Vast protest in Hong Kong against extradition law - Page 57 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15051770
foxdemon wrote:If the Americans are that bad, why is there so much support for America around the world?


Citation needed.

Rancid wrote:As horrible as the US is, it most certainly allows it's people more freedom when compared to China, like the right to protest/assemble/free speech, etc.


:D
#15051802
skinster wrote:Citation needed.



:D




Here is a recent one from Pew.

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2018/10/01/trumps-international-ratings-remain-low-especially-among-key-allies/


This is on Trump’s global image but it shows support for the US is significant around the world. In fact the disapproval for Trump is mostly about America not playing the leading role everyone wants them to play. Well, everyone with a few exceptions like Pakistan.
#15051806
Rancid wrote:You see people on city street corners with Anti-Trump posters. Would a Chinese person be able to do the same with an anti-Xi Jing Ping poster?


Xi might be a dictator himself, but the bigger sentiment here is the rejection of at least the whole of Communist Party and their collaborators, regardless of who is leading it. Even more extreme, some of us reject the Chinese System in general.

As flawed as the Western System is, the capability to make the likes of Trump do beneficial things once in a while speaks a lot on the advantage of it.

P. S.
Now that various reports revealing China's scheme to control the economy of underdeveloped countries, as well as interfering politics of countries as far as Australia, I think using the argument "the West destroyed tons of countries" to justify a pro-China stance is no longer working. In fact, everyone here is going to be under existential threat if they allow China to change the rule of the game (for example, out of their utopian wish of socialism).
#15051855
Thanks for the many responses - but I want to first define the position I am defending here.
As Hong Konger, if China's policy is not beneficial to us, then I support fighting it - as I have done, voting for the yellows. What I am against, is demonizing China as a whole, and looking to the West for moral guidance. We can use "enemy of my enemy" as leverage against Chinese power, but Americans being morally superior to China is utter rubbish.
foxdemon wrote:Here is an odd fact: support for American imperialism is stronger outside the US than in it. Trump and his base, up and coming Democrats like Gabbard, show there is a lot of opposition to the American empire. A significant proportion of the US population does not want it. Correct me if I am wrong, @Hindsite @Rancid .

Here is another odd fact, your support or opposition doesn't mean jack shit to Washington. With enough propaganda, Americans will again start complaining how the US "has not done enough to support xxx people against dictatorship", and you will support sanctions, blockades, embargoes all the same. After a while, the hawks will start sending arms and drone whoever they want to. As long as no American blood is spilled, you will at most whine a little. Before you know it, your media will inform you who to hate next, Washington will start more shenanigans, and you will support it all the same. China is just the latest entry on US naughty list.

foxdemon wrote:If the Americans are that bad, why is there so much support for America around the world?... There is strong support for US involvement through East Asia, from Taiwan, S Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Australia, SG, etc.

The same countries who support US involvement are the ones with strong US relations and MSM dominance, pushing the same values and world-view. For instance, Hong Kong news used to buy from Reuters and reuse directly (Until China noticed that and try to wrestle dominance), and CNN Philippines is the dominant news channel when it comes to international news. Hollywood also plays a part when it comes to stereotyping world conflicts, heroes and villains through American lens. For example - in many people's minds, dictators wear military uniforms, have a big beard, wear sunglasses and make big speeches. That's basically a lot of military leaders - and it made CNN's job very easy, whenever they need to throw dirt on any US rival, they just need to stress the beards and sunglasses, then move on to accusations.
This liberal capitalist world-view has been spreading throughout the world unopposed since the fall of fascism and communism, its dominance established by the Anglo-world order, and easily accepted by people with certain values. Myself, I do not find it more just or right than its former adversaries, it only depends on what your own values are - most predominantly - "personal freedom over the collective" It is a very strong weapon against societies who built their foundations based on a different sets of values - for example, nationalism, moralistic and collectivist values, or those based on martial/military, or religions.
Countries who are US aligned will also have to accept US media dominance - it is insurance and leverage - in such case their people can have relative "freedom of speech", because the US owns it. If any accident happened to said country's allegiance - then the media turns their people against the leaders - ask Durtete about CNN Philippines. China simply cannot do the same - they need to wall against American narratives, in order to keep their own narratives safe. Who is telling lies you ask? Both are :excited: Not that it ever mattered.

foxdemon wrote:China will find it very difficult to displace America because they can’t create the same culture of fairness. Instead China is regarded as just another regional hegemony who is basically only out for themselves.

