[late]

There are too many people suggesting the situation so dire that I find that necessary. Not that it is a desirable thing, of course.

You don't save democracy by killing it.

That's what Republicans do.

[Drlee]

@Tainari88 I repeat, to anyone willing to answer me? Is this trial going to be able to oust Trump from office? Because I think Trump is so power hungry and narcissistic that he is capable of just coming up with schemes to declare himself maximum leader for life and stay in office forever. He is that kind of low life.

This trial is a political sham. He is guilty of what he is accused of doing but there is absolutely no way that the republicans are going to remove him from office though God knows I can't see why. They would get "old reliable" Pence who would forward their agenda and could move the party back to the center where it belongs in the eyes of independent voters. Either way though it will be a crushing loss for the democrats.

He reminds me of some pathological lying abusers without scruples, ethics or morals who became dictators in Latin America and even those were better human beings than Trump has shown himself to be.....so the question is? Is this trial going to oust him? Yes or no?

No it will not. He will emerge from it stronger than he has ever been, very likely to be reelected and facing a demoralized enemy. He will immediately begin his "exonerated" stadium tour to rally his base.

I think it is going to be failed attempt and the elections are going to be close and tight yet again and his moves will be to sail into another four years and solidify his power and go into a bloody and costly war and he will profit and the American Republic turned Empire is going to go down the tubes fiscally, socially, morally and spiritually.

Well that is a lot in one paragraph. Yes he will sail into another four years. Yes he will be far more powerful than before. He may not get us into a war because the only reason he would ever go to war is to save his political hide. Our economy is long overdue a correction. We have no interest rate so there is no real tool to pump liquidity into the economy except to inflate. Since the very wealthy are pretty immune to a downturn. even a severe one, my guess is that they will just let the people suffer and blame it on the "liberals".

I always knew the USA was a fake country in terms of democracy.

The US constitution was created with some very noble goals. It enshrined some personal freedoms that used to be rare in the world. But we Americans do not remember that the government the founders threw off was already a nominal democracy with arguably more power reposed in more people than the one they created. The final product of revolt, our constitution, was a masterful compromise that replaced the then very powerful House of Lords with the Senate. In this compromise move the fate of our democracy was sealed. You see it in these proceedings. The republican Senators who hold the majority represent a fraction of the voters that the democratic party senators represent. Consider that each voter in Wyoming, when voting for his/her senator, is wielding the same political power as 68 Californians. So what we have now is not a representative government but rather one that simply angles for Senators. At the end of the day, Mitch McConnell is far more powerful than Trump. Indeed at this moment could, with a few phone calls, tell Mr. Trump, "you're fired".

If you have colonies you abuse your claims of fair play and fair dealings are sheer nonsense. But American people fed myths of glory for centuries are hard to deprogram.

American glory and American hegemony is not a myth. It was a very real thing until not that many years ago. Though you are seeing it through the eyes of a colonist I can assure you the rest of the world is not. Even to this day the US is an extremely powerful economic power (if not the most powerful one) and certainly the most powerful military power. For all of the wry comments and condescending looks from foreign leaders during the Trump administration every one of them has been very careful not to kick sand in Trump's face.

@Patrickov "And I am saying that being a Trump supporter myself."

First of all I would like to know why you are a Trump supporter. You are from Hong Kong. He has studiously avoided supporting your struggle for independence. He has imposed sanctions against your country that have hurt even with the sham distinction between Hong Kong and the PRC. I suppose that the high US debt gives the wealthier folks from Hong Kong some more investment opportunities but tell us. Why is Trump important to you and what has he done to help you. (And please refrain from sending on a search for your previous posts. Do it here and now please.)

[Tainari88]

And I wonder why nobody dares to make a war on Trump, the Republican Party and their supporters.

It is funny to see Hongkongers are going to be the model of everywhere else. If some still believes the United States incite Hongkongers into anti-China, maybe this time things should work the other way round. Learn from us. Cripple the enemies both militarily and economically.

And in United States anti-Trump people probably have support from a significant portion of the richest 1%. This should be a far easier war to fight than what we are fighting.

If one believes a war is so inevitable, make one to preempt it. Seriously.

You think people don't try to rebel against these power hungry people all over the world in many nations, in many situations in history? They all do Patrikov but they fail to be successful at it because the powerful use terror, power and wealth with police forces, armies, corporate connections, banks, loans, and threats a la mafia to make it extremely hard to get rid of them.

The USA has been riding on myth and fumes for a while now....I don't cry for them at all if they are messed up permanently forever. What they have done to many other places in the world is not to shed a tear for their destroyed government. They deserve an incompetent, fumbling, evil government filled with liars and thieves and to be burned out of the power seat. If anyone deserves a loss of position and power it is the USA. For sure.

