Cuba has proven that capitalism and technology are failures - Page 58 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15080470
QatzelOk wrote:If China were a more open society, they would have been severely colonized and crushed by Western business interests.

The West and its lying, stealing elite, force other countries to shut themselves off. This is the other horrible consequence of colonialism and creating a mindless, zombie soldier class (like we've done).


Every developing country needs a strong enough state to help guide economic development and prevent richer countries & corporations from exploiting their resources and industries. That state however does not have to be communist to do so: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developmental_state
#15080492
skinster wrote:https://twitter.com/Karl_Was_Right/status/1245097979041550336?s=20


It does not work for us and is causing us to suffer or (for some people like Li Wenliang and the Chinese victims of COVID-19) even die.

Advocating Communism at times like this is no different from murder. Therefore, it is not too much of a stretch to say that, all people who made those tweets, and this Member called skinster (this word spells so much like "sinister" by the way) sharing these tweets, and other members who agree with him here, are all murderers.
#15080496
Donna wrote:That isn't what is happening, though. Even electing a social democratic government is no longer a guarantee that public services and the infrastructure of the commons can be protected.


It's still better than nationalizing everything and turning the economy to shit, and better than privatizing everything and turning social outcomes to shit.
#15080497
Pants-of-dog wrote:As far as I can remember, none of the people in this thread who support Cuba are from the USA, though most of Cuba’s critics are.


Where are most of them from?
#15080509
Unthinking Majority wrote:It's still better than nationalizing everything and turning the economy to shit....


Eamonn McCann wrote:Ireland nationalizes hospitals – “It can be done”

Late on 24 March, Ireland’s Health Minister Simon Harris announced “For the duration of this crisis the State will take control of all private hospital facilities and manage all of the resources for the common benefit of all of our people. There can be no room for public versus private when it comes to pandemic.” [1] Here Eamonn McCann looks at how production can be reorganized to solve the coronavirus crisis and more. It has been done before and it can be done again.

It's not easy to have a mixed economy when you have millionaires golfing with all your political leaders. So it's much safer to have less capitalism (restaurants, taxis, hotels, luxury goods) and the rest, socialized.

Living north of the USA has proven that to me. All my vacations to Cuba in the last years involve flying over For-Profit-land and not regretting that my destination is NOT that. Cuba has private industries in all the categories I just mentionned, and a few more. But the essentials of a good life have all been socialized for the betterment of the entire society.
#15080657


Patrickov wrote:It does not work for us and is causing us to suffer or (for some people like Li Wenliang and the Chinese victims of COVID-19) even die.


I think it worked for the 800 million plus Chinese who've been lifted out of poverty.

Advocating Communism at times like this is no different from murder. Therefore, it is not too much of a stretch to say that, all people who made those tweets, and this Member called skinster (this word spells so much like "sinister" by the way) sharing these tweets, and other members who agree with him here, are all murderers.


He keeps coming out with literal DUMB. :lol:
#15080664
skinster wrote:I think it worked for the 800 million plus Chinese who've been lifted out of poverty.

By the time the banksters and their 1% prostitutes are through with us, we will all need to be lifted out of poverty.

And our Special Period will happen at the exact same time.

Fugencia Batista's mafia had to use Agent Orange on his own citizens. With commercial media and non-stop war propaganda, Westerners are receiving Agent Orange in their souls every day.

We are the dumbest of dumb Cubans who protested their own poverty... by watching TV and calling the cops on our neighbors for not social distancing enough.
#15080688
skinster wrote:I think it worked for the 800 million plus Chinese who've been lifted out of poverty.


With their personality any system can do that as long as they are technically comparable (no need to be superior) to everyone else.

(Chinese) Communism, meanwhile, failed at other aspects, most importantly respect of personal freedom and rights of speech and to criticise the government of whatever they do wrong. And to us, it is, factually, worse than British Imperialism.
#15080694
Patrickov wrote:With their personality any system can do that as long as they are technically comparable (no need to be superior) to everyone else.