I don't think China is trying to displace America - she is just trying to break out of your containment, because she has gotten too big - is it just or fair? Depends on who you ask.
China too has offered lots of benefits to her supporters too, inside China, in Central Asia, South East Asia, and across Africa - same with the Americans to her allies. I mean, who's gonna support you, when you offer no benefit? Essentially, China lent money and experience to countries who desperately needs infrastructure, in return for their support. What's wrong with that? I find it funny how people could gobble up rubbish concepts like "debt trap". Are you saying that you Americans know how to run all these countries better? These countries essentially decided to ally with someone who supports their development, in return of diplomatic support and natural resources - it's a trade they decided to take. What are you offering them besides insults?
And I honestly don't know where the part about American fairness came from. Is that when you station military bases around the world, launch strikes at rival countries at will, or propagate fake news with impunity? Is that when your media decide who is a real democracy and who is not, decide which country should be sanctioned without offering any shred of evidence, or paint heroes and villains whenever Washington decides? Or is that when you benefit from decades of cheap Chinese manufacturing, and decide that we are the polluters, copy cats, and give you bad trade deals - when you are the one who wanted to outsource? Are Americans, being the world hegemony - stupid enough to be "ripped off" by China, or are you just forcing a worse deal down our throat?
P.S. Although I don't find it relevant to this discussion - the thing with Chinese bosses is also changing quickly - don't forget they just started to run private companies since the 80s. I have enjoyed working for a couple Chinese bosses and partners myself, many of them even became long time friend long after I left. Anyway, why have you brought it up besides the implied racism?

JohnRawls wrote:Hong Kong on the other hand is more straight forward, there is no benefit for EU or US in Hong Kong having protests.
There is - the US likes to maintain bones in China's throat. However, per my position here - I support Hong Kongers using US for leverage against Chinese power, that's just how we should play the game. I am advising my friend Patrickov here against trusting the Americans or patronizing them.

Rancid wrote:You see people on city street corners with Anti-Trump posters. Would a Chinese person be able to do the same with an anti-Xi Jing Ping poster?

For you, the freedom to insult your leader is more important than the freedom to not being droned - not for me. To each his own I guess?
And wow, you don't like Americans murdering brown people en masse? How noble of you - I am sure your opinion must be important to Washington! Cause if they don't, you can vote the bum out, for sure the next bum wouldn't dare!

Patrickov wrote:Now that various reports revealing China's scheme to control the economy of underdeveloped countries, as well as interfering politics of countries as far as Australia, I think using the argument "the West destroyed tons of countries" to justify a pro-China stance is no longer working. In fact, everyone here is going to be under existential threat if they allow China to change the rule of the game (for example, out of their utopian wish of socialism).

Yep, for the hundreds of countries destroyed by Chinese drones and millions of people they slaughtered, we must not trust the Chinese. They simply aim to maintain global power no matter the cost on others. They never hesitate to ally Islamist, neo-facists and any human scum to destabilize otherwise decent nations, and continue building their nation on top of mountains of dead bodies. Instead, we should trust countries that supports our national development, invest in our infrastructure and is honest in their intention for natural resources and diplomatic support, like the Americans... wait...?
#15051859
@benpenguin

See here is where we will disagree. EU and US imperealism doesn't go in to actions unless there is a clear benefit to the US or EU. Having simply a bone in Chinas throat is not a benefit. It is a waste of money for nothing basically. On the other hand financial flows are hurt by this. A lot of US/EU companies use HK for financial trade and access to Chinese market.
#15051872
@JohnRawls I don't actually disagree with you. I am not convinced about active US involvement either, limited support and tactics coaching perhaps. The HK people are hysterical enough to fuck things up on their own.
I don't think EU is involved at all in this.
#15051880
Rancid wrote:I wouldn't know the numbers, but yes, there are lots of people in the US that do not want the US act like the world police (i.e. an empire). You can find protests around this point just about in any city in the US. As horrible as the US is, it most certainly allows it's people more freedom when compared to China, like the right to protest/assemble/free speech, etc.

You see people on city street corners with Anti-Trump posters. Would a Chinese person be able to do the same with an anti-Xi Jing Ping poster?

