[anasawad]

@Pants-of-dog

Present evidence for your claims.

My "claims" are the main topics of every election in the US for the past decade and a half and effectively everything everyone discusses in US politics right now.
I don't need to waste time to "prove" the existence of an issue that anyone who watches US news would've heard about it daily for the past decade.

You are the one who is going against the mainstream reasoning that these are complex issues that have various factors and saying that it's mainly because of racism.

So go ahead, provide evidence why these problems are caused by racism, and try disproving the fact that all these problems are spread over across racial and ethnic groups.

You can start with one of your claims about unsafe drinking water being because of racism.
Flint is around half black half white, let's see your creativity how this is because of racism.

[Sivad]

Know your roots, your politics, your history and then let it all go and be free. Go for being human.

There is a quote that covers the entire argument. Buenas noches Sivad. It is past my bedtime in Southern Mexico. And I got to go to sleep!

Well, whatever your deal is I don't give a fuck about my roots or my heritage or my ethnos, the only thing I give a fuck about is getting conscious intelligent life out of retard hell. the good news is the whole species is on the verge of obsolescence so all you shitwits can kiss your retarded fucking ethnos goodbye.

[Donna]

I formally issue shallange, Donna!

Broadly speaking, early Holocene warmth was driven by earth’s orbital variations. Precessional forcing culminated 12–10 ka, when total annual insolation was 1Wm2 higher than present at 60
N, and 5 W m2 higher at the pole (Berger and Loutre, 1991). At that time, insolation at 60
N during summer (June) was 10% higher than today, and only slightly lower during winter (December) (Fig. 9). Compared to the increase in summer insolation, radiative forcing by changes in atmospheric trace-gas concentrations was minor during the early Holocene. CO2 attained concentrations near its pre-industrial level by about 11 ka and remained constant during the early Holocene (Indermuhle et al., 2000 . ), while CH4 decreased slightly (Blunier et al., 1995) (Fig. 9). In contrast, as the climate warmed, the water-vapor content of the atmosphere probably increased (e.g., Foley et al., 1994), and the flux of heat and moisture from the tropics to the Arctic probably strengthened, resulting in a positive feedback on warming. As it appears to have done over the latter part of the 20th century (Folland et al., 2001), the pattern of increased atmospheric water vapor probably mirrored that of temperature. Climatic feedbacks of radiative forcing during the early Holocene were spatially variable. The extent of snow and ice cover was reduced and the pattern of vegetation cover was altered. Both impacted the distribution of energy absorbed during the summer, and altered the surficial energy and water balances sufficiently to carry into the fall and winter months. Feedbacks involving the reduction in glacier and sea-ice extent were particularly significant for high-latitude amplification of warming. Vegetated land and open sea have much lower albedo and a higher heat capacity than ice. As ice cover decreased and summer insolation increased, more solar energy was stored in summer and then re-radiated during the winter (e.g., Gildor and Tziperman, 2001). Year round warming was also likely facilitated by the expansion of forests over tundra, further reducing surface albedo and leading to a positive feedback (Foley et al., 1994; Chapin et al., 2000). The positive feedback on temperature by land-surface changes probably had a distinct spatial pattern, with earlier and larger responses occurring in regions where snow cover was low and vegetation was readily converted from steppe or tundra to high shrub or forest, as in Beringia. The distribution of sea ice in response to circulation changes also contributed to the spatial pattern of warming. Simulations of 6 ka climate by GCMs with a dynamical sea-ice routine show a thickening of sea ice in the western Arctic and a thinning in the eastern Arctic (Vavrus, 1999; Vavrus and Harrison, 2003), suggesting a negative feedback on surface-temperature response to insolation forcing.

[...]

The HTM in the western Arctic was forced primarily by insolation changes governed by orbital variations that scaled with latitude. Despite the symmetrical forcing, the HTM occurred earlier in Alaska and northwest Canada, beginning ca 11 ka, than in the Hudson Bay region, where the HTM was delayed until after the final melting of the Laurentide Ice Sheet, ca 7 ka. The HTM in regions strongly influenced by the North Atlantic and Arctic Oceans (Canadian Arctic Islands, Greenland, and Iceland) tended to occur ca 9 ka. The pronounced spatial and temporal asymmetry in the response to symmetrical forcing underscores the roles of land-cover feedbacks and coupled atmospheric–oceanic dynamics, especially the northward penetration of relatively warm Atlantic Water, as modulators of climatic change in the western Arctic. The lingering ice sheets and their interaction with fluctuating, meridionally oriented ocean currents in the North Atlantic sector resulted in a fundamentally different response compared with the Pacific sector, where the circulation regime is more zonal.

