Top income brackets should be taxed at 99%. - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15049582
B0ycey wrote:Are you expecting the rich to become poor if the income bracket increases?


No, but they will move elsewhere and the nation loses that revenue.

Ultimately there should be a standard living before tax. And most definitely a minimum wage that reflects a standard of living. If you cannot afford to live on a 40 hour week there is something fucking wrong with the system.


We have not achieved the Utopia yet. Until them some people will align themselves at the bottom. However, there is hope! I believe technology will soon offer a great standard of living to the poor and they may not even need to work. The problem is that having nothing to do may lead to nihilism and further frug addiction. The Utopia will come when the rich achieve a state of redundant wealth and massive technological development. At that time distinction will not be based on money but on other attributes such as looks or intelligence.

Expecting the wealthy to pay their fair share who exploit surplus labor of their employees is a very small ask indeed.


Exploit?? Sure, it may happen if there is a massive surplus of labor. I also agree that working implies some sort of slavery. Even the self employed have to work for someone.

Assume you work in large factory assembly line manufacturing electric cars. Your job is to put the screws on the bumper. How is the owner of the factory stealing your surplus labor. Would you even have that surplus if you were not employed by the factory? Why is it wrong for the owner tom sell the electric car for a profit which I assume is the surplus labor?
#15049585
late wrote:You need numbers, not guesses.

Image



I would never expect the USA to have low poverty rates like much smaller nations with a homogenous population. We know the war on poverty was an abysmal failure. Giving away free stuff does not eliminate poverty. Capitalism is highly imperfect and does not change the alignment of competency and talent. I rather have a spectrum of rich, upper mid, mid, and poor than one uniform economic class.
#15049587
Julian658 wrote:
No, but they will move elsewhere and the nation loses that revenue.



We have not achieved the Utopia yet. Until them some people will align themselves at the bottom. However, there is hope! I believe technology will soon offer a great standard of living to the poor and they may not even need to work. The problem is that having nothing to do may lead to nihilism and further frug addiction. The Utopia will come when the rich achieve a state of redundant wealth and massive technological development. At that time distinction will not be based on money but on other attributes such as looks or intelligence.



Exploit?? Sure, it may happen if there is a massive surplus of labor. I also agree that working implies some sort of slavery. Even the self employed have to work for someone.

Assume you work in large factory assembly line manufacturing electric cars. Your job is to put the screws on the bumper. How is the owner of the factory stealing your surplus labor. Would you even have that surplus if you were not employed by the factory? Why is it wrong for the owner tom sell the electric car for a profit which I assume is the surplus labor?



That's what the clowns said when Clinton raised taxes. Didn't happen.

You see economics as a religion. You won't admit it, but there it is.

In addition, it's the Classic Comics version of economics.

"Stiglitz blames rent-seeking for causing the inequality, with the wealthy using their power to shape monopolies, incur favorable treatment by the government, and pay low taxes. The end result is not only morally wrong but also hurts the productivity in the economy...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Price_of_Inequality

"Thus, a major thrust of modern economics is to understand the role of institutions in creating and shaping markets. The question then is: what is the relative role and importance of these alternative hypotheses? There is no easy way of providing a neat quantitative answer, but recent events and studies have lent persuasive weight to theories putting greater focus on rent-seeking and exploitation..."

"So overall wealth increases, but this does not lead to an increase in the productive capacity of the economy or in the mean marginal productivity or average wage of workers. On the contrary, wages may stagnate or even decrease, because the rise in the share of rents has happened at the expense of wages."
https://evonomics.com/joseph-stiglitz-i ... ed-income/
#15049589
@Steve_American wrote to Julian:

I know, you didn't think they have gone backwards. You believed the lies that economists tell you. Well, open your eyes. I'm telling you that 60% or more of households have gone backwards for 3 decades. Can you see now that they have gone backwards? And then, do you care?


Steve, he doesn't understand many things at all. He is discovering new things everyday. I am afraid you are one of the few people who can tolerate his dancing around his own lack of understanding.