FYI, I'm one of those people that does not want the US to be a global bully.



This post is a hot mess. Are you worried about your street cred with the PFO mob? What a joke, you don't know but it's a lot of people? Either you do or you don't. BTW Your president said that exact thing, he doesn't want to be police to the world. That would really hurt your status here to give credit where it's due.

"As horrible as the U.S. is. ? Again playacting to your international POFO street cred or something what does that does even mean? This mob gets their news from leftist media hacks, and their fake news from Twitter, Facebook and online forum trolls. Any intellect would know that is far from sentiment here in the US. Please stop speaking for the majority.
#15051881
Finfinder wrote:This post is a hot mess. Are you worried about your street cred with the PFO mob? What a joke, you don't know but it's a lot of people? Either you do or you don't. BTW Your president said that exact thing, he doesn't want to be police to the world. That would really hurt your status here to give credit where it's due.

"As horrible as the U.S. is. ? Again playacting to your international POFO street cred or something what does that does even mean? This mob gets their news from leftist media hacks, and their fake news from Twitter, Facebook and online forum trolls. Any intellect would know that is far from sentiment here in the US. Please stop speaking for the majority.


You are making no sense. What Rancid said is 100% correct. That support for US intervention is higher in most places than in the US itself. This has nothing to do with Trump or anti-Trump sentiment by the way.

It actually messes up the rhetoric of democrats and republic alike. Democrats like to claim that US is impirealist but how can that be if support for US intervention/military assistance is so high in the countries it goes to. Ofcourse not in all but in majority of the places. Republicans are hurt by the other side of the story that the US people are not really interested in foreign politics and assistance to foreign powers since they view it as an expenditure for no apparent reason. Its complicated.
#15051911
benpenguin wrote:Thanks for the many responses - but I want to first define the position I am defending here.
As Hong Konger, if China's policy is not beneficial to us, then I support fighting it - as I have done, voting for the yellows. What I am against, is demonizing China as a whole, and looking to the West for moral guidance. We can use "enemy of my enemy" as leverage against Chinese power, but Americans being morally superior to China is utter rubbish.

Here is another odd fact, your support or opposition doesn't mean jack shit to Washington. With enough propaganda, Americans will again start complaining how the US "has not done enough to support xxx people against dictatorship", and you will support sanctions, blockades, embargoes all the same. After a while, the hawks will start sending arms and drone whoever they want to. As long as no American blood is spilled, you will at most whine a little. Before you know it, your media will inform you who to hate next, Washington will start more shenanigans, and you will support it all the same. China is just the latest entry on US naughty list.


The same countries who support US involvement are the ones with strong US relations and MSM dominance, pushing the same values and world-view. For instance, Hong Kong news used to buy from Reuters and reuse directly (Until China noticed that and try to wrestle dominance), and CNN Philippines is the dominant news channel when it comes to international news. Hollywood also plays a part when it comes to stereotyping world conflicts, heroes and villains through American lens. For example - in many people's minds, dictators wear military uniforms, have a big beard, wear sunglasses and make big speeches. That's basically a lot of military leaders - and it made CNN's job very easy, whenever they need to throw dirt on any US rival, they just need to stress the beards and sunglasses, then move on to accusations.
This liberal capitalist world-view has been spreading throughout the world unopposed since the fall of fascism and communism, its dominance established by the Anglo-world order, and easily accepted by people with certain values. Myself, I do not find it more just or right than its former adversaries, it only depends on what your own values are - most predominantly - "personal freedom over the collective" It is a very strong weapon against societies who built their foundations based on a different sets of values - for example, nationalism, moralistic and collectivist values, or those based on martial/military, or religions.
Countries who are US aligned will also have to accept US media dominance - it is insurance and leverage - in such case their people can have relative "freedom of speech", because the US owns it. If any accident happened to said country's allegiance - then the media turns their people against the leaders - ask Durtete about CNN Philippines. China simply cannot do the same - they need to wall against American narratives, in order to keep their own narratives safe. Who is telling lies you ask? Both are :excited: Not that it ever mattered.


So what you are saying is that America has mind control abilities and that is why they have so much support. I don’t think there are many people around the world who believe a word US media puts out. That is not the reason America gets acceptance.


