illegal to be muscular in Sweden/Belgium - Page 8 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15052776
Godstud wrote:Source, please. Please show me the law against this in Georgia, USA, and tell me all about American laws, in this regard. I know of no American gyms testing for steroids, unless they are cooperating with an organization that wants its members clean, like the IFBB.

No, not in America. Thankfully not yet.

We wouldn't find a lot of people like you there.
#15052777
Puffer Fish wrote:We wouldn't find a lot of people like you there.
Ad hominems when arguments can't be made, huh? :roll:

Your argument is nullified as you make claims that this is a real problem(like in Hindsite's case), but then cannot prove that it is.
#15052780
Godstud wrote:If you're going to throw stones... There is a balance, and that's something you seem incapable of realizing.

I agree there is a balance, but am saying that what happened in those stories is completely unreasonable.

Obviously where I think a balance should be is very far away from where you think it should be.


If this was a crime like a rape or robbery, then I would agree that maybe the police should use more aggressive tactics.
#15052782
Puffer Fish wrote:You keep repeating that, so it's obvious you completely misunderstand the point of this thread.
No, I do not misunderstand the thread. You misunderstand the intent of the law and the cooperation of the gyms with the law, to make illegal steroid use and sales in gyms, unpalatable to abusers.

Puffer Fish wrote:I obviously meant if he was in Belgium and was hugely muscular. Which is a hypothetical.
It's still a ridiculous hypothetical as I've already pointed out that it goes far beyond someone who is merely muscular, but someone who exhibits signs of steroid use(which I've already pointed out, with sources, can be identified).

Puffer Fish wrote:I agree there is a balance, but am saying that what happened in those stories is completely unreasonable.
It's not when you consider that the gyms are working in cooperation with the state, to get rid of steroid abuse within their gyms. People are still free to go to gyms that are not a part of this program(roughly 50%).

Puffer Fish wrote:Obviously where I think a balance should be is very far away from where you think it should be. You aren't looking for balance.
Yes, since you are clearly against enforcement of drug laws in gyms, and people being punished for their drug use, even when there are signs of said drug use.
#15052783
Godstud wrote: :roll: That's not true. You are exaggerating AGAIN. We are not discussing that.

Sometimes we need to take a look at an extreme example to understand what's wrong with a little example.

Yes, I am drawing some hyperbolic analogies, it's the only way you might be able to have some glimmer of insight into why this might be wrong.

You seem to think it's okay because this is only a tiny segment of the population.

Would you be okay if police applied this same treatment to everyone? And not just steroid law, but enforcing all laws?
#15052785
@Puffer Fish This is already applied to laws pertaining to drug and alcohol abuse. The only difference is that this is pertaining to illegal steroids.
Last edited by Godstud on 06 Dec 2019 07:17, edited 1 time in total.
#15052787
Godstud wrote:You misunderstand the intent of the law

But the intent of the law is not the effect of the law.

Godstud wrote: and the cooperation of the gyms with the law, to make illegal steroid use and sales in gyms, unpalatable to abusers.

If this cooperation is voluntary, and I have wrongly misunderstood what's actually going on here, then I see no problem.

The real question is: Can a private gym decide not to be "clean" gym? And can an individual citizen in Belgium and Sweden decide to go to one of these private gyms without being compelled to be a member of some third-party anti-doping organization?

If the answer is yes, and there's no coercion by government here, then I see no problem.
Last edited by Puffer Fish on 06 Dec 2019 07:21, edited 1 time in total.
#15052788
Puffer Fish wrote:If this cooperation is voluntary, and I have wrongly misunderstood what's actually going on here, then I see no problem.
It IS. That is what I have been saying and what the sources have said.

If you don't want the chance to be nailed for your illegal steroid use, you don't go to gyms using the "Clean" program.

It really helps to do more than read a single article and then base everything off of that, instead of looking into this further, as I did... as it applies to more than simply Belgium, and Sweden.

In Denmark any person training in a gym that has entered into a collaboration agreement with Anti-Doping Denmark (the country’s national anti-doping organisation) may be subject to doping controls.Gyms in Denmark must indicate at their entrance and on their website by means of a happy or frowning icon whether or not they are part of this agreement.

