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By late
#15049809
BigSteve wrote:
How did I "insult" anyone; at least anyone...?



You'll figure it out, or you won't. If you can't, there is nothing I could say to change that. If you can, you will when you're ready.

This isn't my first impeachment rodeo.
User avatar
By BigSteve
#15049812
late wrote:You'll figure it out, or you won't. If you can't, there is nothing I could say to change that. If you can, you will when you're ready.

This isn't my first impeachment rodeo.


The fact that you're incapable of pointing it out is noted...
By late
#15049816
BigSteve wrote:
The fact that you're incapable of pointing it out is noted...



That usually what you don't get wrong intentionally, you get wrong unintentionally, need not be noted.
User avatar
By Ter
#15049817
You guys are so boring...
When I can't sleep I come here and then I feel sleepy in two minutes.
Maybe this is a good business model :)
User avatar
By blackjack21
#15049818
late wrote:The UCMJ requires a soldier to report problems. The problem has to meet certain criteria, and be reported to the relevant authority.

All of which Vindman did.

The CIA is not the relevant authority by any stretch of the imagination.

late wrote:It's why a few dozen Republicans have resigned, or lost their election. It's also why they will continue to lose. They can't be trusted.

Who? And that's a problem, because???

Atlantis wrote:Since you don't have anything to refute the facts, you, like @Hindsite, use character assassination tactics to discredit the witness. Vindman's only sin is to be the only person of integrity in a group of chronic liars. The GOP witnesses Morrison and Volker had to change their testimony because they lied before. But instead of telling the truth now, they lied again.

Testing the character of the witness is common in legal proceedings. Vindman doesn't come out completely clean in this. He has a history of bashing the United States, and also has curried enough favor with Ukraine to have received no less than three offers of the Ministry of Defense position--which sounds like he's more of an advocate for Ukraine than for the United States.

Atlantis wrote:After years on the Ukraine desk, Volker pretended not to understand that investigating Burisma meant investigating Biden.

It doesn't limit the scope of an investigation to Biden, and Biden is not off limits to any investigation either way.

Atlantis wrote:Morrison still couldn't explain why the transcript was hidden on a top secrete server, except to say that he wanted to prevent a public investigation into the issue.

Trump raised the security level on the transcripts because someone--whom everyone now believes to be Eric Ciaramella--kept leaking them to the press.

Atlantis wrote:Even though they were called to defend Trump, both implicated Trump by agreeing that to ask for an investigation of Biden was wrong,

They are foreign desk guys, not prosecutors. If Biden violated the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, asking for an investigation is absolutely appropriate. Their personal or legal opinions are immaterial.

Atlantis wrote:yet Morrison couldn't explain why he didn't think anything was wrong when Trump shredded his Ukraine policy

Morrison doesn't formulate foreign policy. Trump does.

Atlantis wrote:There is a mountain of evidence from numerous witnesses which all prove that Trump tried to extort dirt on Biden from a foreign leader, and all you can do is an unsubstantiated and mean-spirited attack on the only witness with integrity.

If they had any evidence of criminal wrongdoing, Ukraine had an obligation under treaty to provide it to the Department of Justice. "Dirt" isn't a meaningful term. Reasonable cause to believe wrongdoing might have occurred, and the evidence substantiating it is relevant.

Atlantis wrote:Whistle-blowers are guaranteed anonymity.

No they are not. They cannot be fired if their complaint complies with the whistleblower statute--which this one does not. It also appears that there was some machinations that changed the requirements on the IC's whistleblower form to deviate from the statute, which requires first hand knowledge rather than hearsay.

Atlantis wrote:Without that wrongdoing would not be reported. There is no need to know the name of the whistle-blower because most of what he said has been confirmed by the witnesses. The only purpose of making it public is to intimidate, which is a criminal offense.

Wrong doing gets reported without anonymity all the time. The reason they are trying to hide Ciaramella on the official transcript is that he can be identified as being in receipt of classified information he was not authorized to receive. Vindman was not authorized to share the information with Ciaramella, and Ciaramella was not authorized to receive it. In criminal cases, the Sixth Amendment grants all criminal defendants the right to confront their accuser. So if the House wants to impeach and refer the matter to the Senate, the Senate has already said that they will proceed under the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, which means the case is DOA.