I don't think China is trying to displace America - she is just trying to break out of your containment, because she has gotten too big - is it just or fair? Depends on who you ask.
China too has offered lots of benefits to her supporters too, inside China, in Central Asia, South East Asia, and across Africa - same with the Americans to her allies. I mean, who's gonna support you, when you offer no benefit? Essentially, China lent money and experience to countries who desperately needs infrastructure, in return for their support. What's wrong with that? I find it funny how people could gobble up rubbish concepts like "debt trap". Are you saying that you Americans know how to run all these countries better? These countries essentially decided to ally with someone who supports their development, in return of diplomatic support and natural resources - it's a trade they decided to take. What are you offering them besides insults?
And I honestly don't know where the part about American fairness came from. Is that when you station military bases around the world, launch strikes at rival countries at will, or propagate fake news with impunity? Is that when your media decide who is a real democracy and who is not, decide which country should be sanctioned without offering any shred of evidence, or paint heroes and villains whenever Washington decides? Or is that when you benefit from decades of cheap Chinese manufacturing, and decide that we are the polluters, copy cats, and give you bad trade deals - when you are the one who wanted to outsource? Are Americans, being the world hegemony - stupid enough to be "ripped off" by China, or are you just forcing a worse deal down our throat?
P.S. Although I don't find it relevant to this discussion - the thing with Chinese bosses is also changing quickly - don't forget they just started to run private companies since the 80s. I have enjoyed working for a couple Chinese bosses and partners myself, many of them even became long time friend long after I left. Anyway, why have you brought it up besides the implied racism?


First off, regarding the implied racism, that is how Indonesians see things. I am just reporting their opinions as to why they prefer working for American companies rather than Chinese companies. If you think that is racist, you should take it up with them.

Regarding Chinese investment and loans, there does seem to be opposition in local communities. I would have to look into it to get a good sense as to why. But what I have heard is complaints about using Chinese workers rather than local workers, lack of community engagement in signing deals, and similar examples of local interests being ignored. It seems the standard operating method is find a local offical or two who can be bought, then push through treaties and leave the blow back for local governments to deal with.

That approach looks a lot like the 19th century European approach. I am sure you are familiar with the unequal treaties of that era.

But see, that is who the Americans are morally superior too, the old European imperial powers. I have been reading about the rise of Japan and the fall of the Qing dynasty. The European leaders of that era were shocking. Apart from being racist, at least to the extent that suited them, they were also autocratic and contemptuous of those of lower station in life. Kaiser Wilhelm II is a good example. He wrote to the Tsar about Japan as the yellow peril and encouraged Nicolás II to go to war with Japan to protect all Christendom, which was a cynical ploy to break the Franco-Russian alliance. Not to mention his anti-semitism. Oh, and he was a major influence on starting WWI. His peers ruling other European countries weren’t much different.

Clearly the American world order is preferable to what came before it. Surely you don’t want to go back to a world like that? I think China has not moved passed that period, and wants to regain lost face by revenge. But in doing so, China might resurrect that old imperial world order.
#15052001
That's just American exceptionalism at it's finest! :D
foxdemon wrote:So what you are saying is that America has mind control abilities and that is why they have so much support. I don’t think there are many people around the world who believe a word US media puts out. That is not the reason America gets acceptance.

Why is it that when Americans does propaganda, it's "moral superiority", and when other countries do it, it's propaganda? You guys own all every major MSM, Hollywood, Youtube, Facebook, everything - unopposed in the world for decades - we're just gonna pretend that, if people didn't believe every word, then it has no effect?
Americans decide what facts is to be reported, who is a hero and who's a villain; you define what is fake news, you control the narratives and you have mockingbirds everywhere.
So yep, that is pretty much mind control.
China does the exact same thing in their GFW, except that we don't have the infrastructure to do it on a global scale, so we limit your voice within our space.
Hey don't judge, we learnt from the best!

foxdemon wrote:That approach looks a lot like the 19th century European approach. I am sure you are familiar with the unequal treaties of that era.

