one mentality. No.

Alberto Fernandez is the prez of Argentina. He is a lefty. You win some and you lose some. But the Left keeps going with the need for changes.

If the right was great for the lower classes in Latin America? They would have solved the poverty issues. But they don't because they only sell off their nations and don't do anything for the poorest of their countries. They just live off the bribes from the metropolis and the international capitalist class...always like sharks looking for a break to get in there and exploit. It is a very difficult situation.

What is your opinion on Evo Morales' possibilities of political survival in Mexican exile?

Big kiss for you Bellisimo....se te quiere de gratis.... ;)
#15048540
Tainari88 wrote:You shirk that responsibility BJ, because you are a nationalist, you believe in genetic engineering, which you never answered the questions I posed to you about getting over the ethical, and economic barriers all over the world to genetic modification programs, etc.

I've born thousands of dollars in medical costs, and opened my home to others in need for years at a time--I presently have a needy house guest approaching two years of sobriety and still trying to sort out a work situation. Just because I don't believe as you do doesn't mean that things I have done simply disappear from the face of the Earth on account of them not fitting into your tidy but misguided ideology that asserts, contrary to the evidence, that people who don't believe as you do are somehow inherently evil.

I've told you I would debate genetics with you in a separate thread.
#15048551
"extreme right-wing Christian theocratic ideology," ... what are they going to do when they find out that they are too brown for White Supremacists?

'We Don't Want Any Dictators': Bolivians Flood Streets to Protest Right-Wing, Anti-Indigenous Coup

"Anti-Indigenous racism is at the heart of what's happening in Bolivia."

Unrest continued in Bolivia Thursday as protests against the right-wing coup that unseated democratically-elected President Evo Morales on Sunday and the anti-Indigenous ideology behind it entered their fourth day.

Demonstrators filled the streets of the Bolivian capitol, La Paz, waving the indigenous wiphala flag and registering their disapproval of the new interim government of Jeanine Añez.

"We don't want any dictators," protester Paulina Luchampe told Time Magazine on Wednesday. "This lady has stepped on us—that's why we're so mad."



New president Añez has come under criticism for a history of comments promoting an extreme right-wing Christian theocratic ideology, including referring to the country's Indigenous population as "satanic."

Members of the country's police and military forces, whose support for the coup over the weekend precipitated Morales' resignation Sunday, have been photographed cutting the wiphala flag off of their uniforms.

"Anti-Indigenous racism is at the heart of what's happening in Bolivia," tweeted Cherokee activist and writer Rebecca Nagle.



Right-wing militias burning the flag and attacking the country's Indigenous protest movement mean that the conflict is more than just about political differences, said Bolivian feminist Adriana Guzman—it's about the country's right-wing being opposed to everything the Morales government stood for.

"The coup d'état is against all of that," said Guzman. "That's why they degrade. That's why they punish. That's why they burn the Indigenous wiphala flag."

Protests continued on Thursday.



In an opinion piece for The Guardian, Nick Estes, co-founder and editor of The Red Nation, said that the difference between the two camps in Bolivia is clear.

"The future of Bolivia is currently marching in the streets, the millions of people who voted for Evo in the last elections, the 47% whose voices and votes were stolen by the violent return of the old, colonial oligarchy," wrote Estes.

Protester Luchampe said she hoped the protests would continue until there is a resolution to the conflict that undoes the coup.

"We're going to fight with our brothers and sisters until Evo Morales is back," said Luchampe. "We ask for his return. He needs to put the house in order."
#15048567
blackjack21 wrote:I've born thousands of dollars in medical costs, and opened my home to others in need for years at a time--I presently have a needy house guest approaching two years of sobriety and still trying to sort out a work situation. Just because I don't believe as you do doesn't mean that things I have done simply disappear from the face of the Earth on account of them not fitting into your tidy but misguided ideology that asserts, contrary to the evidence, that people who don't believe as you do are somehow inherently evil.

I've told you I would debate genetics with you in a separate thread.


When have I said you or someone who disagrees with me is inherently evil? That is not what I said. I said, that you don't believe in equality BJ. You don't.

You are very much class conscious and also nationalistic and you said, that you don't think the USA has any obligation towards other peoples outside its borders. I have argued that you will have big problems trying to cope with these type of situations in Bolivia where you got what the John Perkins talks about, "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" sort of problems. If you don't stop or put some brakes on these capitalists without national loyalties? They will use that enormous power they have to not only get that horrible deal pushed through for the Bolivians but every other nation out there where they can get everything out of people and never give them anything worth preserving. They take that power and use the same bullshit tactics without ethics on their OWN PEOPLE at home. IN the USA. That is what I was talking about with Annatar14.