[Rancid]

Another Trump lie is when he said no one was hurt during the Iran missile attack.

I wonder if his bullshitting would sway military types to not support him in 2020.

[Patrickov]

First of all I would like to know why you are a Trump supporter. You are from Hong Kong. He has studiously avoided supporting your struggle for independence. He has imposed sanctions against your country that have hurt even with the sham distinction between Hong Kong and the PRC. I suppose that the high US debt gives the wealthier folks from Hong Kong some more investment opportunities but tell us. Why is Trump important to you and what has he done to help you. (And please refrain from sending on a search for your previous posts. Do it here and now please.)

I am not for independence. It is useless to achieve freedom without tackling China first.

What Trump did was to upset Chinese leadership through the trade war, and made them panic and had their weakness exposed -- China still needs trade, and the trade war effectively rendered them impotent.

Trump very much did the same to the establishment around the world. The United States itself, the United Kingdom, France, Iran, etc. Of course, it is naive to say the changes made from his policies are good (for example I am against his Middle East policies), but without such a stir up, we wouldn't have found that the so-called almighty people are indeed beatable.

Last but not least: If Bernie Sanders, Nancy Pelosi or Joe Biden could achieve the same thing I do not mind having Trump and Pence removed and locked up. However, they look too morally upright to do the necessary dirty work, and besides Democratic Party philosophy has always been rapprochement. It would work if China is led by some more benevolent administration (like Hu Jintao), but definitely not the current administration, who are eager to regain their "past glories" (that is some 1300 years ago) and are ruthless in achieving this.

[Drlee]

Very interesting take. I will have to think about it for awhile.

My first impression is that the average Chinese citizen does not see their position as diminished but maybe you are right. Do you actually believe that Chinese people are inspired toward democracy by Trump's trade actions?

[Patrickov]

Very interesting take. I will have to think about it for awhile.

My first impression is that the average Chinese citizen does not see their position as diminished but maybe you are right.

Do you actually believe that Chinese people are inspired toward democracy by Trump's trade actions?

No. What I have said is more or less confined to some Hongkongers and Taiwanese.

Tackling China will mean changing the people too -- they need to learn sensitivity and responsibility, under a more sensible and responsible administration -- in some sense the Chinese administration had been incompetent for decades if not centuries. This can be tough work that may span another century.

[Hindsite]

Another Trump lie is when he said no one was hurt during the Iran missile attack.

That is not true. The President repeated what the commanders in the field reported. That was that there were no casualties or injuries and everyone was okay. It was not until a week or so later that some evidence of concussions were suspected.

Pentagon: 11 U.S. Troops Flown out of Iraq with Concussion Symptoms After Iranian Attack
17 Jan 2020

“While no U.S. service members were killed in the Jan. 8 Iranian attack on Al Asad Air base, several were treated for concussion symptoms from the blast and are still being assessed,” Captain Bill Urban, a spokesman Central Command, told reporters in a statement Thursday. “As a standard procedure, all personnel in the vicinity of a blast are screened for traumatic brain injury, and if deemed appropriate are transported to a higher level of care.”

Concussions are injuries that typically arise from brute force to the head or violent shaking; those affected by the missile attacks were likely close enough to be impacted by the force of the missile if not the ensuring fire.

“Some concussions cause you to lose consciousness, but most do not. It’s possible to have a concussion and not realize it,” according to the Mayo Clinic, which adds that most who suffer concussions survive. The degree of severity of a concussion can vary widely, affected by the impact generating it as well as personal details like the patient’s history or if they have previously suffered concussions already.

https://www.breitbart.com/middle-east/2 ... -injuries/

[SpecialOlympian]

You don't save democracy by killing it.

That's what Republicans do.

Democratic principals are antithetical to GOP goals. While both parties practice some form of voter suppression, the GOP's efforts are on steroids. Their primary positions of destroying the social safety net, giving the rich more money, and destroying worker's rights are unpopular and unsupported by the majority of the population. They can only achieve these goals through dog whistle/outright racism (Reagan's welfare queens), condemning the poor (I thought Tort law was just for ambulance chasing scumbags until a UPS driver permanently crippled me!), and by ensuring that poor people can not vote (one office in Sauk City, WI only registers people the fifth Wednesday of each month, meaning there are only 5 days a year people can register there).

They don't even believe in meritocracy, preferring to let the person who has raped the most children determine the direction of the party. This is known as the Hastert rule.

[blackjack21]

Is this trial going to be able to oust Trump from office?

