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#15049823
If anyone wants to dig a little deeper than the usually disingenuous vacuousness, I can warmly suggest Waldman's book, The Second Amendment, a biography.

Does a nice job of placing it in it's historical context, and how the courts have handled this over the centuries.

But I can give you the 25 or less version: It's not relevant anymore.

https://www.amazon.com/Second-Amendment-Biography-Michael-Waldman/dp/1476747458/ref=sr_1_1?crid=372I7GBF5UUBG&keywords=the+second+amendment+a+biography&qid=1574262810&sprefix=the+second+amendment+%2Caps%2C146&sr=8-1
#15049825
Drlee wrote:No it is not a symptom. It is the means to do it infinitely more efficiently than with a club. :roll:


I can end someone's life with the single swing of a $30 baseball bat.

That's pretty fuckin' efficient...

You have no constitutionally protected right to own a gun without training. The SCOTUS has already decided that with the registration laws. The government has the right to regulate what you might own and the conditions under which you may own it.


If that were actually true, my guns would be registered...

Why not? You have to pay money to exercise just about all of your rights. In this case the very act of obtaining a gun requires that you pay money.


How much do you pay to belch up your nonsense here?

What rights do you pay for?

That is just about as ignorant a statement as I have ever heard on POFO.


You should read your own musings some time...

No. This is even more ignorant. Two winners in one post. WTG.


More inconvenient for you than ignorant, simply because you can't argue the point...

And you just decided to make that lie up. Do not play us for fools. Here is a quote from Baiting Hallow Boy Scout Camp's website schedule under special events:

Maybe the "libs" bought all the tickets. :moron:


The "moron" emoji suits you, considering the fact that I never stated they didn't still use firearms at Baiting Hollow. What I said was that the NRA stopped providing free safety course to the Scouts because some liberal dipshit who thought it taught violence.

If they've started doing that again I'm unaware of it...

"Requiring a license to drive?"

Placing very specific laws about what you can drive, where, how fast, what safety equipment, on what roads, how those roads should be constructed, and by which of dozens of local, state and federal agencies and law enforcement people these rules are enforced?


You have no Constitutional right to drive, so I have no issue with rules, laws and regulations...

Very good example. (Assuming your statistics are true and not understating the problem.) And that is why in my bright red state, for example, one has to be training how to drive which includes learning why it is unsafe to text and drive. We have severe fines for violating this law. Teen passengers are taught not to allow the drivers to text and drive. Parents can install aps on their children's cell phones that turn them off when the kids are driving. And there is more.


Again, that's not something you have a Constitutional right to. Apples and oranges...

Well BigSteve. When you are not just making shit up to suit your argument you are very good at making the argument for the other side.


Not at all. I don't make shit up. I just provide clear information that you're incapable of refuting...

It may be because I am a Mensa member and therefor omniscient but I tend to look out for potholes and even if I am careless and hit one I remember where the pot hole is and do not hit it again. Then I call my local authorities and whine until they fix it because I do not want someone to get hurt hitting the aforementioned pothole. Come to think of it even some of my non Mensa friends do just this same thing. What do you think that means?


Mensa?

ROFLMMFAO!!

You know, for someone who gives others shit for bloviating, you sure do your fair share of it.

"Mensa"... That's fucking funny. I don't believe it for a second...
User avatar
By ingliz
#15049827
BigSteve wrote:I can end someone's life with the single swing of a $30 baseball bat.

I can end your life with one well placed blow and a key. At one time I would have managed the deed easily enough with my bare hands but being old and knackered I am not what I used to be.


:lol:
Last edited by ingliz on 20 Nov 2019 18:38, edited 4 times in total.
#15049828
BigSteve wrote:
I can end someone's life with the single swing of a $30 baseball bat.



"On the night of October 1, 2017, a shooter opened fire on a crowd of concertgoers at the Route 91 Harvest music festival on the Las Vegas Strip in Nevada. He killed 58 people and wounded 413, with the ensuing panic bringing the injury total to 869."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting
#15049842
You have no Constitutional right to drive, so I have no issue with rules, laws and regulations...


Actually this is not true. You probably do have a constitutional right to a drivers license. This shows just how little you know about the constitution. I suggest you study it before you say stupid shit like this again.

BS's arguments are typical of those on his side. They are shallow as can be. He asserts stuff that is simply not true and so obviously so that the rest of us are left to either defend the obvious or restate our already carefully made arguments. (Including those with evidence he insists on ignoring.)

