Most Jews have little genetic link to ancient Israel. - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15059563
European and American Jews who colonized part of the Middle East have very little claim to “Israeli” land based on actual lineage, as noted by this Ancestry.com blog entry:

I took the DNA test and it came back as British Isles, and Eastern European Jewish and some minor ant of something, but nothing from Israel or the Middle East. How can I be a Jew with no connection to where all Jews originate from?

A reply noted:

The markers of this mixed European-Middle Eastern population [Ashkenazi Jews] are different (although with slight overlap) than those associated with populations that have remained in the Middle East.

As most Jewish ancestry searches reach a dead end in Europe, that “slight overlap” is a rather tenuous link. Most Jews from America and Europe can claim to be from the Tribe of Israel as much as Elizabeth Warren can claim to be a Native American, and maybe less so.

https://blogs.ancestry.com/ancestry/2017/07/21/is-ancestrydna-helpful-for-jewish-genealogy/
#15059615
To me this is mainly proof that the Ashkenazi Jews did "fuck around" in Europe. I mean ultimately they do have some obvious semetic DNA traits, like a big nose and most of them still have a long face, dark hair and eyes. But yeah they did mess around in Europe and mixed in with the local populations. Fucked outside of the religion and had European converts(including the Kazars) and whatnot. Totally lost the classical semetic mediterranian olive skin tones. Also the Diaspora existed much earlier than 70AD and so alot of these Ashkenazi Jews would just have to go maybe at least 2300 years back before they hit the holy land(and at that point the genetics would only show European, even if they did have ancient Israelite ancestry).

I would like to see the split between the Jewish sub racial categories. I have a theory Sephardic Jews are the most closely related to the ancient Jews (of Jesus time) because they are the only group that stayed in the Mediterranean sea region(apart from the Jewish communities which remained in close proximity to the "promised land").

Your example was a highly European Ashkenazi Jew. I would love to see a Sephardic breakdown or a breakdown of a Jew who's family "mostly stayed in the holy land". Or a Mizrahi test too.
#15059621
colliric wrote:Your example was a highly European Ashkenazi Jew. I would love to see a Sephardic breakdown or a breakdown of a Jew who's family "mostly stayed in the holy land". Or a Mizrahi test too.

Jewish supremacist racists and their Gentile toadies love to use the misnomers "anti-Semitism" and "Anti-Semitic" for a number of reasons, but one is that Sephardic Jews used to be referred to as Semitic Jews. Racist prejudice amongst Ashkenazi not only towards their Gentile neighbours, but also towards the so called Semitic Jews was endemic. Particularly amongst the most educated and elitist Ashkenazi, the Semitic Jews were often seen as "Deplorables" clinging to their backward outdated religious and cultural Semitic practices. Semitic Jews were aware of this and had a tendency to resent it. In fact attitudes of Semitic Jews to Askenazi were often remarkably similar to the attitudes of many moderately anti-Jewish Gentiles.

This resentment by Semitic Jews lingers to do this day, its just force of circumstance in Israel, surrounded by more pressing Muslim enemies forces them to bite their tongues. Anyway this is one reason why Jewish supremacists are so keen to enforce use of the misnomer of anti Semitism, in order to forget this inconvenient history.

Now let me point out, there is no special evil in this. It is entirely normal for Jewish opinion formers to wish to manipulate the public discourse to the advantage of their identity group, with scant concern for the truth. No this has been going on for the last 5000 years, ever since the emergence of multi ethnic, multilingual, polities. No in the same way there was nothing evil about German militarism, they just happened to be good at it. There is nothing evil about Ashkenazi competition in the struggle of identity politics and identity ideological struggle. they just happen to be good at it.
#15059694
At least two-thirds of Ashkenazi maternal lineages have a European ancestry. The best estimate is to assign ~81% of Ashkenazi lineages to a European source, ~8% to the Near East and ~1% further to the east in Asia, with ~10% remaining ambiguous. Paternal Y-DNA hg R-M17 (R1a) in Ashkenazi Jews (∼45%) could also represent gene flow from Eastern European populations. Haplogroup R-M17 (R1a) is present at considerable frequencies in various Eastern European populations, but is absent or found only at very low frequencies in Central and West Asians and in Middle Easterners. The frequency of haplogroup R1b in the Ashkenazim population is similar to the frequency of R1b in Middle Eastern populations. Because haplogroups R-M17 (R1a) and R-P25 (R1b) are present in non-Ashkenazi Jewish populations (4% and 10%, respectively) and in non-Jewish Near Eastern populations (7% and 11%, respectively), it is likely that they were also present at low frequency (~10%) in the AJ (Ashkenazi Jewish) founding population. Furthermore, the most common Y-DNA AJ haplogroup is J, which accounts to ~40% of the AJ gene pool. Therefore, the majority of AJ Y-DNA haplogroups can be traced back to Palestine, from which a sex-biased migration pattern can be observed.