I gave up on trying to get him to admit he doesn't even read many things others post. If he did not understand the graphs? Charts? Links? Inflation adjustments? It is because he has not even had the courtesy to read the information others post in answer to his writings.

In other words? He is not here to read other people's inputs. He is here to project his thoughts and he is right.

I wish he would be honest about his lack of efforts. I gave up on him Steve. Hopefully you and others get him to think a bit. He needs it.
#15049590
Julian658 wrote:No, but they will move elsewhere and the nation loses that revenue.


The income tax bracket is determined by salary. If they leave the country someone else will do the job.

Exploit?? Sure, it may happen if there is a massive surplus of labor. I also agree that working implies some sort of slavery. Even the self employed have to work for someone.

Assume you work in large factory assembly line manufacturing electric cars. Your job is to put the screws on the bumper. How is the owner of the factory stealing your surplus labor. Would you even have that surplus if you were not employed by the factory? Why is it wrong for the owner tom sell the electric car for a profit which I assume is the surplus labor?


What does it matter what the job is? If the labor is required to make a profit, then whoever gains that profit without working for it is exploiting it. Although I have no issue with initiative or investment but inherited wealth/power and private property. How has the factory owner required the ownership of factory to begin with?
#15049592
Tainari88 wrote:@Steve_American wrote to Julian:



Steve, he doesn't understand many things at all. He is discovering new things everyday. I am afraid you are one of the few people who can tolerate his dancing around his own lack of understanding.

I gave up on trying to get him to admit he doesn't even read many things others post. If he did not understand the graphs? Charts? Links? Inflation adjustments? It is because he has not even had the courtesy to read the information others post in answer to his writings.

In other words? He is not here to read other people's inputs. He is here to project his thoughts and he is right.

I wish he would be honest about his lack of efforts. I gave up on him Steve. Hopefully you and others get him to think a bit. He needs it.

An intellectual midget generally attacks instead of having a dialogue. She reminds me of Trump.
#15049593
B0ycey wrote:The income tax bracket is determined by salary. If they leave the country someone else will do the job.


Nope, the billionaires will leave the country and the IRS will lose the tax revenue. Happens everyday.

What does it matter what the job is? If the labor is required to make a profit, then whoever gains that profit without working for it is exploiting it. Although I have no issue with initiative or investment but inherited wealth/power and private property. How has the factory owner required the ownership of factory to begin with?


Profit without working for it!! It seems you give more importance to manual labor than creativity and ingenuity.

As for the inheritance of wealth. I will be happy to abolish inheritance, but you will not accomplish anything. Humans align themselves according to talent. If you strip Bill gates of all his money, he will find a way to make a fortune again.
#15049594
B0ycey wrote:The income tax bracket is determined by salary. If they leave the country someone else will do the job.



What does it matter what the job is? If the labor is required to make a profit, then whoever gains that profit without working for it is exploiting it. Although I have no issue with initiative or investment but inherited wealth/power and private property. How has the factory owner required the ownership of factory to begin with?


There is no exploitation. Wealth is generated by the genius of a capitalist with a fat ass sitting down and looking at his percentage sheets and living off interest.

Kevin O'Leary is a classic capitalist. He basically is cynical. The world is a tough place. No time for tears or compassion. Dog eat dog. He was a socialist as a young man when his parents paid his bills for him. Then he became a capitalist because he had to pay his own bills and the world is tough.

Capitalists B0ycey are people who don't question why they are wealthy. And they also don't care that the system they benefit from is living off of exploitation. For those cynics? If you are dumb enough to let yourself be exploited and you don't have the stomach for dog-eat-dog rapacious competition and the need to dominate and gain more and ever increasing profit margins? Then you deserve your station in life.

They really believe that capitalism is the best system. They do. It is sincere.

If you go back in history @B0ycey and you read these fantastic debates in the senate and the house of representatives before the American Civil War? The confederacy discusses in great detail why they believed in slavery as an economic institution and how it had to be preserved because it was the natural order and it was best for the entire nation. For everyone. For the slaves and the slave owners. How the reality of being in debt buying the slaves to banks was the real problem. How banks were the real evil ones who wanted to charge them interest rates on lending the plantation owners for seed, tools, animals and slaves.....and that they wanted to change the rules again....so they could profit from the misery of the plantation owners.

