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#15061839
@Tainari88

I was thinking of these two models more, but let me preface. Of course there are things about Mexican culture that are far better than American culture. However, when it comes to governance, I would say the American model is superior.

Ultimately, that officer should be getting paid well enough so that he doesn't have to debase his moral character in order to survive. That is the tragedy in the Mexican system.

Consider the effects each system has on the ethical and moral health of the average citizen. In the Mexican model, that police officer is forced into behaving immorally/corrupt because he's paid shit. This hurts him two ways. First, he has now given more power to the corrupt officials above him. They now have leverage on him since he himself is acting corrupt. They can easily dispose of him by doing "anti-corruption" sweeps (this is very common tactic in developing nations, authoritarian nations, and dictatorships). Second, and worse, it fosters a culture where it say's it's ok for everyone to try and shake everyone else down. It's a shit culture to have. It creates a dog eat dog mentality, which works against cooperation and community. It hampers socioeconomic development because it gets everyone to focus on eating each other, rather than working together to lift everyone up. The people that support Trump, want this. Hence my thesis that Trumpist will turn America into Mexico.

On those grounds, I'd argue the American racket is more acceptable since at least it doesn't force average citizens and the police to debase themselves as a personal level. SO not, they are not the same, and I think the American system is less toxic.
#15061841
Crantag wrote:Yes. His comments were after the publication of the TBI injuries. Trump said some guys got headaches.


I'm asking about his initial comments that there were no injuries. I believe those comments were made within hours of the attack.

Why would he intentionally lie about that if, in reality, there were known injuries?
#15061843
Rancid wrote:There's certainly a valid point in here.

That said, I think the American shakedown is easier/nicer for me personally. I can avoid those crazy charges by simply not parking in places I shouldn't. On the off chance I'm hit with a $200 charge, well... I can afford it no problem. It's less stressful to not have to worry about that random police officer on the corner that decides to stop me to take $20 from me when I'm make a left turn.

There's more central control over the racket in the US model versus the Mexican model.


Aha! A great point made. But precisely because the Mexican model is a lot looser you can actually have more personal freedom from the state in many ways in Mexico than you could ever get in the USA. There are advantages to a Third Worldish system. The state is less organized and the Mexican way is personalistic and if you are charming and have fine qualities and are an asset to the nation? You get a lot more out of living in a place with less central control.

Those are one of the reasons I prefer a safe Mexican city like Merida over a very very expensive and very controlled city like Denver. You get a lot of freedom in a place with looser controls. Definitely.
#15061846
Rancid wrote:@Tainari88

I was thinking of these two models more, but let me preface. Of course there are things about Mexican culture that are far better than American culture. However, when it comes to governance, I would say the American model is superior.

Ultimately, that officer should be getting paid well enough so that he doesn't have to debase his moral character in order to survive. That is the tragedy in the Mexican system.

Consider the effects each system has on the ethical and moral health of the average citizen. In the Mexican model, that police officer is forced into behaving immorally/corrupt because he's paid shit. This hurts him two ways. First, he has now given more power to the corrupt officials above him. They now have leverage on him since he himself is acting corrupt. They can easily dispose of him by doing "anti-corruption" sweeps (this is very common tactic in developing nations, authoritarian nations, and dictatorships). Second, and worse, it fosters a culture where it say's it's ok for everyone to try and shake everyone else down. It's a shit culture to have. It creates a dog eat dog mentality, which works against cooperation and community. It hampers socioeconomic development because it gets everyone to focus on eating each other, rather than working together to lift everyone up. The people that support Trump, want this. Hence my thesis that Trumpist will turn America into Mexico.

On those grounds, I'd argue the American racket is more acceptable since at least it doesn't force average citizens and the police to debase themselves as a personal level. SO not, they are not the same, and I think the American system is less toxic.


Personally I lost more money in Colorado with damn parking violations than I ever have driving for months in Merida Rancid. It is much cheaper to drive here in terms of actual parking costs, violations, meters, etc. I also love that they hire old people who need a job to help you park everywhere. You got old Mexican men telling you in Spanish "Puedes darle hacia tras ahora, ya parete ahi...a la izquierda...etc." I jump into a Pemex station and some attendant gasses up the car for me checks my tires, wipes my windshield, checks my tire pressure and treats me well and I don't have to touch that dirty gas pump and deal with that at all. They are all unionized and get full salaries at retirement. Yes there is corruption....but the Mexicans come up with schemes to keep old unemployable people employed, It is inefficient and it is not about maximizing profit. But it is their system. They use a lot of labor for everything....washing clothes, making food items, attendants for everything, while buying dishes, in parking lots, at libraries. All of them employ tons of people all the time...and in supermarkets you get tons of help...bagging groceries, unloading items, getting drinkable water, setting things up, and I even got a custom shoemaker making me shoes to my specifications for $15 bucks.

I get my clothes made by a tailor or seamstress according to my design for peanuts. In the states you can't go and ask for custom tailoring and custom one of kind shit without spending a fortune. They don't change that....I ask them why...they say the same thing, Ït is traditional. It is nicer. I like real humans coping with my situation. I don't like efficiency I like attention and art more.