Abstract
The origins of Ashkenazi Jews remain highly controversial. Like Judaism, mitochondrial DNA is passed along the maternal line. Its variation in the Ashkenazim is highly distinctive, with four major and numerous minor founders. However, due to their rarity in the general population, these founders have been difficult to trace to a source. Here we show that all four major founders, ~40% of Ashkenazi mtDNA variation, have ancestry in prehistoric Europe, rather than the Near East or Caucasus. Furthermore, most of the remaining minor founders share a similar deep European ancestry. Thus the great majority of Ashkenazi maternal lineages were not brought from the Levant, as commonly supposed, nor recruited in the Caucasus, as sometimes suggested, but assimilated within Europe. These results point to a significant role for the conversion of women in the formation of Ashkenazi communities, and provide the foundation for a detailed reconstruction of Ashkenazi genealogical history.
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3543
#15060810
You people need to understand that Jewdaism is a religion, not a race! Nobody cares where the modern Jews come from. They may as well be from another planet, it is irrelevant.

People do become Jews! There are Jews from all over the world from different ethnic groups and different races.

Jews do not need to have any ethnic attachment to Israel, but all Jews do have a cultural attachment to Israel. That is how it has always been and how it should be.
#15060815
Metoo wrote:You people need to understand that Jewdaism is a religion, not a race! Nobody cares where the modern Jews come from. They may as well be from another planet, it is irrelevant.

People do become Jews! There are Jews from all over the world from different ethnic groups and different races.

Jews do not need to have any ethnic attachment to Israel, but all Jews do have a cultural attachment to Israel. That is how it has always been and how it should be.


Known not to practice the religion:
Image

..... Still Jewish, ethnically. Good on him.

Nobody cares where the modern Jews come from


Only a Jewish person would say that. Christians do care since it's part of their religion to care where modern Jews come from since they believe in a Jewish Rabbi and believe he is the Messiah.

Also they need to understand the Jewish psychology that leads to this thinking since the Author of the Book of Revelations expressed this psychology when he calls Jews which don't believe in the "blood sacrifice" the name "Fake Jews" and "synagogue of Satan". So they need to explore why Religious Jews exhibit this psychology, while knowing the rest of the world considers Ethnic Jews as Jewish. The author is saying "Jews that don't practice Second Temple Period Judaism are not real Jews at all". So it is of interest to Christians to explore this scientifically.

I was absolutely disgusted when I came across a Jewish Person that called Epstein, Weinstein and Weiner "excommunicated from being Jewish". You do realise how bad that looks to outsiders right? You can't "excommunicate" a person from their ethnic background. Harvey Weinstein IS JEWISH.
#15062640
Metoo wrote:You people need to understand that Jewdaism is a religion, not a race! Nobody cares where the modern Jews come from. They may as well be from another planet, it is irrelevant.

People do become Jews! There are Jews from all over the world from different ethnic groups and different races.

Jews do not need to have any ethnic attachment to Israel, but all Jews do have a cultural attachment to Israel. That is how it has always been and how it should be.


Apparently, your argument didn’t hold up in Israel:

Israeli High Court Allows DNA Testing to Prove Judaism

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israeli-high-court-allows-dna-testing-to-prove-judaism-1.8439615
#15063096
Robert Urbanek wrote:Apparently, your argument didn’t hold up in Israel:

Israeli High Court Allows DNA Testing to Prove Judaism

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israeli-high-court-allows-dna-testing-to-prove-judaism-1.8439615


Did you read the original article? I bet you did not.

Because if you did, you'd see that the court allowed the DNA testing on a technicality, NOT on a substance of the matter. It is very clear that the legal intent on the part of the court is to bait the Rabbinate into an attempt to define 'Who is a Jew', - the question that has been hanging in the air for the past 200 years or the past 2000 years depending on who you ask.

The courts, not just in Israel, but in the US as well, habitually do that, because it is in the public interest.

Clearly, a person who converted to Judaism may not have the genetic markers of someone who traces his/her linage to the Jews originating in Judea. The court is well aware of that. You must venture into the internal politics of the Rabbinate versus the State in order to understand the real issues behind the ruling.