If they just could get slaves without interest from the banks? Everything would improve.

They discussed how banks viewed wage employment versus slave owners obligations.

Capitalism is a system that destroyed the feudal systems of labor that were based on humans being property.

Capitalists like O'Leary believe like those old slave owners? Don't try to change to some system where human beings stop being property....to some wages...because the truth is? Socialism is not freedom. It is slavery. It is the government regulation and the government controlling, etc.

Workers should never compete for control of their own labor. Don't let them have the upper hand. It is against human nature.

You read enough and study enough human history B0ycey? You realize the self serving people in comfortable positions always will argue for immorality. Because that is the heart of their wealth.

You would think one would know the kind of tap dance these people do? But many people never do the work of seeing patterns in human history. They are bored by that. It is not boring. It is a study in human psychological patterns.

It is worth a lot of time. If you want justice over many hundreds of years.
#15049595
late wrote:That's what the clowns said when Clinton raised taxes. Didn't happen.

You see economics as a religion. You won't admit it, but there it is.

In addition, it's the Classic Comics version of economics.

"Stiglitz blames rent-seeking for causing the inequality, with the wealthy using their power to shape monopolies, incur favorable treatment by the government, and pay low taxes. The end result is not only morally wrong but also hurts the productivity in the economy...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Price_of_Inequality

"Thus, a major thrust of modern economics is to understand the role of institutions in creating and shaping markets. The question then is: what is the relative role and importance of these alternative hypotheses? There is no easy way of providing a neat quantitative answer, but recent events and studies have lent persuasive weight to theories putting greater focus on rent-seeking and exploitation..."

"So overall wealth increases, but this does not lead to an increase in the productive capacity of the economy or in the mean marginal productivity or average wage of workers. On the contrary, wages may stagnate or even decrease, because the rise in the share of rents has happened at the expense of wages."
https://evonomics.com/joseph-stiglitz-i ... ed-income/


This is the most prosperous time in world history and you can thank capitalism for that. World poverty will likely be eradicated before 2050.
#15049596
Julian658 wrote:An intellectual midget generally attacks instead of having a dialogue. She reminds me of Trump.


Lol. :lol: I don't want any dialogue with you. You admitted freely that you don't read what other people write. Once you did that you lost all credibility.

Steve is trying to figure out why you did not draw a logical conclusion about what was posted to answer your writings?

@B0ycey is writing elementary lines like what he mentioned about salaries to you because he is thinking....ok, the guy is saying this but the answer to that is something most people already know....? Let me reiterate and see if it is a problem about understanding.

I don't want to dialogue with you at all Julian. But if you can learn from other people who have the patience to educate your lazy self? I have no beef with you.

You can call me any names you like. I don't care. I never respected people who don't want to read and want to be right. I try to teach my children, "No, the most important thing in school is not to be the smartest one, but to be the one putting forth the greatest efforts."

Adults that don't do minimal efforts get nothing from me. They were supposed to learn to do a lot of things by this stage in life. If they have not gotten there? It is because they chose it.

Lol.
#15049599
Julian658 wrote:This is the most prosperous time in world history and you can thank capitalism for that. World poverty will likely be eradicated before 2050.


World poverty eradicated by 2050??! Have you got a link for that assumption?

Rich nations profit from exploiting poor nations. When I read similar posts like this that everyone is a winner under capitalism it is because they person lives in a rich nation and they only look out their window when thinking that. You want to see the true losers in Capitalism, visit a sweatshop in the Far East rather than the foodbanks of America. Capitalism isn't a zero sum game. For their to be profit there must be debt. In other words for there to be wealth someone else is in debt of it. How much debt do you think the system can hold back before it snaps? 2008 was a wakeup call but QE can't be the solution everytime. Eventually it will buckle and Capitalism will collapse for it is a contradiction.
#15049602
Julian658 wrote:Nope, the billionaires will leave the country and the IRS will lose the tax revenue. Happens everyday.