I believe this is, in part, why the far right in the US has become such an annoyance to thinking people. They have been played like a cheap guitar. The republican party (which could not care less about gun control and helped pass the Brady bill in fact) actually had found that they can manipulate the Bubbas to vote their way by claiming that "the lib'rals are gonn' git your guns". So they sold out to the NRA and these few mental midgets in exchange for their money and votes. And they did this in the face of the fact that the overwhelming majority of Americans believe in gun registration for all gun sales and background investigations for all gun sales. But those idiotic Bubbas....

What do Americans really think?

83% favor background checks for ALL gun sales, private, gun show and commercial.

72% favor NATIONAL red flag laws.

72% favor requiring a license for ALL gun purchases.

61% favor banning all high capacity magazines.

and forget assault weapons...

57% favor a ban on all semi-automatic weapons.

So the second amendment types can claim that they have sufficient politicians behind them to block the will of the people but they cannot assert that they are representing the majority of Americans. Not by a long shot.
#15049846
BigSteve wrote:1. Three weeks is way too long; just ridiculous.

2. And I would love to know how anyone's "right to life" is threatened by another person buying a gun. If someone wants to kill someone, the gun is just a symptom of a larger problem that should be addressed.

3. And where would someone obtain a "certificate of training"? Will there be a cost for that training? Will the government pay for that training? After all, we're still talking about a Constitutionally protected right.

4. A person shouldn't have to pay money to exercise his rights. Let's start charging libs for exercising their 1st Amendment rights if they post stupid their idiocy on the internet. Let's charge someone if they don't want to let the police search their car during a traffic stop. Those are Constitutional rights, too...


1. I'm making allowances , and said it's review able

2. It isn't but it is When you're in possession of the gun

3. My brother taught a course for kids for 20 years. The focus was on safety, maintenence etc. It evolved into a social club. Some one suggested the NRA could get involved. Give it some thought. What would be suitable for your grandaughteRs to operate a gun.

4. I'm sure you are familiar with pay to play concept. I hope you don't expect us to pay for your guns and ammo, too.
#15049850
BigSteve wrote:Serious question. Why are we so damned and determined to put all of these restrictions on a Constitutionally protected right, but we do little to make safer those things which aren't Constitutionally protected?


You're right to think the world has a lot of issues we need to improve, but the question at hand is school shootings. In my experience mixing apple and oranges usually leads to another unsatisfying fruity word salad.


Drlee wrote:BS's arguments are typical of those on his side. They are shallow as can be. He asserts stuff that is simply not true and so obviously so that the rest of us are left to either defend the obvious or restate our already carefully made arguments. (Including those with evidence he insists on ignoring.)

I believe this is, in part, why the far right in the US has become such an annoyance to thinking people. They have been played like a cheap guitar. The republican party (which could not care less about gun control and helped pass the Brady bill in fact) actually had found that they can manipulate the Bubbas to vote their way by claiming that "the lib'rals are gonn' git your guns". So they sold out to the NRA and these few mental midgets in exchange for their money and votes. And they did this in the face of the fact that the overwhelming majority of Americans believe in gun registration for all gun sales and background investigations for all gun sales. But those idiotic Bubbas....

What do Americans really think?

83% favor background checks for ALL gun sales, private, gun show and commercial.

72% favor NATIONAL red flag laws.

72% favor requiring a license for ALL gun purchases.

61% favor banning all high capacity magazines.

and forget assault weapons...

57% favor a ban on all semi-automatic weapons.

So the second amendment types can claim that they have sufficient politicians behind them to block the will of the people but they cannot assert that they are representing the majority of Americans. Not by a long shot.


This suggests to me the greater issue is back to politics. Why won't Moscow Mitch put a bill on gun safety up to debate in the senate? Because the NRA has the good senator by his naughty bits. If, by your evidence, there is a demand for legislation, and he refuses to do his job, stop paying him by whatever means you can. There are few countries in the world that exceed your level of gun violence. That's why those with lower levels of gun violence emphasise safety legeslation. You're going to have a devil of a time cleaning up this mess, but for the sake of future generations, I hope some of the more ardent gun rights enthusiasts will put the rights of other before inconveniences to themselves. And maybe looking at your mental health legislation would be helpful.

Afterthought

As we know, COLT has decided to cease sales of AR-15's for public consumption: Colt Says Its Decision to Stop Making AR-15 Rifles for Civilians Is Driven by Customers. Experts Aren't So Sure https://time.com/5681534/colt-suspends-ar-15-rifle-production-civilians/

Several stores aren't carrying guns and/or spuppies for guns anymore, eg Walmart.