Atlantis wrote:@Finfinder, @Hindsite, @BigSteve, @blackjack21 and other always Trumpers, do you think Sondland's reputation needs to be smeared? If you do, you should say so before today's hearing. If you base your character assassination campaign on whether he lies for Trump or not, you'll undermine your credibility.

I don't think any of it is relevant, because there is no criminal activity identified. The whole thing is a monumentally soporific time waster. The big buzz this morning is that Sondland will testify to a quid-pro-quo that Trump conditioned a meeting with Zelensky on whether or not he agreed to investigate Biden. That doesn't involve any financial activity whatsoever, so again there is no crime. I think a lot of talking heads think "quid pro quo" means something bad. It doesn't. If you go to a convenience store, get a coke out of the refer and give them $2 bucks for the coke, you have just engaged in a quid pro quo.

Atlantis wrote:@Finfinder, a non-president can't be impeached.

Wrong. All civil officers can be impeached. As a non-American, you sure are opinionated about American constitutional law.

Finfinder wrote:Nothing makes the liberals run and spin more than facts.

Or the desire to acquire more of other people's money. CBS has already pulled wall-to-wall coverage, because housewives prefer soap operas with some drama to the dead bore of the impeachment hearings.
By late
#15049819
blackjack21 wrote:
You dump 16 tons, and what do ya get,

another day older and deeper in debt.



Still fiction.. still no sources, and worst, still no interest in discussion that is relevant in this galaxy.

Do you really think that steaming pile would persuade anyone not already on the wrong side of the Universe??
User avatar
By Finfinder
#15049822
Ter wrote:You guys are so boring...
When I can't sleep I come here and then I feel sleepy in two minutes.
Maybe this is a good business model :)


just feeding the gaslighters
By late
#15049824
Finfinder wrote:
just feeding the gaslighters



" As a therapist in clinical practice, I’m trained to spot the signs and offer strategies to help people cope. Abusive relationships are extremely dangerous, and this is no exception. Donald Trump’s gaslighting has led the country into a spiral of doubt, anger and despair.

Gaslighting behavior has always been present in history, to a degree. It is par for the course whenever a person or entity wants to exert as much control as possible over others. But we haven’t seen this level of gaslighting since the Axis powers of World War II."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... 445050002/
By Atlantis
#15049839
Sondland: everybody in the loop (including Pompeo) knew about the quid pro quo: public announcement of the two investigations by Zelensky in exchange for military aid and an official visit to the white house.

Trump didn't even care about the investigation of corruption, he just wanted the public announcement by Zelensky to smear Biden. It can't get worse than that. This is a bombshell.
Last edited by Atlantis on 20 Nov 2019 16:45, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By jimjam
#15049841
Gordon D. Sondland, the Republican megadonor turned ambassador to the European Union, told the House Intelligence Committee on Wednesday that he and other advisers to President Trump pressured Ukraine to investigate Democrats “because the president directed us to do so.”

“Secretary Perry, Ambassador Volker and I worked with Mr. Rudy Giuliani on Ukraine matters at the express direction of the president of the United States,” Mr. Sondland told the committee. “We did not want to work with Mr. Giuliani. Simply put, we were playing the hand we were dealt.” With no alternative, he said, “we followed the president’s orders.”

This isn't a revelation, but it's nice to watch the Republicans squirm under the weight of public shame. But do not forget the most damning Republican defense ……………………………………. Lt. Col. Vindman wore his uniform to the hearing :eek: :lol:
By late
#15049843
In addition, Vindman has been assigned a security detail because of the potential for Right wing terrorist violence against him, and his family.

To give you an idea of how seriously they are taking this, they are trying to persuade him to move into the base for a while.

Reminds me of that old dance, Limbo. How low can you go?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKBN1XT2F3
User avatar
By blackjack21
#15049863
late wrote:Still fiction.. still no sources, and worst, still no interest in discussion that is relevant in this galaxy.

Do you really think that steaming pile would persuade anyone not already on the wrong side of the Universe??

Fiction is what you quoted me as saying, when I clearly didn't say it. I suppose you think that's funny or something. By the way, I'm not deeply in debt.

I think anyone who thinks wrong doing has taken place and wants to report it generally goes to their direct superior, files a whistleblower complaint, or goes directly to law enforcement. They don't generally call someone they know in the CIA. After all, the CIA is not a law enforcement agency.

Atlantis wrote:Sondland: everybody in the loop (including Pompeo) knew about the quid pro quo: public announcement of the two investigations by Zelensky in exchange for military aid and an official visit to the white house.