This ruling changes absolutely nothing at this time, with the Law of Return being enforced in the same way today as it was many years ago.

To wit, this is not as simple as you make it out to be and Haaretz is a sophisticated paper that does not print nonsense.
#15063110
colliric wrote: Christians do care since it's part of their religion to care where modern Jews come from since they believe in a Jewish Rabbi and believe he is the Messiah.


You are not making a logical connection here. As a Christian you may believe in Jesus, who was a Jew, but you have no idea why he was a Jew or what made him a Jew.

It is very clear that you do not know your own religion well enough, because Christian tenets do not address the Jewishness of Jesus, only the place where he came from. Christianity is about the teachings of Jesus, not his origin. Christianity are not concerned with a question 'who is a Jew'.

You, and the people like you, are concerned with a question 'who is a Jew'. Perhaps you need to ponder as to why you are concerned about that, when your own religion is not? This unhealthy interest that you display is at the very core of modern antisemitism. Please think about it...

colliric wrote:So they need to explore why Religious Jews exhibit this psychology, while knowing the rest of the world considers Ethnic Jews as Jewish. The author is saying "Jews that don't practice Second Temple Period Judaism are not real Jews at all". So it is of interest to Christians to explore this scientifically.


You have no idea what you are talking about. The Jews are not concerned with what the World thinks about who is a Jew. There is no such thing as an ethnic jew. Jewish courts rued on that a very long time ago. Certainly religious practices of the Second temple have nothing to do with being or not being a jew!

You need education, please get some, but do not go to your local pastor, take a university course or talk to a local Rabbi who is affiliated with a local university and teaches pear reviewed courses.

You cannot explore affiliation with Judaism scientifically. Nobody can, - it is not possible, Do you even know what is a scientific exploration, what is involved in it?

Anyway, if you can answer who is a 'real Jew' question, then you should write to Rabbinate in Israel with your insights. Believe me, they will find countless problems with any assertion you may make. Good luck!

colliric wrote: I was absolutely disgusted when I came across a Jewish Person that called Epstein, Weinstein and Weiner "excommunicated from being Jewish". You do realise how bad that looks to outsiders right? You can't "excommunicate" a person from their ethnic background. Harvey Weinstein IS JEWISH.


Why do you talk about that? Why don't you find someone who is not a Jew to be disgusted with? There is no shortage of those characters. Worry about them, leave the Jews alone. Too many times over the past 2000 years people like you got disgusted with Jews and that led to a catastrophic consequences. Jews are a tiny minority in the world, with about 18 million in total, but they contribute disproportionately to the world's welfare. The world is infinitely better because the Jews are around. Why don't you write about that for a change we can all use it, OK?
#15063146
The world is infinitely better because the Jews are around. Why don't you write about that for a change we can all use it, OK?


I will.



Greatest book of the 20th century. And this is the best film adaptation still.

Also Jesus was Jewish. Without Jesus we would not have Christianity OR Rabbinic/Talmudic Judaism. Since it developed in response to the rise of Christianity, as well as the historical actions of Jesus in opposing the Sanhedrin.

Also Fiddler on the Roof is one my favourite stage shows.....


Lucky enough to see Topol as Tevye live on stage. The Yiddish production directed by Joel Grey is coming to Melbourne this year... Very tempting to buy a ticket.

All Jews:


Also:


Get this show uncancelled dammit! Two seasons wasn't enough! And bring back Elisheva my favourite character from season 1.
Last edited by colliric on 01 Feb 2020 00:44, edited 1 time in total.
#15063151
Rich wrote:There is nothing evil about Ashkenazi competition in the struggle of identity politics and identity ideological struggle. they just happen to be good at it.


don't hate the player, hate the game.
#15063232
Metoo wrote:You, and the people like you, are concerned with a question 'who is a Jew'. Perhaps you need to ponder as to why you are concerned about that, when your own religion is not? This unhealthy interest that you display is at the very core of modern antisemitism. Please think about it...

Of course we're entitled to investigate who Jews, or particular groups of Jew, or the Israeli state define as Jews. As we're entitled to question who the Klu Klux Klan considered white and who the Nazis considered German or Aryan. We've had 3000 years of quite appalling Jewish racism going back to the genocide of the Caananites. Note some people try and excuse the Jews by claiming that Josiah may have exaggerated this event. Yes Josiah may well have exaggerated events in the tenth to twelfth centuries, but that was because he wanted to justify his own racist, aggressive, war mongering campaign of genocidal expansion. I would suggest that the reason that Hitler has become this personification of evil, while many people don't even seem to have heard of Josiah, is not that Josiah was a nicer person than Hitler, but just that Hitler was a lot more successful militarily.