This suggests an opportunity to encourage change. Maybe picket Moscow Mitch's home and DC offices. Take on pickets duty on weekly shifts. Threaten work to rule strikes. Be visible and eyecatching! Oh man, it could turn into an e-vent! 8)
#15049919
Stormsmith wrote:4. I'm sure you are familiar with pay to play concept. I hope you don't expect us to pay for your guns and ammo, too.


Of course.

But requiring someone to pay a fee so they can get mandatory training is wrong. If the government wants to require it, the government can pick up the tab.

And I hardly need someone to buy my own guns and ammunition...
#15049920
Drlee wrote:Actually this is not true. You probably do have a constitutional right to a drivers license. This shows just how little you know about the constitution. I suggest you study it before you say stupid shit like this again.


Talk about "stupid shit". Says the alleged mensa guy: "You probably have a Constitutional right to a driver's license."

No, you don't..

BS's arguments are typical of those on his side. They are shallow as can be. He asserts stuff that is simply not true and so obviously so that the rest of us are left to either defend the obvious or restate our already carefully made arguments. (Including those with evidence he insists on ignoring.)

I believe this is, in part, why the far right in the US has become such an annoyance to thinking people. They have been played like a cheap guitar. The republican party (which could not care less about gun control and helped pass the Brady bill in fact) actually had found that they can manipulate the Bubbas to vote their way by claiming that "the lib'rals are gonn' git your guns". So they sold out to the NRA and these few mental midgets in exchange for their money and votes. And they did this in the face of the fact that the overwhelming majority of Americans believe in gun registration for all gun sales and background investigations for all gun sales. But those idiotic Bubbas....


I'm hardly "far right" and, if you think I am, you need to forfeit your mensa card and stop doing the secret handshake...

What do Americans really think?

83% favor background checks for ALL gun sales, private, gun show and commercial.

72% favor NATIONAL red flag laws.

72% favor requiring a license for ALL gun purchases.

61% favor banning all high capacity magazines.

and forget assault weapons...

57% favor a ban on all semi-automatic weapons.


If you're going to quote statistics, cite your source...

So the second amendment types can claim that they have sufficient politicians behind them to block the will of the people but they cannot assert that they are representing the majority of Americans. Not by a long shot.


So, you're against the 2nd Amendment?

Yeah, I knew I had you pegged...
#15049921
Stormsmith wrote:You're right to think the world has a lot of issues we need to improve, but the question at hand is school shootings.


My apologies.

Given Drlee's feigned outrage at another shooting, it seemed as though we weren't discussing that seriously...
#15049923
Wanting good gun controls is not against the 2nd Amendment. Limiting what firearms people have access to is also not contrary to the 2nd Amendment.

Cars are not guns. Stop trying to conflate the two. It's an inherently dishonest comparison. The licensing, laws, and regulations separating the two are vast. They are also tools even remotely similar to each other.

Where I am, and what access I have to guns(I can own one if I wish), is irrelevant to the conversation and how long the waiting time might be to get a new gun.

@BigSteve You being mildly offended by me seeing that waiting a few weeks for your first gun is fine, is about feelings, not facts. After that that first background check, I am sure it could reduced be down to a few minutes, with a check on a computer.

A public opinion trend that matters: Priorities for gun policy
Image
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2 ... un-policy/
#15049926
But requiring someone to pay a fee so they can get mandatory training is wrong. If the government wants to require it, the government can pick up the tab.


Typical big spending fake conservative. Tell me genius. Who pays when the government pays?

:roll:
Talk about "stupid shit". Says the alleged mensa guy: "You probably have a Constitutional right to a driver's license."

No, you don't.
.

Please note that I said "probably".

Let me take you to school since you obviously never took a class in constitutional law.

We have a CONSTITUTIONAL amendment called the Equal Protection Clause. It is part of the 14th Amendment. It says :

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


So this means that since the state licenses individuals to drive it must show good cause why "I" should be denied a drivers license. If I meet the qualifications of the law, and have done nothing to disqualify myself, and the state licenses others to drive using these same qualifications, it would be a violation of my constitutional rights to deny me the license. So in effect I do have a right to a driver's license provided I am qualified. The most simple example is that a state may deny a black student admission to the university if they are not qualified but not because they are black. Or left-handed. Or a conservative.....

Driving is often referred to as a privilege. It is. But. Denying that privilege equally is a violation of the US constitution.