Those are their values Rancid.
#15061847
Rancid wrote:After the pentagon came and said that there were traumatic brain injuries, your president further brushed it off and said those injuries were not serious... which is a lie.

At least I provided a reference for my statement. You have provided nothing but your own opinion.
#15061848
If the Republican Senate continues to keep its ears closed and its head in the Trump sand, then let the House call a new emergency impeachment inquiry and subpoena John Bolton and let him testify to the House about Trump's corrupt quid pro quo.

Then impeach Trump again for his Twitter perjuries denying the quid pro quo.

Then send another impeachment to the Senate with Bolton's smoking gun.

Nothing says lawlessness like the modern Republican Party.
#15061851
Indy wrote:I'm asking about his initial comments that there were no injuries. I believe those comments were made within hours of the attack.

Why would he intentionally lie about that if, in reality, there were known injuries?

Maybe to save face?

Are you aware that the US Embassy in Baghdad was struck by rockets today?

CNN wrote:Three rockets struck the US Embassy in Baghdad on Sunday, a US official told CNN.
The official said one person was injured in the attack, but that the injury was minor and the individual had since returned to duty.
A State Department spokesperson said Sunday evening that they "are aware of reports of rockets landing in the International Zone," but did not address the US embassy itself. The State Department did not respond to a query as to whether any embassy employees were injured.
#15061853
jimjam wrote:If the Republican Senate continues to keep its ears closed and its head in the Trump sand, then let the House call a new emergency impeachment inquiry and subpoena John Bolton and let him testify to the House about Trump's corrupt quid pro quo.

Then impeach Trump again for his Twitter perjuries denying the quid pro quo.

Then send another impeachment to the Senate with Bolton's smoking gun.

Nothing says lawlessness like the modern Republican Party.


Can they get the pig of President 45 out?

They got a failed system that they did not rectify jimjam. In 2000 they had a chance to change the electoral college. It has failed to be a good system a couple of times now but nothing is happening to change that bad system.

It is as Drlee has stated. The senate is a bad set up for democracy. Some Wyoming voter is equal in influence to 68 Californians. Something aint working right my man jimjam. You will continue to get a bad result unless you got some extreme pressure going down on the system. Unless the American complacency syndrome is killed? You won't get any real changes.

@Crantag who knows if the prez 45 freak is gonna start a war to create some kind of police state and lockdown all kinds of shit?

That man is capable. Is he so stupid as to start an all out feud with Iran? Who knows. El estupido es capaz.
#15061859
IMHO electoral college and the senate systems make politicians think twice before neglecting underdeveloped areas. The Democrats had only themselves to blame for focusing only on cities and more progressive population. Had I been a countryside dweller I probably would have voted Trump to make them suffer too.

There are always wicked people, as can be seen on PoFo. Either make them feel accepted or trump them. There is no third way.
#15061868
Tainari88 wrote:Can they get the pig of President 45 out? [/quite]
I hope not until after the 2024 election.


The electoral college is part of our Constitution. To change that will require an amendment that will require 2/3 vote, as I understand it. I personally like the electoral college system. I also like President Trump. Don't forget that Barrack Obama also got elected under the same system as did all other Presidents.
HalleluYah
#15061870
Hindsite wrote:The electoral college is part of our Constitution. To change that will require an amendment that will require 2/3 vote, as I understand it. I personally like the electoral college system. I also like President Trump.


Popular votes should be the best system. The president who gets the same amount of campaign money as all the candidates and free debates with equal time. Process of fair elimination and no gerrymandering, etc and not about some crap where it tilts things to wealthy people with smaller amounts of votes but who wind up taking over according to some form of bullshit. Just say you don't believe in popular votes and the rest of the world can get rid of the USA as the democracy to follow. It is ridiculous to want to have others imitate a defective system in which the majority of citizens voting doesn't get the candidate with the most votes in to the position. That is a lot of bullshit. It doesn't convince.
#15061875
Tainari88 wrote:Popular votes should be the best system. The president who gets the same amount of campaign money as all the candidates and free debates with equal time. Process of fair elimination and no gerrymandering, etc and not about some crap where it tilts things to wealthy people with smaller amounts of votes but who wind up taking over according to some form of bullshit. Just say you don't believe in popular votes and the rest of the world can get rid of the USA as the democracy to follow. It is ridiculous to want to have others imitate a defective system in which the majority of citizens voting doesn't get the candidate with the most votes in to the position. That is a lot of bullshit. It doesn't convince.

