Rancid wrote:The funny thing about America is that, I remember a time in the 90s where leftists were against globalization and free trade. Now we have a president that is placing what is arguably anti-free trade policies in place, and these same people don't like it. Of course, it's because this is about politics, and not principles. This is one rare area where I side with TRumpsters.
As a former Republican, it's a political position that has changed for me. The irony of it is that I do very well--better than most--with free trade, but I'm willing to sacrifice some of my prosperity for the benefit of my fellow countryman. I just happen to think that the way to do that is via tariffs not income taxes. Obviously, people like late are either naked capitalist shills hiding behind some sort of cover of "Progressiveness", or they uncritically accept political rhetoric if it is from a trusted source. I used to do that when I was a Republican too. I've just watched what free trade and open borders have done to California over 30 years, and I simply do not accept what the major parties have to say anymore. I'm committed to their destruction.
Rancid wrote:Personally, I don't think the US should be putting up tariffs against our neighbors (Mexico). We should be fostering the absolute best relations with our neighbors. Because they are our neighbors, but also because it's better for the environment to trade more with your neighbors.
Mexico and the US have had rocky relations up until the late 1980s. NAFTA was part of the international capitalist cabal's fantasy of a hemispheric trading bloc that didn't take into account other critical factors. Free trade with China was predicated on a whim that China would be democratic by now--it's not, and getting obviously much worse and wanting to export the nastiest part of Chinese politics to the rest of the world.
Rancid wrote:On one hand, the US (and west) in general does have a bone to pick with respect to things like IP theft (seen it with my own eyes many times), on the other hand, I don't believe there's really anything anyone can do to stop that so why rock the boat with tariffs?
IP theft is sanctioned by the Chinese government. Something can be done to stop it. Increase tariffs on Chinese-made goods and reduce trade with China. There are other problems too--like China exporting fentanyl to Mexico and then shipping it across the US-Mexico border to kill Americans. China doesn't have human rights. They can stop that straight away. They are doing it, because our leaders have been bought off. Only wrecking China's economy would make the Chinese leadership realize it's not worth it.
Rancid wrote:The tariffs have sped up the process of western companies and governments decoupling their supply chains from China, and also Chinese companies and the government decoupling their supply chains from the west.
That is exactly what I want to see happening, and that's why I want the trade problems to persist.
Rancid wrote:I'm a firm believer in the idea that one of the main things that prevents war, is economic interdependence. Take that away, and ...
Yeah, people think that's the case. Yet, people like to comment on IBM, GM, Coca-Cola, and so on doing business with Nazi Germany. The economic interdependence was already there, and we went to war anyway. Economic interdependence does not necessarily lead to peace.
Rancid wrote:Seems like China's hegemonic ambitions are becoming far more apparent to the general global populace than in decades past. Governments and connected/intellectuals/educated people have known this for decades, but it's becoming more understood by "regular" people.
Today's Nazi sympathizers are pro-China--like LeBron James, or Larry Page and Sergey Brin. They simple drop "don't be evil" and become evil, because it's financially beneficial for them to do so. Their morality is no different than that of slave traders, war profiteers, or Nazis. They simply do what's in their immediate interest and do not care fuck all for anyone else.
Rancid wrote:Given this, it's not going to be business as usual going forward after Trump is out and the tariffs are lifted. This is a permanent fundamental change in how the rest of the world interacts with China.
Yes, and it needed to happen.
Rancid wrote:At some point, somethings gotta give." Kind of feels like we're getting closer to that point where "something will give". I don't know what the something is yet.
One thing that is giving is that people do not trust the mainstream media or establishment politicians anymore. You do have shills for them like drlee or late--different flavors, but still defending the same system. However, the masses don't trust the establishment now. That's also something that spans Trump's economic policies and the US. It's pretty clear to the Gilets Jaunes as well--same problems, different locale.
Tainari88 wrote:First Relampaguito, you got to stop thinking you are the average earner American worker. You are not.
Oh, I have no illusions about that. If I were married to someone that earns like me, we would be considered rich. As it is, I'm upper middle class.
Tainari88 wrote:Older societies coping with class structures have to go for more advanced forms of organizing society. Socialism is a more advanced form.
I don't agree that socialism is more advanced.
Tainari88 wrote:They already tried heartless capitalism and it led to loss of people, social unrest and violence.