Holocene thermal maximum in the western Arctic (0–180
W)

In other words, it's not the same as ACC because the cause of feedback was orbital variation and summer insulation, not industrialization and the emission of CO2 into the atmosphere on a mass scale.

[anasawad]

@Pants-of-dog
If the drinking water remark was a mistake, then let's talk about poverty.

Around half of all Americans are poor at the moment.
43% of Americans can't afford or struggle with basic life necessities.

https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/17/news/e ... index.html
https://eand.co/half-of-americans-are-e ... 44c518db6a
https://www.commondreams.org/views/2017 ... -evidence#

How exactly is poverty faced by some black communities in the US caused by racism when half of all Americans are poor? It seems this problem is not bound by racial lines.

[Pants-of-dog]

@anasawad

Do you understand that racism can be part of the reason for black people to be poor, even if white people are also poor?

Since poverty can be caused by more than one thing, white people can be poor for reasons that have nothing to do with racism and at the same time, black people can be poor for reasons that include racism.

Do you agree?

[Sivad]

In other words, it's not the same as ACC because the cause of feedback was orbital variation and summer insulation, not industrialization and the emission of CO2 into the atmosphere on a mass scale.

for certain.

[Donna]

for certain.

Classy response.

[maz]

Black people in the US are not oppressed.
And that history ended many decades ago.

Another black woman who chose not to attend an HBCU being horribly oppressed in a college campus.

[ingliz]

racism

Problem solving.

The Stalinist solution: Where there's a person, there's a problem. No people, no problems.

[anasawad]

@Pants-of-dog

Do you understand that racism can be part of the reason for black people to be poor, even if white people are also poor?

Since poverty can be caused by more than one thing, white people can be poor for reasons that have nothing to do with racism and at the same time, black people can be poor for reasons that include racism.

Do you agree?

No, I disagree.

Racism can be the cause of many things like political tension, hostilities, etc but without active economic discrimination in the form of banning from jobs or from taking loans or any other type of opportunities, racism can't be a cause of poverty, and the US has a large set of laws banning discrimination and providing affirmative action for minorities since I believe the 60s or the 70s.

Furthermore, the richest groups in the US are Asians and Jews, which means if racism was a cause for poverty then atleast Asians wont be on top since their history isn't well with the US.

A more accurate explanation is the aforementioned reasons for poverty all across the US along with other factors.

-Automation is killing off the middle class.
-The heavy concentration of wealth on top causes the economic cycle and conversion cycles to slow down and thus reduce economic activity and growth.
-The high costs of education and the lack of sufficient opportunities means too many people drop out of study and take lower-end jobs.
- Teenage pregnancies, especially when accompanied by conservative views. This is actually a problem all across the US and not limited to black communities as some would claim, nor to rural white America as others would claim.
Along with many other factors taking effect.


The only way, under the current set of laws the US has, for racism to cause poverty is that if for example a woman like in the OP would actively skip or not take growth opportunities simply because the presence of white people in said job makes her feel uncomfortable. The same problem affects any racist white person who refuses to take opportunities for racial reasons.


Racism does exist, but it's not the cause here.

[Godstud]

@anasawad You do know that there is such a thing as positive and negative stereotypes, right?

Asians and Jews generally have positive stereotypes, and you are absolutely clueless about racism if you think it doesn't affect people trying to get jobs, how laws are enforced against them, and other things that contribute to poverty.

RACE AND POVERTY IN AMERICA PUBLIC MISPERCEPTIONS AND THE AMERICAN NEWS MEDIA
https://web.stanford.edu/class/comm1a/r ... overty.pdf

How racial and regional inequality affect economic opportunity
The Connection of Racial and Regional Inequality

The high concentration of the African-American population in particular areas has also meant that policies or practices that disadvantage the black community will wind up reinforcing particular patterns of regional or spatial inequality. While many of the most egregious policies designed to promote and encourage racial discrimination have been outlawed, research has shed light on the ways that their effects linger and interact with contemporary policies.

