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By Drlee
#15062227
It looks like, on the brink of Brexit, Boris Johnson is kicking sand in the face of the US on two fronts.

First is the 5G deal he is set to make with China. This despite very serious and completely justifiable lobbying by the US over security concerns.

The second is his bluff and blustering over the diplomatic immunity issue.

The UK needs trade deals very badly right now. You can rest assured that if Boris goes ahead with the Huawei deal Trump is going to extract a heavy price for it. We are not just talking the end of intelligence sharing here but even perhaps difficult trade relations.

The UK exported $110 billion to the US last year. We exported $125 billion to the UK. Care to guess who can afford to push his position?

Trump is not a man to be trifled with over trade. He is looking for ways to look tough and this one is ready-made to let him do it.

I love the UK. Go there whenever I can. In all kindness I would recommend that Johnson pipe down. This is not the time to even allow the threat of a trade war not to mention a diplomatic row.
By late
#15062230
Drlee wrote:
It looks like, on the brink of Brexit, Boris Johnson is kicking sand in the face of the US on two fronts.

First is the 5G deal he is set to make with China. This despite very serious and completely justifiable lobbying by the US over security concerns.

The second is his bluff and blustering over the diplomatic immunity issue.

The UK needs trade deals very badly right now. You can rest assured that if Boris goes ahead with the Huawei deal Trump is going to extract a heavy price for it. We are not just talking the end of intelligence sharing here but even perhaps difficult trade relations.

The UK exported $110 billion to the US last year. We exported $125 billion to the UK. Care to guess who can afford to push his position?

Trump is not a man to be trifled with over trade. He is looking for ways to look tough and this one is ready-made to let him do it.

I love the UK. Go there whenever I can. In all kindness I would recommend that Johnson pipe down. This is not the time to even allow the threat of a trade war not to mention a diplomatic row.



Umm, no.

You won't find a lot of countries taking our side over 5G.

We don't like it because we can't break it, or build in a back door. So listening to Angela Merkel talk on the phone, those days of spying on everybody are about to end. Which is also why Boris, and a lot of others, like it.

Trump has an election coming up, and he's in deep doo doo. You never know what that psycho will do, but it would be massively unwise right now to start yet another trade war.
By Patrickov
#15062233
late wrote:Umm, no.

You won't find a lot of countries taking our side over 5G.

We don't like it because we can't break it, or build in a back door.


Seriously any country would build a back door with a technology they can. I rather have the United States eavesdropping me than have China doing so. The latter have a rather low threshold on deciding what kind of dissident activities warrant harassment or even persecution.
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By Drlee
#15062235
We don't like it because we can't break it, or build in a back door. So listening to Angela Merkel talk on the phone, those days of spying on everybody are about to end. Which is also why Boris, and a lot of others, like it.


Boris, preferring to have the Chinese brokering intelligence information rather than the UK's most reliable intelligence partner. :roll:
Trump has an election coming up, and he's in deep doo doo. You never know what that psycho will do, but it would be massively unwise right now to start yet another trade war.


I disagree. I think that trade is Trump's long suit. Taking on the UK over an intelligence related trade issue would be advantageous for him. It would play very well with his base and resonate with our more conservative independents.

One thing that Trump has done with regard to the impeachment kerfuffle is to stay looking strong and defiant. He is going to look for every opportunity to do it.
By late
#15062238
Patrickov wrote:
Seriously any country would build a back door with a technology they can. I rather have the United States eavesdropping me than have China doing so. The latter have a rather low threshold on deciding what kind of dissident activities warrant harassment or even persecution.



That's a potentially good point. I hadn't looked at this closely, and there is more here than I realised.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concerns_over_Chinese_involvement_in_5G_wireless_networks
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By noemon
#15062296
I spoke to both Democrats & Republicans working in the state department while in the US and they were all against the Huawei deal and incredibly concerned about the UK's decision.

Trump haters were all against the Huawei deal. The UK has made this decision and despite very heavy lobbying by the US and Trump personally, the UK is clearly not moving its position.
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By JohnRawls
#15062301
Drlee wrote:It looks like, on the brink of Brexit, Boris Johnson is kicking sand in the face of the US on two fronts.

First is the 5G deal he is set to make with China. This despite very serious and completely justifiable lobbying by the US over security concerns.

The second is his bluff and blustering over the diplomatic immunity issue.

The UK needs trade deals very badly right now. You can rest assured that if Boris goes ahead with the Huawei deal Trump is going to extract a heavy price for it. We are not just talking the end of intelligence sharing here but even perhaps difficult trade relations.

The UK exported $110 billion to the US last year. We exported $125 billion to the UK. Care to guess who can afford to push his position?