There is no doubt that capitalism has resulted in the loss of a lot of life, but it has also resulted in the greatest explosion in human survival rates such that even in the wake of the most bloody of wars--WWI and WWII--we still found ourselves with an overpopulation problem due to collapsing infant and child mortality rates and increased life expectancy.
Tainari88 wrote:Trying to charge people bombed by Nazis from the sky for medical care would have made the government at the time highly unpopular so covering everyone with the NHS and universal health care was done.
They did charge people anyway, just with taxes. The NHS is anything but free.
Tainari88 wrote:Not out of the goodness of their hearts but because of pragmatism and political survival BJ.
Pragmatism that then becomes a political trap--like heroin, once you start using it, it's difficult to stop.
Tainari88 wrote:The USA is going to have to do the same.
The US can't do the same, because the cost structure of healthcare is too high to be socialized. It would collapse the US economy, and thereby collapse much of the global economy. It's not something to wish for if you're not living in America.
Tainari88 wrote:You might think it is freedom being screwed over with health care, and not having decent public educations?
We have the money for decent public education. We just have a corrupt education system rife with degenerate socialists.
Tainari88 wrote:For most workers freedom means? Having a secure job and not being laid off periodically in recessions and depressions, owning the means of producing, and knowing you can feed your kids, keep your roof, get your kids a vocation or a profession, and knowing if you have a tooth ache, or need an emergency service and have not paid your insurance premium that month you are not going to be dead or broke. True freedom. The freedom that people in the six figure income bracket have with no ex wives or children to support and who have a lot of money in general don't represent the entire world.
Actually, owning your own home without property tax creates a lot more security than a secure job. However, that job security can be helped along by tariffs, regulatory schemes, government jobs and the like. It doesn't cost anywhere near as much as people get charged to fix a broken tooth or even set a broken leg. Without a free market, prices will go higher. In the US, almost everything gets cheaper except for government, education, health care, education and real estate. These big four have to be addressed.
late wrote:2) For some people, I imagine that is true. You might say we have been overly indulgent to China and Japan. That require adjustment, not the mindless moves Trump has been doing.
"Mindless moves" is an alliterative phrase, which gets me thinking you didn't come up with that yourself. Trump's policies are not mindless by a long shot. Trump's general tariffs have been on steel and aluminium only. Otherwise, Trump has targeted China.
late wrote:4) China has a new IP court, and it's working. The situation sucks, but I doubt it's any worse than our domestic IP problems, at this point.
Great. China should not mind having tariffs on their goods until as much in tariffs on Chinese goods have been paid into the US treasury as China has stolen from US firms.
late wrote:6) Once Trump screwed up, other Asian countries started making nice with China, quickly. When you add that to their economic initiatives like Silk Road and BRI, they are on track to be the Asian hegemon within a decade (roughly). I don't think we can unring that bell.
It's in the interest of other Asian states to take advantage of the trade dispute between the US and China. The forgotten victims of China’s Belt and Road Initiative
In the run-up to the event, many critics have highlighted the projects’ negative impacts on host countries, such as debt traps, land seizures, corruption and environmental degradation. Some have pointed out the difficulties of establishing fair methods for resolving the many disputes that are arising between China and its new partners. A few have criticized the failure of certain projects to create adequate jobs for locals.
Indeed, the Chinese are doing things like building ports and staffing them with Chinese rather than local workers. It looks just like colonialism. Free money is not free.
The recent federal criminal conviction of a Chinese construction firm executive for subjecting workers in New York to forced labor is a case in point. According to trial testimony, prior to leaving China, the workers signed contracts promising to not interact with locals, to not leave their residence without permission and to return to China after completing their multi-year assignment — at which point the bulk of their salary would be paid. Each worker was required to post a security deposit of more than $20,000 to guarantee his compliance. Once in New York, workers’ passports were seized and they were required to work long hours and live in unsafe conditions. Fear of losing their security deposit and not collecting their earned wages essentially handcuffed them from escaping this exploitation.
China is a slave state, and we should not be trading with them. It's just immoral.
late wrote:7) We are going to have to come up with a new relationship with Asia. Revanchism is just another word for war in this case.
So? War is a pretty natural thing. Do you think war is just going to disappear if you have the "right" ideas?
"Unlike the African-American community, with notable exceptions, the Latino community is an incredibly diverse community with incredibly different attitudes about different things. "
-- Joe Biden