Judaism (like Islam) was not some universalist religion that got hijacked by evil racist power mongers that had nothing to do with Judaism, its genocidal, exclusivist expansionist racism, packaged up as a religion, full of bullshit lies about the special blessing of the creator of the universe. Now the argument by Liberals was that we should tolerate orthodox Judaism, but not the Klu Klux Klan because Jews were a minority, while White Gentiles were the majority. But in Israel Jews are the majority and they're still carrying on their fundamentally racist ways that we've seen over the last 3000 years. Just because Jews are not actively genociding anyone at the moment, just because Jews haven't really been in position to genocide anyone for most of the last 2000 years doesn't give them a pass on their racism.
#15063320
Christianity are not concerned with a question 'who is a Jew'.


I just want to refute this. Christianity is significantly concerned with the origins of Jesus, and in fact his Genealogy is the very first thing the New Testament opens up with. This is because Christians believe Jesus was the Jewish Messiah and this figure must be strongly connected to King David through the genealogies and according to the Tanakh must be born in the ancestral home of King David.

Yes he was Jewish because he practiced Judaism, but he was also ethnically Jewish because he was of the Tribe of Judah and descended from King David(on his mother's side, and also legally on his adoptive father's side). This is extremely important to Christianity because it is a fundamental tenant of the faith. You can't believe in Christianity without taking an interest in the origins of Jesus and in his Jewishness, because Christians believe Jesus was the Messiah.

Also read this:
https://biblehub.com/drb/romans/2.htm

The question of "Who is a Jew?" is significantly explored in this entire chapter of the book of Romans, as well as the entire Letter to the Hebrews(/Jews), as well as John's famous (and controversial verses) about "fake Jews" + "synagogue of Satan" from Revelations. So you are quite wrong. Paul and John were both Jews.

The book of Acts also briefly brings up this topic when it covers how the disciples decided to now also preach to non-jews.

Perhaps you need to ponder as to why you are concerned about that, when your own religion is not?

Except it is. The Authors of the New Testament were all Jews and bring up the concept of "What is a Jew?" quite frequently as I just pointed out. The first thing that is explicitly stated is Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, is descended from David, and is the King Of The Jews as well as the Lion of the Tribe Of Judah.

You may not agree with the Second Temple Period view that Jews are the ethnic descendants of the Tribe of Judah(+Benjamin) and that Jews which do not commit the Blood Sacrifice are "fake Jews(I.e Heretics)", but deep down inside I know you know your Religion significantly changed with the writing of the Talmud.

Your position is the position of Talmudic Judaism, however Second Temple Period Judaism had different views on what makes a person Jewish. I'm glad you've accepted this fact, since it is moronic to assume your Religion "hasn't changed one iota in 2000 years". No I don't need to go to your Rabbinic Authorities to ask them what a Jew is since we both know they'll give me the Talmudic view that Jews practice Talmudic Judaism....

But we both know to Second Temple Period Jews, you would be considered a heretic to the religion and not Jewish at all since Judaism to them requires a large amount of Animal sacrifice for your sins to take place on Mount Moriah. That's Second Temple Period Judaism. You don't do that so to Second Temple Period Jews you would not be a Jew at all.

Also the Temple Genealogy records existed in the time of Jesus, so Jews knew their "tribal affiliations" and could scientifically prove from their family record they were descended from Judah and/or Benjamin. Herod The Great possibly destroyed all these records so no Jew could prove which tribe they descended from, the Sicarii later totally destroyed the "Hall Of Records" in Jerusalem to wipe out their financial debts in the first Roman-Jewish conflict, the Temple(with its copy of the major records) was burnt to the ground and the Romans destroyed everything else in the entire country. Nothing was left. Either way you look at it the Jews entire ancient administrative, financial and genealogical records were totally wiped out.

This is the main reason you modern Jews place far less emphasis on Ethnicity since no modern Jew can prove his Genealogical tribal affiliation, this inspite of the fact the Messiah, according to your belief system, will be an Ethnic Jew fully directly descended from the line of King David and that will require direct evidence he is descended from David. Of which there will be zip.

According to your belief system.... The Messiah Must Be An Ethnic Jew Of The Davidic Line....
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