No. Ousting Trump requires a 2/3 vote in the United States Senate. There isn't the political will. The election is only 10 months away. It's pointless.

Because I think Trump is so power hungry and narcissistic that he is capable of just coming up with schemes to declare himself maximum leader for life and stay in office forever.

Not going to happen. He will troll you to that end, though.

He reminds me of some pathological lying abusers without scruples, ethics or morals who became dictators in Latin America and even those were better human beings than Trump has shown himself to be.....so the question is?

How do you figure Trump is worse than Samoza, Noriega, Pinochet, etc? He doesn't even kill his political adversaries like the Clintons have done.

Is this trial going to oust him? Yes or no?

Not a chance.

I think it is going to be failed attempt and the elections are going to be close and tight yet again and his moves will be to sail into another four years and solidify his power and go into a bloody and costly war and he will profit and the American Republic turned Empire is going to go down the tubes fiscally, socially, morally and spiritually.

He'll be more like Reagan and avoid using US troops.

This trial is a political sham.

It was pointless. The TV ratings for this are half what the Kavanaugh hearings were. People are completely bored with it.

He will emerge from it stronger than he has ever been, very likely to be reelected and facing a demoralized enemy. He will immediately begin his "exonerated" stadium tour to rally his base.

Exactly, and he's been currying favor with evangelicals, pro-lifers, pro gun groups, etc. They will ALL be voting for him with enthusiasm in 2020.

At the end of the day, Mitch McConnell is far more powerful than Trump. Indeed at this moment could, with a few phone calls, tell Mr. Trump, "you're fired".

Which he will never do since he and Trump are remaking the judiciary and with Trump's reelection, quite possibly another two SCOTUS picks.

What Trump did was to upset Chinese leadership through the trade war, and made them panic and had their weakness exposed -- China still needs trade, and the trade war effectively rendered them impotent.

That's what he's done to the US establishment just by winning. They were all set to give us Jeb Bush or Hillary Clinton. They are trying desperately now to find a replacement for Biden. There is no strong neoconservative in the race. However, Trump upset free-riding NATO members, Mexico, China, etc. Like him or hate him, he's consequential.

Democratic principals are antithetical to GOP goals.

The Democrats have made it pretty clear that impeachment is because they don't trust voters to "remove" Trump in 2020. In other words, they oppose the will of the electorate.

destroying worker's rights are unpopular and unsupported by the majority of the population.

Both parties support human trafficking and illegally resident populaces to work without standing to sue for oppression. The Democrats even set up sanctuary cities and states to prevent the federal government from stopping the labor exploitation.

[SpecialOlympian]

OK Boomer.

[Ter]

Ousting Trump requires a 2/3 vote in the United States Senate. There isn't the political will. The election is only 10 months away. It's pointless.

This is the crux of the matter.
All the rest is just babbling and show.

[Rancid]

That is not true.

After the pentagon came and said that there were traumatic brain injuries, your president further brushed it off and said those injuries were not serious... which is a lie.

[late]

OK Boomer.

He speaks for the howling at the Moon extreme Right.

Most Boomers (like me) disagree.

A curious thing, guys like that don't do sources, parrot the current propaganda no matter how stupid it is, and never talk about what they actually do politically.

Which means they do nothing.

I gave $25 today to the gal running against Collins, will do that every month til the election. Prob give some to Warren, and I hope to do a little actual campaigning. Definitely Gideon, and the presidential candidate if they're Progressive.

I have a long history of activism, going back to the Nam protests.

I've also studied history in college. While we have often gotten wacky, there have only been a couple times we got this far off the reservation. In the first instance, we wound up in a civil war, in the second, genocide.

Saying this isn't good is like saying WW2 was unpleasant. We are headed into a dark, dark place, and the country we've had for 2 centuries won't survive.

[Patrickov]

You don't save democracy by killing it.

That's what Republicans do.

It wonders me why stopping the people who are known to be killing democracy is itself killing democracy.

Or put it like this:
1. If the situation is "Damned if I don't, damned if I do", may be "doing it" isn't so bad an idea -- better than waiting for doom.
2. Consider my words as an indicator that some statements I see are overly pessimistic and suggests the speaker is desperate for a working solution.

[Politics_Observer]

@Rancid

After the pentagon came and said that there were traumatic brain injuries, your president further brushed it off and said those injuries were not serious... which is a lie.

The Veterans of Foreign Wars is demanding that Trump apologize. Glad to hear the VFW is standing up for our service members.

[Tainari88]

@Drlee said:

American glory and American hegemony is not a myth. It was a very real thing until not that many years ago. Though you are seeing it through the eyes of a colonist I can assure you the rest of the world is not. Even to this day the US is an extremely powerful economic power (if not the most powerful one) and certainly the most powerful military power. For all of the wry comments and condescending looks from foreign leaders during the Trump administration every one of them has been very careful not to kick sand in Trump's face.