Trump is not a man to be trifled with over trade. He is looking for ways to look tough and this one is ready-made to let him do it.

I love the UK. Go there whenever I can. In all kindness I would recommend that Johnson pipe down. This is not the time to even allow the threat of a trade war not to mention a diplomatic row.


Honestly it is stupid for Europe not to ban Huawei, i am not talking about just the UK here. This doesn't come down to only security reasons etc but also to a pure economic calculus. If Huawei is banned then we will buy: Nokia, Erikson, Cisco, Motorola, IBM. Those are US and European companies....
By Atlantis
#15062322
Boris is a smart guy, he can smell blood a mile against the wind. He knows that Trump is dead and that China is important for the UK's economic future.

The UK was the first country to go against US demands for boycotting the Chinese-led Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank AIIB. The Brits were among the first to join the bank.

Anyways, pissing Trump against the leg will give you bonus points in about every European country at this point in time. It's a win-win. :lol:
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By Drlee
#15062352
Boris is a smart guy, he can smell blood a mile against the wind. He knows that Trump is dead and that China is important for the UK's economic future.


China is important to the UK but not as important as the US and nowhere as quickly. Also note that this is not about Trump in the US. Read Neoman's post. Both sides are against this deal.
The UK was the first country to go against US demands for boycotting the Chinese-led Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank AIIB. The Brits were among the first to join the bank.


I hope that works out for them. Pissing off the US when you are about to alienate the rest of Europe sounds like a magnificent idea. :roll:

Anyways, pissing Trump against the leg will give you bonus points in about every European country at this point in time. It's a win-win.


I don't believe this is true at the leadership level. Trump is unpredictable and very much likely to be here for five more years. I hope they are smart enough to do this calculation:

The US is the largest economy in the world. The leader of that country is a loose canon. If you think he is bad now how about after he is reelected? You ain't seen nothin' yet as we say.
By Atlantis
#15062368
Drlee wrote: You ain't seen nothin' yet as we say.


Is that a threat or a promise?

Anyways, Trump is destructive, not least for the future of the planet. Even Americans should be concerned about that.
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By Drlee
#15062409
Anyways, Trump is destructive, not least for the future of the planet. Even Americans should be concerned about that.


Many are. Now back to the subject at hand.
By Rugoz
#15062420
Drlee wrote:First is the 5G deal he is set to make with China. This despite very serious and completely justifiable lobbying by the US over security concerns.


"Completely justifiable" according to whom? Why is it suddenly seen as a huge issue while 4g was ok?

It's a limited deal either way:

"The Chinese company will be excluded from "security critical" areas of Britain's networks — those that identify customers or make decisions about routing traffic. But it will be able to supply British mobile operators, including Vodafone (VOD), BT (BTGOF) and Three, with less sensitive products such as radio technology and base stations, so long as its market share is limited to 35%."

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/01/28/tech ... index.html
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By Drlee
#15062421
"The Chinese company will be excluded from "security critical" areas of Britain's networks — those that identify customers or make decisions about routing traffic. But it will be able to supply British mobile operators, including Vodafone (VOD), BT (BTGOF) and Three, with less sensitive products such as radio technology and base stations, so long as its market share is limited to 35%."


Sorry. I am not believing for a moment that they are not going to exploit this for intelligence purposes.

But you go ahead and enjoy your new phones and your new best friend. I mean why would you want to give the work to your traditional friends? Of course this business deal is worth seriously harming US/UK relations.

The US president has been misbehaving lately. No doubt about it. But if you take an objective look at it he has done nothing so abjectly stupid as Brexit nor is our government so dysfunctional that it takes years to implement the stupid plan.

The EU gave you all plenty of time to come to your senses. It failed. But hey. You are, after all, an island. You don't really need long standing friendships when the world is filled with totalitarian governments like China that you can exploit. Just be sure it is you who is doing the exploiting.
By Rugoz
#15062429
Drlee wrote:Sorry. I am not believing for a moment that they are not going to exploit this for intelligence purposes..


And I don't believe it can be exploited on a significant scale without it being noticed. So it's more a matter of being able to turn off Huawei hardware just in case. Also, end-to-end encryption will still work (in particular with the exclusion of security critical areas) and is used for anything of importance either way.

Drlee wrote:Of course this business deal is worth seriously harming US/UK relations.


Well you cannot give in to all of Trump's bullying. Trump might not even care so much about this one. P.S. I'm not British.
By Atlantis
#15062472
Trump is presiding over 'the biggest strategic defeat for the US since the early days of WW2' as European allies ignore his threats and back Huawei

- Donald Trump's attempts to pressure European allies into dropping their ties with Chinese telecoms company Huawei have failed.

- European countries look set to join the United Kingdom in approving the company's continued role in the development of the 5G network on the continent.