Trump didn't even care about the investigation of corruption, he just wanted the public announcement by Zelensky to smear Biden. It can't get worse than that. This is a bombshell.

The word "bombshell" has become cliché at this point, generally meaning hype followed by disappointment.

Sondland testified that Trump didn't tell him directly--so once again, he has reiterated a layer of indirection. He also testified that he didn't tell Zelenksy directly about a quid pro quo. Furthermore, his testimony today is inconsistent with his prior testimony. So something he's saying is false. Sondland previously testified that he merely presumed a quid pro quo. He also previously testified that Trump told him directly that there was no quid pro quo. So it sounds like Sondland has lied under oath at some point. He cannot be construed to be a credible witness now.

jimjam wrote:Gordon D. Sondland, the Republican megadonor turned ambassador to the European Union, told the House Intelligence Committee on Wednesday that he and other advisers to President Trump pressured Ukraine to investigate Democrats “because the president directed us to do so.”

Trump never requested anyone to "investigate Democrats." Sondland already testified before that Trump had told him "no quid pro quo," so he must be lying somewhere in his testimony. At any rate, investigating potential criminal wrongdoing by Democrats is not illegal by any stretch of the imagination.

jimjam wrote:“Secretary Perry, Ambassador Volker and I worked with Mr. Rudy Giuliani on Ukraine matters at the express direction of the president of the United States,” Mr. Sondland told the committee. “We did not want to work with Mr. Giuliani. Simply put, we were playing the hand we were dealt.” With no alternative, he said, “we followed the president’s orders.”

The orders to work with Giuliani, that is. :roll:

late wrote:In addition, Vindman has been assigned a security detail because of the potential for Right wing terrorist violence against him, and his family.

Maybe he can apply to Ukraine for asylum. :roll:

At any rate, I'm not seeing a significant market reaction.
User avatar
By Finfinder
#15049866
In February /March of this year Ukraine officials already re-opened the investigation in Burisma and the Bidens why did none of these so called expert witnesses on Ukraine tell the president this occurred?


blackjack21 wrote:

The word "bombshell" has become cliché at this point, generally meaning hype followed by disappointment.
.


I belive the bombshell is this direct quote from the hearing

"Mr. Sondland, let's be clear: no one on this planet—not Donald Trump, Rudy Guiliani, Mick Mulvaney, Mike Pompeo—no one told you aid was tied to political investigations, is that correct."

Gordon Sondland: "That's correct."


that one leaves a mark
User avatar
By Stormsmith
#15049874
I wonder if Rudy Giuliani has bull dozer tracks on his back yet .

Nunes' ongoing search for the whistleblower makes me think he wants to pin the blame for this whole sorry mess on this guy/ess. It also make me think he has rejected or fails to understand that the idea is that by law, whistleblowers get protection. This guy's (Nunes) as thick as two short 6x6's stuck together with thicky-thicko glue.



Atlantis wrote:I bet that he's the type of guy who'll take embarrassment over prison any time of the day, or night.

T
As they say, 'The proof of the pudding is in the eating'. Well, Sondman served said pudding. He's willing to send them all to the big house.


@FriendFinfinder

Remember I said things were going to explode soon (or words to that effect). I think we should don our hip waders about now. Hold tight!
User avatar
By Finfinder
#15049875
Stormsmith wrote:I wonder if Rudy Giuliani has bull dozer tracks on his back yet .

Nunes' ongoing search for the whistleblower makes me think he wants to pin the blame for this whole sorry mess on this guy/ess. It also make me think he has rejected or fails to understand that the idea is that by law, whistleblowers get protection. This guy's (Nunes) as thick as two short 6x6's stuck together with thicky-thicko glue.




T
As they say, 'The proof of the pudding is in the eating'. Well, Sondman served said pudding. He's willing to send them all to the big house.


@FriendFinfinder

Remember I said things were going to explode soon (or words to that effect). I think we should don our hip waders about now. Hold tight!



true watch this short video

User avatar
By Tainari88
#15049878
Vindman is a patriot. He is a man who loves the USA. You need to love this dude....HEE HEE HEE:
User avatar
By blackjack21
#15049883
Stormsmith wrote:It also make me think he has rejected or fails to understand that the idea is that by law, whistleblowers get protection.