Last time I checked, the 19th century European approach involved invading, pillaging, slavery and setting up colonial governments everywhere, signed the unequal treaties at gun point - and Americans also joined in most of the action back then. It's a very low bar to beat but yeah congrats you guys are better now.
We negotiated our deals, built infrastructure, paid taxes, hired people and invested in many sectors - so I am not too sure what you are talking about?
For the hiring bit, if Indonesia has enough skilled labor with these projects, they would already have built it all themselves. Is China supposed to conjure engineers and builders out of thin air?
But I understand we can probably never match American fairness, quality, labour rights, environmental standards and financial risk management - oops my bad- you guys will only sneer on the side, tell everyone how evil we are, and won't lift a finger :lol:
Now I get it, they should never get their stuff built!
#15052091
Rugoz wrote:Do they? They cannot even agree on that themselves.
That happens when the machine is getting too big, but the "Washington consensus" is not far usually far off when all MSM more or less reports the same stuff. They just fight when it comes to Reps vs Dems.
#15052146
benpenguin wrote:That happens when the machine is getting too big, but the "Washington consensus" is not far usually far off when all MSM more or less reports the same stuff. They just fight when it comes to Reps vs Dems.
With almost everyone around me, including my family, sharing how the people found most, if not all, things said by thd Chinese Government are false, inaccurate or exaggerated, almost all of the time, I am uncertain on the accuracy of the statement on the so-called "Western Media machine".

We have been long educated that one-side stories cannot be trusted. Therefore, somewhat ironically, if we only have Western media to see and not other sources, I probably would have agreed with My Honourable Friend more.
#15052160
@Patrickov For me, Chinese news is about as credible as MSM, otherwise known as "a steaming pile of dunk" - but if you want to know both sides you have to cross check it. It will at least tell you what’s their official version of events (with enough evidence, sometimes I might even believe in them), and their position on various issues. Very often, what you hear from HK news re-reporting of China news is cherry picked from the worst possible comments of the dumbest nationalists - just to piss people off, and confirm whatever bias they want to push - many times it’s nothing mainstream. But amongst all the flag waving dummies, there are always thoughtful articles that analyze events in a sensible way, you just need to know where to find - our last video from 陳啟宗 is shared quite widely among my friends, for example.
Most of the time, I start with getting an idea of Chinese official positions available on Baidu, then move to search for Wechat and 知乎articles, 虎嗅occasionally too. Warning: quality varies, be patient!

For other international events, it's even harder. The best I can do sometimes is cross check MSM with Pofo + various forums, RT, or third party country news, then fact check them. For example, I sometimes look at Chinese and Indian reporting on Middle Eastern conflicts since these countries are much less involved but still take an interest in the region. Independent journalists can be good too, occasionally - if you stay critical. But to be honest, the airwaves are too dominated by the media conglomerates and everybody has an agenda - it's not easy to find credible alternatives consistently.

As I said, it takes a lot of work.
#15052592




foxdemon wrote:Here is a recent one from Pew.

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2018/10/01/trumps-international-ratings-remain-low-especially-among-key-allies/


That was what you found to prove "...why is there so much support for America around the world?" :lol:

JohnRawls wrote:What Rancid said is 100% correct. That support for US intervention is higher in most places than in the US itself.


Riiiiight.
#15052742
skinster wrote:https://twitter.com/liamstone_19/status/1200895901998272513?s=20



The first is exaggeration and ignores how much worse police violence had been before the United States passed their sanction-enabling law.

The second can be interpreted as those neo-Nazis, for once, doing right things.

And I still do not understand why this member acts like purposefully slandering my people and inducing anger. This member should seriously reference the other Honourable Hongkonger in this thread if he actually wants to voice support for the Chinese regime. These tweets are of very low level and only shows the shallowness of the sharer's decision.
#15052743


Patrickov wrote:The first is exaggeration and ignores how much worse police violence had been before the United States passed their sanction-enabling law.


The first clip is another video of the violence from the protesters you support.

You are welcome to post about police violence in this thread.

The second can be interpreted as those neo-Nazis, for once, doing right things.


:lol:

And I still do not understand why this member acts like purposefully slandering my people and inducing anger.


I'm not slandering your people, but you are.
#15052760
@skinster The extradition movements does in fact, belong to the right wing spectrum and some even openly identify to it. So this is indeed "wrong" in the eyes of American liberals, but they are mostly okay as long as the enemy is Chinese government. For the American right wingers, the two sides are perfectly aligned - notice how they love Trump so much?
Also, as long as MSM don't mention it, American liberals will just consider these fringe news. You can post more protester violence but honestly it doesn't mean anything to anybody... unfortunately.
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