- Former House of Representatives Speaker Newt Gingrich labelled Trump's failure "the biggest strategic defeat for the US since the early days of WW2."

- Chris Murphy, a Democrat senator who sits on the committee on foreign relations, said: 'Not even our closest ally Britain, with a Trump soulmate in Downing Street, listens to us anymore.'

Donald Trump's European allies plan to ignore his threats and back Huawei's involvement in the development of 5G on the continent.

UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson on Tuesday approved the Chinese telecoms company's involvement in the 5G network in the country.

The decision, which was taken despite multiple threats by Trump and his allies to withdraw security co-operation and impose trade penalties, is set to trigger a wave of similar decisions by other European leaders, Politico reported.

The development triggered one prominent Republican on Wednesday to label Trump's failure "the biggest strategic defeat for the United States since the early days of World War Two."

With European allies also drawing ranks against Trump's actions against Iran, the president is looking increasingly isolated on the world stage.

Trump had ordered his European allies to impose a blanket ban on the company's involvement.

However, Johnson's decision provides cover for other European countries — many of whom are minded to allow Huawei to help build their own 5G networks — to close ranks and defy Trump themselves.

European countries are reportedly set to copy the UK's new security policies, which will see Huawei granted a limited role while being restricted from sensitive sites such as nuclear power stations.

The EU has drawn up recommendations for member states, which stop short of banning Huawei.

"The EU's approach was inspired by the U.K. one," one EU diplomat told Politico, adding that Trump's call for a blanket ban "won't be the preferred choice for most [European] countries."

Individual countries across the continent are set to follow the UK's lead and allow Huawei a role in their future 5G networks, despite being on the end of intensive lobbying efforts from the Trump administration.

Germany, Poland and the Netherlands are leaning towards allowing Huawei a role in future telecoms networks, while the French government confirmed in November it was "not following the position of the United States" and refused to exclude Huawei from bidding for its 5G network.

Newt Gingrich, a former Speaker of the US House of Representatives, branded the development "the biggest strategic defeat for the United States since the early days of World War Two."

"I think people have got to wake up and understand this is a huge failure of our government bureaucracies to respond to a challenge we have seen coming," he told the BBC.

Democrat Senator Chris Murphy, who sits on the committee on foreign relations tweeted that "America has never been weaker."

"We have never had less influence. Not even our closest ally Britain, with a Trump soulmate in Downing Street, listens to us anymore."

Liz Cheney, the third highest-ranking Republican in the House of Representatives, led criticism from within the President's own party.

"Tragic to see our closest ally, a nation Ronald Reagan once called 'incandescent with courage', turn away from our alliance and the cause of freedom," she tweeted.

Europe's defiance of Trump over Huawei echoes a pattern seen after the death of Iranian general Qassem Solemani, who was assassinated in January on Trump's orders.

Then, too, European leaders adopted a strikingly similar tone in their reactions, refusing to endorse Trump explicitly and warning against escalation in the Middle East.

Both Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, and Ben Wallace, the UK's defence secretary, also openly called into question the strength of the relationship between their own countries and the US in the weeks that followed.


The developments show that, while the US continues to exert enormous lobbying power over policy in Europe, solidarity across the continent in the face of Washington's lobbying efforts is acting as an increasingly powerful corrective.


What on Earth do the Yanks expect?

They have put Europe in danger with endless expansionist wars. They continue to stir up trouble in Europe's periphery by unilaterally cancelling the Iran deal and unilaterally intervening in the Palestine conflict. They keep on imposing sanctions on Europe and continually threaten Europe. Trump's unilateral decision to exit the INF arms limitation agreement has put Europe in danger. Trump's unilateral decision to exit the climate agreement puts the planet in danger. They undermine democracy, the rule of law and human rights worldwide.

Enough is enough.
By ness31
#15062487
And I do appreciate how this is all happening against the backdrop of a virus emanating from China.
I feel it’s time to tweak the whole “when the US sneezes, the rest of the world catches a cold” meme.
How about ...hmm *rubs chin* “When China has a virus the rest of the world gets 5G”?
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By AFAIK
#15062566
BoJo just won a massive majority in parliament and can sit on it for 5 years or call early elections if it's advantageous. Trump is in an election year with a fixed date and no policy achievements. Obamacare is still operating, wars are still ongoing, he's built 0 inches of wall, and locked up none of his opponents.

JohnRawls wrote:Honestly it is stupid for Europe not to ban Huawei, i am not talking about just the UK here. This doesn't come down to only security reasons etc but also to a pure economic calculus. If Huawei is banned then we will buy: Nokia, Erikson, Cisco, Motorola, IBM. Those are US and European companies....

You underestimate how cheap and austericidal Euro gov'ts are.

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