You think I am wrong about that? I am not. Internationalist stuff BJ. It will be the solution to these freaks. But you keep on thinking you only have obligations to a reduced group. You don't.

Human connections are everywhere. Look at Evo? He picked up the phone and called another socialist. This time one in another country. Mexico. He wasn't thinking, I need to stick to my nation only. Who cares about what is going on somewhere else? That is for damn fools BJ. Too narrow.

But, that is your choice. Not mine.

How does someone who is class conscious which you are. Everything regarding classism that I have read from you is saying "BJ is class conscious", what then is a person supposed to conclude BJ? That you are not thinking in reduced terms. You are.

In terms of that debate about genetic engineering? I hope I can make it happen with you? But I started a novel writing course soon and I think I am booking on out of this forum forever or for years like I have done in the past.

See if we can make the debates happen. Who cares if it is just you and I going at it? I like the differences.

I got to go for my dreams. I promised someone special I would....asi es.

Genetics? I will do my homework. Hee hee. ;)

You never answered about the babies....you are the same age as my husband was when I got pregnant. Don't be thinking it is too late for that in life. You know that famous salsa song? Pedro Navaja...it has a line in it that says? Sorpresas te da la vida?

It is true. Life gives you surprises. If you knew my first name in real life? You would get it. Hee hee. @QatzelOk knows my first name. So he will get it. hee hee.

Hasta la proxima caballero,
#15048569




While there is a blackout on any resistance in the media in Bolivia, this happens:


Rugoz wrote:Well too bad she herself resigned from her position, making the vice president of the Senate Anez the official interim president. :lol:


Yeah, just like Evo Morales "resigned", after a coup took place and their allies/family/friends were attacked, homes were ransacked and threatened with murder.

Only after rigging the elections a second time.


Who rigged elections? Citation needed for this bullshit.

Lol at you claiming to being an anti-interventionist earlier. :lol: :lol: :lol:
#15048762
But this thread is about Evo Morales. The coup. He is safely in Mexico and under the care of the Mexican government. I am smiling because the political talk show radio circuit in Mexico in Spanish is all abuzz with the implications of having Evo Morales in Mexico and what that might mean to filtering out sicarios bent on killing the Aymara Indian ex president of Bolivia......Mexico City is a very large and complex city. And who knows what will happen to the man?

So long as he's careful with his security, he should be safe. As for his long-term political future in Bolivia, that seems more problematic. His use of the Bolivian Supreme Court to overturn the legislation on term limits was politically unwise - controlling the judiciary is pointless unless you also control the armed forces. It's not the judges who ultimate decide anything in politics, it's the guys with the guns. Chavez understood this, and Morales apparently didn't. Having said that, Morales still has huge popular support among the indigenous population of Bolivia, and if the coup leaders make enough political mistakes of their own and lose control of the country, Morales might make a comeback....
#15048770
Potemkin wrote:So long as he's careful with his security, he should be safe. As for his long-term political future in Bolivia, that seems more problematic. His use of the Bolivian Supreme Court to overturn the legislation on term limits was politically unwise - controlling the judiciary is pointless unless you also control the armed forces. It's not the judges who ultimate decide anything in politics, it's the guys with the guns. Chavez understood this, and Morales apparently didn't. Having said that, Morales still has huge popular support among the indigenous population of Bolivia, and if the coup leaders make enough political mistakes of their own and lose control of the country, Morales might make a comeback....


I agree 100% with this assessment.

Why oh why do you have to be so intelligent and beautiful too? It would make the gods on Mt Olympus jealous and plotting against you darling man.

Think about that.

**********************************************************************************

@blackjack21 hmmm. You may be on the road then for a week?

Alright, la chispita, I will expect you to be ready to debate next Saturday then?

It is the battle of the alleles and the mutations and the helix. Lol.
#15048826
Red_Army wrote:El pueblo unido jamas sera vencido.

Fuck this coup and everyone who supported it. The scum who kicked out Evo will get their time on the wall soon enough, god willing.


So there supposed to be no consequences for violating term limits ? :eh:
#15048833
JohnRawls wrote:So there supposed to be no consequences for violating term limits ? :eh:

I repeat what I said earlier: the election was legal (though politically unwise, in retrospect) - the Bolivian Supreme Court had overturned the law on term limits. The election was legal; the coup was illegal.
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