As Hardy, Logan, and Parman explain, there are a range of policies or practices that continue to disadvantage black individuals and communities throughout the U.S., impacting areas including:

- Public education, which has often been underfunded in African-American majority schools, limiting skill acquisition and upward mobility for black Americans.

- Employment discrimination, which makes it more difficult for black families to escape from poverty or build wealth in their community.

- The social safety net system, where there is an increased likelihood of sanctioning and spending is less generous for black communities.

- The criminal justice system, where poor outcomes for black Americans include higher bail and greater likelihood of monetary sanctions, among other penalties.

Given the history and the concentration of the black population throughout the U.S., regional inequality is often shaped by racial inequality, and taking steps to combat regional inequality will need to recognize this source. Accordingly, identifying mechanisms to not only address, but actually reverse, the ongoing effects of discriminatory policies and practices is not only a moral imperative: it is also a pressing economic concern.
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front ... portunity/

[anasawad]

@Godstud

- Public education, which has often been underfunded in African-American majority schools, limiting skill acquisition and upward mobility for black Americans.

Public education is not only underfunded but also substandard in large sections of the US in general, affecting all racial and ethnic groups.
If it wasn't, then it wouldn't have been a main campaign issue by Bush, Obama, Sanders, and many others.

- Employment discrimination, which makes it more difficult for black families to escape from poverty or build wealth in their community.

There are laws against racial discrimination and they are being enforced.
Furthermore, as stated above, the problem isn't with racism but rather the destruction of middle-class jobs in general which is affecting everyone in the US and the world as a whole.

Blaming the job loss and lack of good employment on racism and discrimination against black people when it's affecting everyone is a useless old trope that the reality on the ground doesn't account for.

- The social safety net system, where there is an increased likelihood of sanctioning and spending is less generous for black communities.

If this is meant as a reference to public safety nets, then the US doesn't have those for anyone.
If it is meant as a reference to lack of social cohesion and thus lower family safety nets, then that's not a problem of racism but rather an internal problem.
Eitherway, racism is not to blame here.

- The criminal justice system, where poor outcomes for black Americans include higher bail and greater likelihood of monetary sanctions, among other penalties.

The criminal justice system's main problem is the war on drugs and the spread of international mobs and gangs into poor areas of major cities to be close to major markets.
As I have explained many times before in multiple threads, the existence of these communities near or in major cities makes them a prime targets for these gangs, increasing the level of internal violence and thus increasing police alertness when entering these areas. This is the main cause for police violence and large numbers of arrests.

This problem exists not only in black communities in the US, but in the US in general and in each and every single country in the world across racial and ethnic lines.

And regarding the penalties, all of the working and lower class in the US suffer from it and that's around half the population, so not limited to black people.
Yet again, this is taking a general problem and thinking that it's complex and nuanced when it comes to everyone else, but must be racism if black people encountered it.

Given the history and the concentration of the black population throughout the U.S., regional inequality is often shaped by racial inequality

True, this is the only problem that is caused by past history for black communities, they were in the wrong location.
If they had been in rural or suburban America (Anywhere in those flyover states), then they'll be forgotten there along with all the other impoverished 3rd world communities present there.

and taking steps to combat regional inequality will need to recognize this source. Accordingly, identifying mechanisms to not only address, but actually reverse, the ongoing effects of discriminatory policies and practices is not only a moral imperative: it is also a pressing economic concern.

The highest degree of regional inequality currently present in the US isn't between black areas and everywhere else, it's between the coastal metropolitan areas and the inner lands of the US.

That's where Trump won in the last election because he appealed to the sentiments of the people there.
Now I know everyone would like to claim this is because they're racist as was implied by Clinton and on this thread, but Bernie Sanders is also gaining momentum there and taking these areas in this election cycle, is Bernie Sanders appealing to racism?

This paper is actualy a good sample for why the "Academic" community in the US is falling apart, focusing more on limited data sets that support building a narrative, all while ignoring the whole.

You do know that there is such a thing as positive and negative stereotypes, right?

Asians and Jews generally have positive stereotypes, and you are absolutely clueless about racism if you think it doesn't affect people trying to get jobs, how laws are enforced against them, and other things that contribute to poverty.

How are laws enforced against them exactly? How are affirmative action quotas and anti-descrimination laws being used in a racist way?