There is no whistleblower law for publicly elected officials. The IC whistleblower law is for things that happen within the intelligence community, not what your buddy over at the White House told you happened on a call.

Stormsmith wrote:Remember I said things were going to explode soon (or words to that effect). I think we should don our hip waders about now. Hold tight!

Yes. You and your ilk have been saying the same thing for three years now. If only you would adopt the fashion you'd like the rest of us to adopt...

Tainari88 wrote:Vindman is a patriot. He is a man who loves the USA.

He's directly opposing investigating Ukraine's interference into the 2016 election. That's obstruction of justice.
By Atlantis
#15049884
blackjack21 wrote:Sondland previously testified that he merely presumed a quid pro quo.


Sondland clearly stated that there was a "quid pro quo" and that everybody in the loop knew about it. The quid pro quo Sondland (with Volker, Morrison, Guiliani, et. al.) were actually working on for months was:

Public announcement of an investigations into Burisma (ie. Bidens)/2016 in exchange for a White House meeting and military aid

There is no doubt about it. All witnesses corroborated this and Trump made it clear that "investigating Burisma" means "investigating the Bidens." That is absolutely clear from the July 25th phone call between Trump and Zelensky.

He also previously testified that Trump told him directly that there was no quid pro quo. So it sounds like Sondland has lied under oath at some point. He cannot be construed to be a credible witness now.


No that is false. Sondland testified today that Trump had told him on the phone that there was no quid pro quo the day after Congress started to investigate the whistle blower's complaint. Why would Trump use exactly that expression: "quid pro quo"? It's not Trump's habit to use Latin. He used exactly this expression because he quoted it directly from the accusation made against him the day before. Trump lies when he opens his mouth. He says whatever seems most convenient to him at a given moment. The context shows why he lied using exactly these words.

I was very much impressed by Sondland. The moment he agreed to testify, the Trumpists started to violently attack him and to send him and his family threats. A Republican congressman called for a boycott of Sondland's businesses and to pester customers trying to enter his hotels. His family escaped the holocaust. The Republicans will be for every shamed for subjecting Sondland's family to terror and discrimination reminiscent of the terror used by the Nazis to intimidate the Jews during the Kristallnacht. Shame on you!

Maybe he can apply to Ukraine for asylum.


You know what they say, right? First it's the Jews, then ... and in the end it's you. Trump is turning the US into a fascist state. I know plenty of Americans who have fled to Europe because they cannot live in Trumpistan.
User avatar
By jimjam
#15049886
blackjack21 wrote:He's directly opposing investigating Ukraine's interference into the 2016 election. That's obstruction of justice.

Oh, be real …… that's obstruction of Donald not obstruction of justice. God forbid the day when kissing Fatso's ass is equated with justice.
User avatar
By blackjack21
#15049889
Atlantis wrote:Sondland clearly stated that there was a "quid pro quo" and that everybody in the loop knew about it.

When cross examined, it became clear that he presumed there was a quid pro quo (not that it would be criminal anyway), and that nobody on THE ENTIRE PLANET told him there was a quid pro quo. It was purely a figment of his imagination, and so was the notion that everyone else thought the same thing. How many times does it have to be pointed out that you don't get to testify as to what someone else was thinking? It's pure speculation.

Atlantis wrote:There is no doubt about it.

There is no doubt that Sondland believed that this was the case even though absolutely nobody told him that was the case.

Atlantis wrote:The moment he agreed to testify, the Trumpists started to violently attack him ...

As far as I know, he hasn't been violently attacked by anyone.

Atlantis wrote:His family escaped the holocaust.

Lucky for them. What does it have to do with this?

Atlantis wrote:The Republicans will be for every shamed for subjecting Sondland's family to terror and discrimination reminiscent of the terror used by the Nazis to intimidate the Jews during the Kristallnacht.

Can you identify even one broken window tied to Sondland's testimony? :roll: Time to switch to decaf buddy.

Atlantis wrote:First it's the Jews, then ... and in the end it's you.

Uh huh. So since I'm not a Jew, I don't have to be worried for quite awhile it seems.

Atlantis wrote:Trump is turning the US into a fascist state.

Uh huh. How many fascist states recognize Jerusalem as the capitol of Israel?

Atlantis wrote:I know plenty of Americans who have fled to Europe because they cannot live in Trumpistan.

Cool. Europe isn't a country. Have they gone to a particular country? Or just "Europe"?
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