I do see it as a Puerto Rican Drlee and not as you do with your Mayflower founding father roots. I don't identify with that and never will. But, there was a story that I once heard in which one gets to know the value system of an individual and or a whole society with small little acts done to seemingly insignificant places or persons....and in those little unimportant places and peoples you see the true character and value system of the place with a lot of power and wealth. It is very much like in the bible they mention how you treat the least in society is how you treat Jesus. Because that is a true test of where the heart lies or where the value system that guides everything else resides.

If I see men who feel pride in their nation's abuses of power and or wealth and who value that shit above all else? I know that under certain circumstances and conditions they won't choose good values ever.....because they are guided by rotten values and stink bomb principles. Selfish and rotten. In the end? We seek that which reflects our innermost thoughts and feelings in life. If those are about being selfish, superior, loving power and mundane threats of military violence over true democratic principles, inclusiveness and equality? It will lead you down the path of destruction.

I will never in a million years share an identity with the government destroying Puerto Rico. Ever. Why should I? All they have shown themselves to be are hypocritical. callous, nasty, greedy liars and users and abusers, who broke their word when they promised justice and delivered injustice, promised prosperity when they delivered bankruptcy, promised peace and took our young Puerto Ricans and fought wars, and brought war for decades without any kind of remorse.

Being grateful to that fucked up system is not sane behavior Drlee. And I want to remain sane in that crazy insane value system.

[Big Steve-3]

Another Trump lie is when he said no one was hurt during the Iran missile attack.

Initially, that was the case. But some injuries can take a while to manifest.

Do you think Trump intentionally lied about it? For what purpose? If he was the warmonger the left would have us to believe he is, it would actually have made more sense for him to claim casualties from the very beginning.

I wonder if his bullshitting would sway military types to not support him in 2020.

I would probably be considered a "military type" and, given the slate of characters on the left, could certainly see supporting him again.

[late]

It wonders me why stopping the people who are known to be killing democracy is itself killing democracy.

Or put it like this:
1. If the situation is "Damned if I don't, damned if I do", may be "doing it" isn't so bad an idea -- better than waiting for doom.
2. Consider my words as an indicator that some statements I see are overly pessimistic and suggests the speaker is desperate for a working solution.

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.

[jimjam]

The USA has been riding on myth and fumes for a while now....I don't cry for them at all if they are messed up permanently forever. What they have done to many other places in the world is not to shed a tear for their destroyed government. They deserve an incompetent, fumbling, evil government filled with liars and thieves and to be burned out of the power seat. If anyone deserves a loss of position and power it is the USA. For sure.

I have found that the overall sweep of history is quite predictable while the details of history … less so. The "events" of history's sweep are tied together by one unchanging feature: human nature. Human nature tends to operate in a largely predictable fashion where the "strong" will dominate the "weaker" and acquire the wealth of the weak via force/intimidation. While timing is subject to a complex menu of factors, the behavior is very predictable. A short study of history will show how various countries/societies have essentially taken turns at subjugating other countries/regions for the purpose of siphoning off their wealth/power. The British "empire" is one of the best examples but many others have had their turn at the feeding trough. Spain, Holland, France, Portugal have all had their rise and fall in this behavior. America is situated upon, arguably, the most valuable piece of real estate in the world and is following aforementioned formula to a T. To America's credit it has embarked upon various forms of "humanitarian" behavior which, eventually, are pushed aside or used as a cover for exploitation of other societies and been either directly or not so directly responsible for the death and suffering of uncountable thousands. Now that America has entered the downward trajectory of it's period of "empire" they no longer have to pretend humanitarian motives. They sit atop a multi trillion dollar "defense" industry which can be used to intimidate the rest of the world. America's plutocratic ruling class knows this and is resolved to give up it's dominant position only after much kicking and screaming. Impeached President Trump and his Make America Great Again For Dimwits show is symptomatic of this stage in America's decline. Don't hold your breath though folks ….. this will take awhile but ….. it will come to pass. America has already sown the seeds of her own demise. Under Impeached President Trump it has reached the dubious plateau of spending about a trillion dollars per year more than she takes in. Contrary to what Obese Donald tells us (or avoids talking about altogether) two plus two still equals four. America will not be conquered by another country but will economically implode and conquer herself. Obese Donald is the perfect candidate for the job. Just look at his lifetime behavior: Ignore any long term good in exchange for short term "prosperity" based upon borrow, borrow, borrow …… bankruptcy.