Well the billionaires are embezzling their wealth out of the country today whilst staying here to save on tax, but this thread is specifically about income tax (UK residents here)/income bracket. That is a tax on your salary. The job remains here unless the CEOs also plan on relocating the factory as well. But they need shareholder approval then. In other words increase the threshold and they pissed off because of it, someone else will do the job instead. Get it?

Profit without working for it!! It seems you give more importance to manual labor than creativity and ingenuity.


Two different aspects of the same coin. I have no issue with R+D and is equally as important as construction when making a product. The problem is you give one skill more importance as the other when you will find both jobs are required in order for the thing to be made. There is no weak link. However if you remove a link it no longer works as a chain.

As for the inheritance of wealth. I will be happy to abolish inheritance, but you will not accomplish anything. Humans align themselves according to talent. If you strip Bill gates of all his money, he will find a way to make a fortune again.


Good. I like drive in people. However I would like to think even Gates recognises that without his workforce to make his product he is nothing. And I expect he pays them well for their talent. So why does the Trumps of the world think that menial work doesn't deserve a living salary?
#15049604
B0ycey wrote:
Two different aspects of the same coin. I have no issue with R+D and is equally as important as construction when making a product. The problem is you give one skill more importance as the other when you will find both jobs are required in order for the thing to be made. There is no weak link. However if you remove a link it no longer works as a chain.


R and D is not the same as the grunt pushing an electric screw driver in the assembly line. The creative genius of the Rand D person may be one in a million. One creative mind is worth a million grunts pushing the electric screw driver. Humanity needs talent at the top since most people are average.

Good. I like drive in people. However I would like to think even Gates recognises that without his workforce to make his product he is nothing. And I expect he pays them well for their talent. So why does the Trumps of the world think that menial work doesn't deserve a living salary?


For the love of God. People like Gates and Steve Jobs do not grow on trees. Jobs started in a car garage with Mr. Wozniak. what is the point in penalizing brilliant minds.

Why do you people think that wealth is a zero sum gain? Where do the posters get the idea that people like Bill gates makes money by stealing from the poor. Only Tainari woulds believe stuff like that! :knife: :knife: :knife:
#15049606
B0ycey wrote:World poverty eradicated by 2050??! Have you got a link for that assumption?

Rich nations profit from exploiting poor nations. When I read similar posts like this that everyone is a winner under capitalism it is because they person lives in a rich nation and they only look out their window when thinking that. You want to see the true losers in Capitalism, visit a sweatshop in the Far East rather than the foodbanks of America. Capitalism isn't a zero sum game. For their to be profit there must be debt. In other words for there to be wealth someone else is in debt of it. How much debt do you think the system can hold back before it snaps? 2008 was a wakeup call but QE can't be the solution everytime. Eventually it will buckle and Capitalism will collapse for it is a contradiction.


https://www.economist.com/sites/default ... FBC699.png

Google world poverty eradication. There are countless of articles. Of course you are blind to this because you are in an echo chamber.
#15049608
Rancid wrote:Rich people are an endangered species that must be protected.


Aw hell Rancid! Why do you have to make me laugh so much! Messing up my snack eating with that!

Rich people are an endangered species....

It is like looking for guayabas in November my man, an impossible thing. I walk around this neighborhood in Mexico and I need to do a survey and ask them "My Mexican people how many of you here are feeling that the poverty is going to be gone from your lives in 30 years? Where you don't owe any credit card debt to El Gran Chapur or Liverpool or Coppel Department stores?" and all of you can afford to run the air conditioners day and night and not worry about the light bill? because we got an American who knows the struggles you Mexicans go through everyday and the reason for your poverty is you all don't work hard enough....let me find out if any of you lazy Mexicans who live in a nation with no food stamps and no welfare payments and if you don't work you don't eat? Are some dumb people with no creativity...

Forget about Julio Mendoza there....who works three jobs and bicycles to work and back all the time. And who is super creative and sells original art in the Plaza on Sundays. No, he is not a true Bill Gates. He lacks the right stuff...and that is why he is poor.

