Thanks for the many responses - but I want to first define the position I am defending here.
As Hong Konger, if China's policy is not beneficial to us, then I support fighting it
- as I have done, voting for the yellows. What I am against, is demonizing China as a whole, and looking to the West for moral guidance. We can use "enemy of my enemy" as leverage against Chinese power, but Americans being morally superior to China is utter rubbish.
foxdemon wrote:Here is an odd fact: support for American imperialism is stronger outside the US than in it. Trump and his base, up and coming Democrats like Gabbard, show there is a lot of opposition to the American empire. A significant proportion of the US population does not want it. Correct me if I am wrong, @Hindsite @Rancid .
Here is another odd fact, your support or opposition doesn't mean jack shit to Washington. With enough propaganda, Americans will again start complaining how the US "has not done enough to support xxx people against dictatorship", and you will support sanctions, blockades, embargoes all the same. After a while, the hawks will start sending arms and drone whoever they want to. As long as no American blood is spilled, you will at most whine a little. Before you know it, your media will inform you who to hate next, Washington will start more shenanigans, and you will support it all the same. China is just the latest entry on US naughty list.
foxdemon wrote:If the Americans are that bad, why is there so much support for America around the world?... There is strong support for US involvement through East Asia, from Taiwan, S Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Australia, SG, etc.
The same countries who support US involvement are the ones with strong US relations and MSM dominance, pushing the same values and world-view. For instance, Hong Kong news used to buy from Reuters and reuse directly (Until China noticed that and try to wrestle dominance), and CNN Philippines is the dominant news channel when it comes to international news. Hollywood also plays a part when it comes to stereotyping world conflicts, heroes and villains through American lens. For example - in many people's minds, dictators wear military uniforms, have a big beard, wear sunglasses and make big speeches. That's basically a lot of military leaders - and it made CNN's job very easy, whenever they need to throw dirt on any US rival, they just need to stress the beards and sunglasses, then move on to accusations.
This liberal capitalist world-view has been spreading throughout the world unopposed since the fall of fascism and communism, its dominance established by the Anglo-world order, and easily accepted by people with certain values. Myself, I do not find it more just or right than its former adversaries, it only depends on what your own values are - most predominantly - "personal freedom over the collective" It is a very strong weapon against societies who built their foundations based on a different sets of values - for example, nationalism, moralistic and collectivist values, or those based on martial/military, or religions.
Countries who are US aligned will also have to accept US media dominance - it is insurance and leverage - in such case their people can have relative "freedom of speech", because the US owns it. If any accident happened to said country's allegiance - then the media turns their people against the leaders - ask Durtete about CNN Philippines. China simply cannot do the same - they need to wall against American narratives, in order to keep their own narratives safe. Who is telling lies you ask? Both are
Not that it ever mattered.
foxdemon wrote:China will find it very difficult to displace America because they can’t create the same culture of fairness. Instead China is regarded as just another regional hegemony who is basically only out for themselves.
I don't think China is trying to displace America - she is just trying to break out of your containment, because she has gotten too big - is it just or fair? Depends on who you ask.
China too has offered lots of benefits to her supporters too, inside China, in Central Asia, South East Asia, and across Africa - same with the Americans to her allies. I mean, who's gonna support you, when you offer no benefit? Essentially, China lent money and experience to countries who desperately needs infrastructure, in return for their support. What's wrong with that? I find it funny how people could gobble up rubbish concepts like "debt trap". Are you saying that you Americans know how to run all these countries better? These countries essentially decided to ally with someone who supports their development, in return of diplomatic support and natural resources - it's a trade they decided to take. What are you offering them besides insults?
And I honestly don't know where the part about American fairness came from. Is that when you station military bases around the world, launch strikes at rival countries at will, or propagate fake news with impunity? Is that when your media decide who is a real democracy and who is not, decide which country should be sanctioned without offering any shred of evidence, or paint heroes and villains whenever Washington decides? Or is that when you benefit from decades of cheap Chinese manufacturing, and decide that we are the polluters, copy cats, and give you bad trade deals - when you are the one who wanted to outsource? Are Americans, being the world hegemony - stupid enough to be "ripped off" by China, or are you just forcing a worse deal down our throat?
P.S. Although I don't find it relevant to this discussion - the thing with Chinese bosses is also changing quickly - don't forget they just started to run private companies since the 80s. I have enjoyed working for a couple Chinese bosses and partners myself, many of them even became long time friend long after I left. Anyway, why have you brought it up besides the implied racism?
JohnRawls wrote:Hong Kong on the other hand is more straight forward, there is no benefit for EU or US in Hong Kong having protests.
There is - the US likes to maintain bones in China's throat. However, per my position here - I support Hong Kongers using US for leverage against Chinese power, that's just how we should play the game. I am advising my friend Patrickov here against trusting the Americans or patronizing them.
Rancid wrote:You see people on city street corners with Anti-Trump posters. Would a Chinese person be able to do the same with an anti-Xi Jing Ping poster?
For you, the freedom to insult your leader is more important than the freedom to not being droned - not for me. To each his own I guess?
And wow, you don't like Americans murdering brown people en masse? How noble of you - I am sure your opinion must be important to Washington! Cause if they don't, you can vote the bum out, for sure the next bum wouldn't dare!
Patrickov wrote:Now that various reports revealing China's scheme to control the economy of underdeveloped countries, as well as interfering politics of countries as far as Australia, I think using the argument "the West destroyed tons of countries" to justify a pro-China stance is no longer working. In fact, everyone here is going to be under existential threat if they allow China to change the rule of the game (for example, out of their utopian wish of socialism).
Yep, for the hundreds of countries destroyed by Chinese drones and millions of people they slaughtered, we must not trust the Chinese. They simply aim to maintain global power no matter the cost on others. They never hesitate to ally Islamist, neo-facists and any human scum to destabilize otherwise decent nations, and continue building their nation on top of mountains of dead bodies. Instead, we should trust countries that supports our national development, invest in our infrastructure and is honest in their intention for natural resources and diplomatic support, like the Americans... wait...?
Society changes, politics changes, no ideology should remain stationary.