You see young man that as much as you like to insult people and believe you are a smart and tough guy, you really ought to be careful. When someone asserts as absolute fact something that they really have no clue about they run the risk of looking like an ignorant, arrogant dumb shit. You would not want that to happen son.

So, you're against the 2nd Amendment?


Cut the shit. I have already proved I am not. Or are you smart enough to actually understand what I am writing. Is that the problem? Do you want me to use simpler language? Everyone else here can understand.
#15049928
Godstud wrote:Cars are not guns.


Well, that's just fucking brilliant...

Stop trying to conflate the two. It's an inherently dishonest comparison. The licensing, laws, and regulations separating the two are vast. They are also tools even remotely similar to each other.


And, yet, people die every day because of their misuse. There's not a single reason not to discuss both...

Where I am, and what access I have to guns(I can own one if I wish), is irrelevant to the conversation and how long the waiting time might be to get a new gun.


I read today that, in Thailand, it's illegal to own ammunition if you don't also own a gun that uses that ammunition. If you only own a 9mm it's illegal for you to own a .22 bullet.

And you think our gun laws are fucked?
#15049929
Drlee wrote:Typical big spending fake conservative. Tell me genius. Who pays when the government pays?


Why should someone have to pay money in order to exercise a Constitutional right?

Hell, if the government charged you a nickel for every bullshit laden post of yours, you'd clean out half the national debt...

Cut the shit. I have already proved I am not. Or are you smart enough to actually understand what I am writing. Is that the problem? Do you want me to use simpler language? Everyone else here can understand.


You're talking in circles. In one post you lambaste "2nd Amendment types" and then, in another, you claim to be one.

And you expect anyone to believe you're a member of mensa??

You should do stand-up, because that's some funny shit right there...
#15049930
Why should someone have to pay money in order to exercise a Constitutional right?


You already do. It is a moot point. Again. You said registration is fine with you. I'll ask again...Who pays for the registration or the people to do the background checks? Try harder. This is not that hard.

Hell, if the government charged you a nickel for every bullshit laden post of yours, you'd clean out half the national debt...


Are you 12? It sounds like it. But then you would not be old enough to post here. Must be something else.

Thank you for not admitting your were wrong about driver's licenses.

By the way. There are actually a couple of people here who know I am a member of Mensa. I have posted from the AG before. We have had a couple of threads about it. It is not a big deal. Over 6 million people in the US are eligible for membership. But it is useful to trigger insecure people, isn't it? Oh yea. Just because it gets up your nose so easily, I am also a member of Intertel. And the FOE. And American Legion. And......Oh yea...the symphony, a bunch of museums, AARP and......work on those bones for awhile. I am finding it oddly amusing.
#15049947
BigSteve wrote:Well, that's just fucking brilliant...
Yes. I am glad you can differentiate between two completely different things.

Car= transportation device.
Gun = killing device.

BigSteve wrote:And yet, people die every day because of their misuse. There's not a single reason not to discuss both...
Comparing two different tools used for very different reasons, both regulated differently, with different laws, licensing enforcement and regulations, is indeed a reason not to discuss them both.

You might as well be comparing cancer deaths to deaths from falling down in the bath-tub.

BigSteve wrote:I read today that, in Thailand, it's illegal to own ammunition if you don't also own a gun that uses that ammunition. If you only own a 9mm it's illegal for you to own a .22 bullet.
You read wrong.

Possession of ammunition for use with a gun other than one which you have obtained a license for owning and/or using is prohibited.

eg. You can't buy 7.62mm ammo if you do not have a weapon which can fire it.

They don't want you purchasing ammunition for someone else, I suppose. What's wrong with that? This also prevents some people from setting up shop, selling ammunition. Thais love to open up private businesses, and little regulation is in place for said businesses.
#15049985
Godstud wrote:Yes. I am glad you can differentiate between two completely different things.

Car= transportation device.
Gun = killing device.

Comparing two different tools used for very different reasons, both regulated differently, with different laws, licensing enforcement and regulations, is indeed a reason not to discuss them both.


I'm a big picture kinda' guy.

If there's a problem and people end up dying as a result, I say we take a look at it.

You say guns are made for killing. Okay, I can accept that.

According to the CDC, in 2017, roughly 39,800 people were killed by firearms in the United States. This number includes murders, suicides, accidental shootings, police involved shootings and instances where the circumstances couldn't be determined.

The National Safety Council estimates that in 2017, some 40,100 people were killed in automobile accidents in the United States.