Hell, Rancid, sometimes I think these people who don't even bother to read what other people take time to post for the benefit of a discussion? Why do they even bother coming in here?

If they want to talk by themselves? BLOG. Don't go into a debate.

One kid I used to teach? She was a 19 year old trying to get her high school diploma...she asked me why I was so tough on her because I said to her, "You got to read and read quickly because the GED is a timed test. So if you are not used to reading and comprehending what is asked of you? You need to set a goal of reading in incremental stages and time yourself til you can reach a two hour concentration limit. That way you are guaranteed to be able to pass the test because your speed increases with practice and the right methods on extrapolating information."

Her answer was, "No, that is too much work. I don't like reading. It makes my head hurt. I just want to pass the test fast so I can get paid lots of money. I don't care what they are saying. How I feel is the most important part of finishing high school."

The whole room erupted in laughter. She was upset. But I told her, "I can tell you right now...that if you don't work at all you won't get anywhere in life. Nowhere. Reading is a skill. You need to develop it. Writing is a skill and so is thinking critically. But if you resist doing that? No one in the world will do it for you. Do you want to go back to that fast food job and making nothing of money and having your baby suffer because you can't provide for her anymore?" She said no...and I said, "Then stop making excuses and make some efforts. No place in the entire world is going to be responsible for your choices. Only you!"

You got adults with that girl's mentality. At least she had the excuse of being 19 years old and trying to finish high school again.

Most of the people given second chances in life do well. Unfortunately the working people being exploited in many countries including Mexico never are given any chance. At all. They die in poverty. And left behind 60 years of enormous work efforts and nothing to show for it. Because their wages are really about $1 an hour. It is less than the PRC's wages and they have a lot higher expenses than in Chinese cities. It is exploitation. No one lives with illusions that it is not exploitation. Only the ones who never studied economics.

Stop making me laugh @Rancid ! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
#15049611
Julian658 wrote:R and D is not the same as the grunt pushing an electric screw driver in the assembly line. The creative genius of the Rand D person may be one in a million. One creative mind is worth a million grunts pushing the electric screw driver. Humanity needs talent at the top since most people are average.


Humanity needs labor regardless of the skill level. What use is a great idea if you cannot make it materialise alone? Do you think the worker ant is considered any less to the colony because there are more of them than the solider ant?

Humans are the only creature that considers skill levels or intelligence paramount than work ethic. All other social creature do not do that and still feed society as a whole just fine.

For the love of God. People like Gates and Steve Jobs do not grow on trees. Jobs started in a car garage with Mr. Wozniak. what is the point in penalizing brilliant minds.

Why do you people think that wealth is a zero sum gain? Where do the posters get the idea that people like Bill gates makes money by stealing from the poor. Only Tainari woulds believe stuff like that! :knife: :knife: :knife:


So what? When Gates or Jobs (deceased) can perform everything on their own, then they do not exploit the surplus labor of their employees and can enjoy the entire profit and deservedly so with a clear conscious. If they need others to execute profit then you have to question why more should be given to an idea then manual labor when both skills were required for the thing to be made and the possibility of profit to materialise.
#15049613
Julian658 wrote:https://www.economist.com/sites/default/files/images/print-edition/20130601_FBC699.png

Google world poverty eradication. There are countless of articles. Of course you are blind to this because you are in an echo chamber.


So won't be a problem for you to provide a link then. WTF is that gif without the context.
#15049614
Julian658 wrote:
This is the most prosperous time in world history and you can thank capitalism for that. World poverty will likely be eradicated before 2050.



The Modern World is a 3 legged affair. It's a cooperation between business, government and knowledge institutions.

You can't separate them.

Your underlying assumption is that we should leave the magic alone, and everything will be nice.

It doesn't work that way. When a country starts developing, the government typically has to get involved. You can look at the development of the English economy in the early 1800s, or ours in the late 1800s.

The involvement is extensive, and includes education. We built the Aggie colleges as part of our process, for example.
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