And affecting people getting good jobs? The whole problem with the US is that there aren't really many good jobs left to begin with.
Furthermore, if we want to look at good middle class jobs, especially in the sciences (which pays the most BTW), are being filled by immigrants, I don't remember the exact percentage but I quoted before here that somewhere around 40-50% of these fields are filled with immigrants, which is a main driver of the anti-immigration sentiment spreading in the US.
Again, even Bernie Sanders addressed this excess immigration and open borders issue before and described it as a Koch brothers plot.
Wages have not grown with inflation, this is a worldwide issue, and rampant immigration is hurting both countries of origin and destination in that it's a brain drain on one and taking scarce jobs in the other.
This problem is not caused or driven by racism, this is faulty state economic policy and regulations at play, and it's not limited to black people.



Also, regarding the first paper;
The abstract:

Over the past decades, the black urban poor have come
to dominate public images of poverty. Surveys show that the American public dramatically exaggerates the proportion of African
Americans among the poor and that such misperceptions are associated with greater opposition to welfare. In this article I examine the
relationship between news media portrayals and public images of
poverty. I find that network TV news and weekly newsmagazines
portray the poor as substantially more black than is really the case.
In more detailed analyses of newsmagazines, I find that the most
sympathetic subgroups of the poor, such as the elderly and the working poor, are underrepresented, while the least sympathetic groupunemployed working-age adults-is overrepresented. Finally, these
discrepancies between magazine portrayals of the poor and the true
nature of poverty are greater for African Americans than for others.
Thus the unflattering (and distorted) portrait of the poor presented
in these newsmagazines is even more unflattering (and more distorted) for poor African American

Exactly what 've been saying for the past several pages, everyone is ignoring the fact that around half of the US population is poor, and focusing on just black people, which is why these false narratives are taking hold and actively preventing any active solution to the rampant poverty spreading across the US.

[Tainari88]

Well, whatever your deal is I don't give a fuck about my roots or my heritage or my ethnos, the only thing I give a fuck about is getting conscious intelligent life out of retard hell. the good news is the whole species is on the verge of obsolescence so all you shitwits can kiss your retarded fucking ethnos goodbye.

This is the reason you keep going to those websites Sivad. You are looking for ways to define yourself because no one gave you a sense of roots. I know you don't give a fuck about your heritage, your roots, or anything else. I think you don't give a shit about your politics either? You haven't done the work on yourself at all.

A common problem of people who come from poverty, who go to public schools with horrible educational content and who never learn relevant information about their own historical contexts.

You proved to me I was right about hoping you got your act together.

Now you can be rude again, flip me off, be obnoxious and all the rest.

You still need to do that work about being disciplined with your self-knowledge. Until then you will be running from hard debate questions on PoFo for the rest of your life.

Don't be a cheap attention seeker without a goal. That is troll.

Go for discourse.

Go for knowledge.

Go for a sense of self that is profound.

Don't get depressed about life.

Life is beautiful.

But you got to believe in your place in the world to see how beautiful being a human being can be.

Until you work on those issues Sivad? You won't be making much progress.

[Rancid]

I'm down for reasonable honest conversation whenever you're ready. Go start being reasonable and I'm in.

Didn't you say Donna is not worth your time? Why do you keep responding to Donna then?

[Godstud]

@anasawad Nothing you said there dismisses the facts presented to you. You are merely making your own uninformed opinion on the subject. Believe what you want, but the facts remain that racial and economic inequality are at the core of much of the poverty in the USA.

[anasawad]

@Godstud
My "uninformed opinion" is apparently shared by too many people, including Bernie Sanders and the likes, weird right?

Race is not at the core of poverty in the US since poverty is spread beyond racial and ethnic lines.
And not only that, but the poorest regions and areas in the US are overwhelming majority white, not black or hispanic, with the poorest regions being West Virginia, Mississipi, and Arkansas, all with overwhelming majority white.
Meaning that poverty is not limited to black people and thus isn't driven by racism, regardless of how much all of you want to keep pushing false narratives.

It should be obvious by the fact that black people make up slightly more than 10% of the population while half of the population is poor.

[Pants-of-dog]

@Pants-of-dog

No, I disagree.

Then you are wrong and have an overly simplistic way of looking at poverty and racism.