Sweden also has doping controls at training facilities and Norway’s anti-doping strategies have an element of monitoring and policing. For instance,fitness centres that adopt the anti-doping programme in Norway receive a licence to carry out tests on members suspected of doping. There is no legal obligation to sign up to be a “Clean Centre”, but gyms that do are perceived to have a reputational advantage.About half of Norway’s fitness centres now have a Clean Centre certificate.

https://theconversation.com/doping-cont ... hink-68797
#15052791
Steroids are ILLEGAL in Belgium. Enforcement of the laws are something taken extremely seriously in Belgium(anti doping regulations) and thus they have far more enforcement.

This isn't taking the right away from you to visit a gym or being overly muscular, but you might have to deal with some suspicion and a test if you are extremely muscled and show signs of steroid abuse.

You have the right to voluntarily go to a gym, or not.
#15052974
@Hindsite You know, you said you'd try to be polite, and discuss things reasonably,, without insults, but you haven't even made an attempt. Are you simply not honourable enough to follow through on your word? :?:

I am a Conservative, where the law is concerned, but you can't see that because you are back to flinging poo, and being as reactionary as Puffer Fish, who thinks that the rights of the individual out-weight the rights of society... a very liberal view. :O

What is wrong with law enforcement enforcing drug laws cooperating with gyms @Hindsite ? Isn't enforcement of existing laws a Conservative view? You are holding a very LIBERAL view on policing if you think that people should just get away with using and selling illegal drugs, without recourse of the law.
#15052976
Godstud wrote:@Hindsite You know, you said you'd try to be polite, and discuss things reasonably,, without insults, but you haven't even made an attempt. Are you simply not honourable enough to follow through on your word? :?:

I wasn't even talking to you and I did not call you a Democrat either. I know you are from Canada and live in Thailand.
#15052977
Hindsite wrote:Many of the Democrats are becoming just like Godstud. It is a crying shame.
That's my name there. You were obviously talking to me. Don't be a liar, as well as being rude person who doesn't keep their word.
#15052980
Godstud wrote:That's my name there. You were obviously talking to me. Don't be a liar, as well as being rude person who doesn't keep their word.

No, I was talking to Puffer Fish.
#15052985
@Hindsite Don't use me in your conversation then. It's rude and it was obviously meant to be insulting.

You supporting Puffer Fish is very Liberal and Democrat of you. Personal rights over those of everyone else, right? :lol:
#15052986
Godstud wrote:@Hindsite Don't use me in your conversation then. It's rude and it was obviously meant to be insulting.

You supporting Puffer Fish is very Liberal and Democrat of you. Personal rights over those of everyone else, right? :lol:

"Personal rights" is a conservative principle from the U.S. Constitution. But you, being a Canadian, wouldn't know that.
#15052998
This is about rule of law, which is also a Conservative issue... or do you deny that strong long enforcement isn't a conservative principle?

There are already laws in place that allow police to search and give tests to people suspected of drug/alcohol use. The only difference is that this is in gyms in Europe, where steroid abuse is a real problem. The gyms have cooperated with the police to enforce these rules and to stop elite athletes from cheating as well as other illegal drug use.

This is not an issue, nor is it likely to be an issue, in American or Canadian gyms, although the DEA already looks for steroid abusers.

DEA Busts Steroid Traffickers And Dismantles Laboratories Across The Nation
DEA-led Operation Cyber Juice - comprised of over 30 different U.S. investigations in 20 states, resulted in the seizure of 16 underground steroid labs, 90 arrests, and the seizure of 134,000 steroid dosage units, 636 kilograms of raw steroid powder, 8,200 liters of raw steroid injectable liquid, over $2 million in cash and assets. In addition, DEA and its partners assisted in foreign steroid investigations coordinated by Europol. Domestic law enforcement partners include DHS Homeland Security (HSI) and the U.S. Postal Inspection Service.
https://www.dea.gov/press-releases/2015 ... oss-nation

Steroid distribution results in four convictions
DEA Oklahoma dismantles steroid distribution network
https://www.dea.gov/press-releases/2018 ... onvictions

I know all about "personal rights", as Canadians have most of the same rights Americans have. If you doubt this, try looking at the Canadian Bill of Rights, some day. You might find that you're not "freer" than anyone else.
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