So, in the instance of guns, you've got 40,00 people killed because the "killing device" is used as designed. The automobile, though; this "transportation device" you speak of, which isn't designed to kill people, in fact kills more people than guns.

Why not address that problem?

You read wrong.


No, I didn't...

Possession of ammunition for use with a gun other than one which you have obtained a license for owning and/or using is prohibited.

eg. You can't buy 7.62mm ammo if you do not have a weapon which can fire it.


It's clear. If you have a 9mm pistol and a box of .38 shells, you're in violation of Thai law regardless of how you got the box of .38 shells.

Do you dispute that?

They don't want you purchasing ammunition for someone else, I suppose. What's wrong with that? This also prevents some people from setting up shop, selling ammunition. Thais love to open up private businesses, and little regulation is in place for said businesses.


Well, unlike you, I don't really give a fuck what the laws are in someone else's country. I was just pointing out the absurdity of your own laws in light of the fact that you're so overtly critical of ours...
#15049986
Drlee wrote:You already do. It is a moot point. Again. You said registration is fine with you.


I've never said registration is fine with me...

I'll ask again...Who pays for the registration or the people to do the background checks?


With regards to someone exercising a Constitutional right, anything required by the State should be paid for by the State...

By the way. There are actually a couple of people here who know I am a member of Mensa. I have posted from the AG before. We have had a couple of threads about it. It is not a big deal. Over 6 million people in the US are eligible for membership. But it is useful to trigger insecure people, isn't it? Oh yea. Just because it gets up your nose so easily, I am also a member of Intertel. And the FOE. And American Legion. And......Oh yea...the symphony, a bunch of museums, AARP and......work on those bones for awhile. I am finding it oddly amusing.


Interesting that you feel you need to list your resume, as if anyone might actually care.

I used to be stationed with a guy who really was a member of mensa. As smart as he was he was a fuckin' idiot...
#15049987
BigSteve wrote:According to the CDC, in 2017, roughly 39,800 people were killed by firearms in the United States. This number includes murders, suicides, accidental shootings, police involved shootings and instances where the circumstances couldn't be determined.

The National Safety Council estimates that in 2017, some 40,100 people were killed in automobile accidents in the United States.

So, in the instance of guns, you've got 40,00 people killed because the "killing device" is used as designed. The automobile, though; this "transportation device" you speak of, which isn't designed to kill people, in fact kills more people than guns.

Why not address that problem?

Accurately Comparing Death Rates from Motor Vehicle and Firearm Use
Vehicles:
Number of registered motor vehicles in U.S. (cars, trucks, and buses): 300 million

Total number of miles driven in U. S. per year: approximately 3 trillion

Number of vehicular homicides annually: 300
Number of suicides committed with cars annually: approximately 20,000 (mostly through carbon monoxide poisoning)

Number of accidental vehicle deaths annually: approximately 30,000

Total number of annual deaths involving the use of motor vehicles: approximately 50,000

Deaths per mile of motor vehicle travel- 1 per 60 million (60,000,000)

Firearms:
Number of privately owned firearms in U.S: 270 million

Number of rounds fired per year: 12-15 billion

Number of homicides committed annually with firearms: approximately 11,000

Number of suicides committed annually with firearms: approximately 20,000

Number of deaths caused annually by accidental gun discharge: 500-1000

Total number of annual deaths involving the use of firearms: approximately 32,000

Deaths per round fired- 1 per 475 thousand (475,000)

Guns are far more dangerous to use than cars- by several orders of magnitude.They’re also far more dangerous to use than hands, feet, clubs, knives, hammers, or blunt objects, all of which are used many trillions of times a year to do all sorts of things, the least frequent of which is to kill people.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2013/2 ... irearm-Use

You are trying to compare completely different things made for completely different purposes and only looking at whether or not people die.

Motor vehicles are far more controlled than guns. That's a fact you really don't like to acknowledge.

Why aren't you arguing death by preventable disease vs gun deaths, or medical malpractice vs gun deaths? It's just as relevant.
#15049989
Godstud wrote:You are trying to compare completely different things made for completely different purposes and only looking at whether or not people die.


You don't find it alarming that something designed for transportation kills more people than something which is actually designed to kill people?

Huh. See, anyone with a half a brain in their head would recognize a problem with that...

Motor vehicles are far more controlled than guns. That's a fact you really don't like to acknowledge.


I absolutely do acknowledge that.

My point, though, which you're afraid to acknowledge, is that with all those "controls" in place, motor vehicles kill more people than something that is actually designed to kill people...
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