Racism can be the cause of many things like political tension, hostilities, etc but without active economic discrimination in the form of banning from jobs or from taking loans or any other type of opportunities, racism can't be a cause of poverty, and the US has a large set of laws banning discrimination and providing affirmative action for minorities since I believe the 60s or the 70s.

Furthermore, the richest groups in the US are Asians and Jews, which means if racism was a cause for poverty then atleast Asians wont be on top since their history isn't well with the US.

A more accurate explanation is the aforementioned reasons for poverty all across the US along with other factors.

-Automation is killing off the middle class.
-The heavy concentration of wealth on top causes the economic cycle and conversion cycles to slow down and thus reduce economic activity and growth.
-The high costs of education and the lack of sufficient opportunities means too many people drop out of study and take lower-end jobs.
- Teenage pregnancies, especially when accompanied by conservative views. This is actually a problem all across the US and not limited to black communities as some would claim, nor to rural white America as others would claim.
Along with many other factors taking effect.


The only way, under the current set of laws the US has, for racism to cause poverty is that if for example a woman like in the OP would actively skip or not take growth opportunities simply because the presence of white people in said job makes her feel uncomfortable. The same problem affects any racist white person who refuses to take opportunities for racial reasons.


Racism does exist, but it's not the cause here.

If you were to look at actual evidence, you would see that racism can and does still cause poverty.

https://www.economist.com/special-repor ... olour-most

[late]

If you were to look at actual evidence, you would see that racism can and does still cause poverty.

Of course.

I used to subscribe to the Economist. The price is a bit much for retirement,. I miss it. Sometimes they hit it out of the proverbial park.

[anasawad]

@Pants-of-dog

Then you are wrong and have an overly simplistic way of looking at poverty and racism.

My view is the simplistic one, not yours which claims everything is caused by a single word explanation.

If you were to look at actual evidence, you would see that racism can and does still cause poverty.

https://www.economist.com/special-repor ... olour-most

1- It need registration so quote the relevant parts.
2- Looking at the numbers they site from the available parts, they're taking the official 1960s based poverty calculation which only accounts for inflation, the standard that the Congressional Research Services (CRS) has said is wrong and doesn't represent the actual poverty rate.
Once you take the actual poverty rate, the rates for blacks and whites even up.
3- In the title of the article, it clearly says it's hard to tell whether its policy or history affecting it, rendering your entire hypothesis about how it's all about that history many decades ago, at best, a maybe has an effect.
and finally, 4- it talks about a county in Georgia. The state of Georgia is majority white, around 60%, and is in the 10 poorest states and territories in the US, meaning that poverty there is, yet again, not limited or even concentrated in black communities.


So, by looking the evidence, everything you cited in this thread so far either disproves your claim, actively sides with me, or chooses to ignore all the data and focuses on a very small sample, all while the very few sources I need to cite to prove my point does more than enough to concretely prove that poverty is not caused or driven by poverty but rather a more general national problem.

[Pants-of-dog]

@Pants-of-dog


My view is the simplistic one, not yours which claims everything is caused by a single word explanation.

If that is what you think my argument is, then you have misunderstood.

Again, poverty is caused by many things. Racism is one of those things. And not all poor people are poor because of racism.

Do you agree?

If not, you must then be arguing that racism is not one of the causes of poverty for black, Latino, and indigenous people.

1- It need registration so quote the relevant parts.
2- Looking at the numbers they site from the available parts, they're taking the official 1960s based poverty calculation which only accounts for inflation, the standard that the Congressional Research Services (CRS) has said is wrong and doesn't represent the actual poverty rate.
Once you take the actual poverty rate, the rates for blacks and whites even up.
3- In the title of the article, it clearly says it's hard to tell whether its policy or history affecting it, rendering your entire hypothesis about how it's all about that history many decades ago, at best, a maybe has an effect.
and finally, 4- it talks about a county in Georgia. The state of Georgia is majority white, around 60%, and is in the 10 poorest states and territories in the US, meaning that poverty there is, yet again, not limited or even concentrated in black communities.


So, by looking the evidence, everything you cited in this thread so far either disproves your claim, actively sides with me, or chooses to ignore all the data and focuses on a very small sample, all while the very few sources I need to cite to prove my point does more than enough to concretely prove that poverty is not caused or driven by poverty but rather a more general national problem.

Quote the evidence that supports your claim.