It is like Patrickov stated and it is the best system considering we have 50 states of various sizes and population. Sometimes the people elect someone that is not popular with everyone, but that is why we have re-elections. The President must remain popular with the people in more states to get reelected. That way the large states can't continue to rule over the people in smaller states very easily without considering their needs and desires. This system seems to have worked very well for over 200 years.
#15061876
Tainari88 wrote:Popular votes should be the best system. The president who gets the same amount of campaign money as all the candidates and free debates with equal time. Process of fair elimination and no gerrymandering, etc and not about some crap where it tilts things to wealthy people with smaller amounts of votes but who wind up taking over according to some form of bullshit. Just say you don't believe in popular votes and the rest of the world can get rid of the USA as the democracy to follow. It is ridiculous to want to have others imitate a defective system in which the majority of citizens voting doesn't get the candidate with the most votes in to the position. That is a lot of bullshit. It doesn't convince.


To be fair, the senate and electoral college system are both not subject to gerrymandering. State boundaries are not to be changed regardless of population change, so at least parties cannot have their senators changed by changing state boundaries. For the electoral college, I think it will be better if the votes are split according to the proportion of votes got be candidates in that particular state, but otherwise I do not think it is as bad as many believe.

In some sense, resorting to popular vote can also be a form of gerrymandering. The Hong Kong Legislative Council changed from first past the post to PR in 1998, but the objective was to allow pro-Beijing parties gain more seats. The real undemocratic part -- functional constituencies, was only changed (slightly) once in 2011.
#15061926
Crantag wrote:Maybe to save face?


I don't see how.

If he was immediately made aware of injuries, but said there were none, there's not a single thing about that which would help him save face, considering the truth would come out.

Do you believe he knew about injuries but lied about them?

Are you aware that the US Embassy in Baghdad was struck by rockets today?


No, but I just crawled out of bed.

What does that have to do with what we're discussing, though? Has Trump claimed there have been no injuries?
#15062109
Did the president lie? We need to get to the bottom of this great mystery. The mystery of whether or not the president would lie.

Rancid wrote:The US is slowly turning into a developing country. YOu have an elite class that is doing very well, while the rest get poorer and poorer. This has been playing out since about the 70s given that real wages have continued to drop, and the income gap has continued to grow. Voting for more people that are like Trump will accelerate this process.

The irony is, Trump and his supporters are trying to turn the US into Mexico in terms of how the government operates.


It's all worth it to own the libs. Suck it, libs.
#15062164
SpecialOlympian wrote:Did the president lie? We need to get to the bottom of this great mystery. The mystery of whether or not the president would lie.

It's all worth it to own the libs. Suck it, libs.

WHY WE SUCK

When you get down to it, all Liberal criticism of Conservatives comes down to "YOU SUCK!"
#15062166
jimjam wrote:...then let the House call a new emergency impeachment inquiry and subpoena John Bolton and let him testify to the House about Trump's corrupt quid pro quo.

The only thing stopping Democrats from holding hearings in the House right now is their own laziness.

jimjam wrote:Then impeach Trump again for his Twitter perjuries denying the quid pro quo.

Twitter perjuries? Are you serious? Nobody is under oath posting anything on Twitter.

Tainari88 wrote:In 2000 they had a chance to change the electoral college.

It takes two thirds of both the House and the Senate to propose a constitutional amendment and 3/4ths of the states to ratify it. It's even harder to do that than impeach a president.

Tainari88 wrote:The senate is a bad set up for democracy.

It's not set up as a democracy. It is set up as a Republic.

Hindsite wrote: To change that will require an amendment that will require 2/3 vote, as I understand it.

It's much harder than that. It's two thirds vote in both Houses of Congress and 3/4 of the states to ratify. They can also start with governors and then ratify. Ratification is very difficult.
User avatar
By Drlee
#15062218
To be fair, the senate and electoral college system are both not subject to gerrymandering. State boundaries are not to be changed regardless of population change, so at least parties cannot have their senators changed by changing state boundaries.


Well sort of. There is a symbiotic relationship between campaigning for house and local elections and the outcome of the presidential one. So when money is spent on congressional districts this helps the national effort and vice versa but technically you are not wrong.
#15062491
Just because I oppose impeachment doesn't mean I think it was a mistake for Democrats. The Neo Cons have been playing footsie with the Democrats since Trump won the Republican nomination in 2016. Even if the Neo Cons never choose to actually try and remove Trump, they don't trust him to put Israel first, so they don't like him to feel too comfortable, too safe. In some ways if Trump does win another term he'll be even more problematic for the Neo Cons. Trump must be never be in a position where he is secure enough to do without the support of the Neo Cons.

So even now Romney is teasing the Democrats, threatening to betray Trump at every turn. In today's partisan environment, the Democrats had to impeach. To not do so would legitimise Trump's presidency. The Democrats liberal base had to be given some red meat (or tofu). Some potential Democratic voters may not like impeachment, but they will accept it as just part of the partisan game. I mean sure the Democrats are insincere , partisan hypocrites, but does any independent voter think the Republicans are not.

Neither side gives a toss about the Constitution, neither side gives a toss about fair play. But both sides must constantly pretend to care oh so deeply about the constitution, precedent and fair play. As I said, some independents and soft Liberals and soft conservatives may be repulsed by these childish games, but this is the two party system. They can like it or a lump it.
Last edited by Rich on 29 Jan 2020 16:20, edited 1 time in total.
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