(Chinese) Communism, meanwhile, failed at other aspects, most importantly respect of personal freedom and rights of speech and to criticise the government of whatever they do wrong. And to us, it is, factually, worse than British Imperialism.


In Latin America, western imperialism has been the main cause of disrespect of personal freedom, rights of speech, et cetera.

If you feel that personal freedom and freedom of speech are important m then you should support socialist movements in Latin America.
#15080698
Pants-of-dog wrote:In Latin America, western imperialism has been the main cause of disrespect of personal freedom, rights of speech, et cetera.

If you feel that personal freedom and freedom of speech are important m then you should support socialist movements in Latin America.


It is the opposite in East Asia (because of the large number of Communist regime here) so there is nothing else to discuss here.
#15080702
Patrickov wrote:(Chinese) Communism, meanwhile, failed at other aspects, most importantly respect of personal freedom and rights of speech and to criticise the government of whatever they do wrong. And to us, it is, factually, worse than British Imperialism.

How many Western-sponsored "color-coded revolutions" were avoided by controlling this type of thing?

In the West, freedom of speech means that large corporations are allowed to fund propaganda and have it delivered to the masses. Corporations were free to move all our jobs to countries with much worse work and environmental standards, and the media these corporations owned are free to scapegoat other nations using racism dog whistles.

And now, it turns out that our freedom of association can be tossed into the garbage with very short notice.

Freedom to drive whatever SUV you want to whatever bungalow you want in whatever dead suburb you want.

It's harder than ever to regurgitate our "freedom" propaganda.
#15080703
Patrickov wrote:It is the opposite in East Asia (because of the large number of Communist regime here) so there is nothing else to discuss here.


Were the Viet Cong able to defeat the US without any support from the Vietnamese people?

I was under the impression that the Viet Cong enjoyed the support of the populace, and the populace felt that the VC were liberating the country from French rule.
#15080705
QatzelOk wrote:In the West, freedom of speech means that large corporations are allowed to fund propaganda and have it delivered to the masses. Corporations were free to move all our jobs to countries with much worse work and environmental standards, and the media these corporations owned are free to scapegoat other nations using racism dog whistles.


The first point is why some people now choose to believe "alternative media". I agree that some people simply lack critical thinking (and probably won't hurt if the said freedom is removed from them), but that does not mean such freedom is itself wrong, and advocation of an alternative ideology which enables systematic oppression of such freedom is not right either.

The second point is simply irrelevant. On a side note Trump's rise helped sounding the alarm on that (although it is understandable that some see him as the worse manifest of what he claims to fight himself). IMHO the tide is definitely turning for this one.

For the third point, if I am a foreigner battering China, I should fully accept whatever shit is thrown at me through this point, but I am 100% Chinese myself and have been to China for quite a while. I have to say that China indeed asked for it. Meanwhile I do have some soft spot on countries like Iran, who at least made some attempt to be democratic with recognisable success.
#15080708
Pants-of-dog wrote:Were the Viet Cong able to defeat the US without any support from the Vietnamese people?

I was under the impression that the Viet Cong enjoyed the support of the populace, and the populace felt that the VC were liberating the country from French rule.


The French were long gone at the bitterest stage of Vietnam war. South Vietnam and the United States had no one to blame for losing it, of course. (The same can be said for, say, Chiang Kai-Shek)

But the refugees fleeing Vietnam did not do that for no reason. Is the implication being that those refugees had been capitalist scums and deserve whatever shit thrown at them?

And to be fair, of all those Communist countries in East Asia Vietnam seemed to be "slightly more reasonable".
#15080710
Patrickov wrote:The second point is simply irrelevant.

Point 2: Corporations were free to move all our jobs to countries with much worse work and environmental standards

In the colonial period, corporations were free to kill all the First Nations and replace them with obedient and damaged slaves from Europe and Africa.

In the neo-liberal period, they were free to move all those same jobs to people with far less freedom.

Why not let these same corporate entities kill us all like they did the First Nations?

From a non-socialist viewpoint like the one you're promoting - the freedom of the rich to enslave and destroy anything they want - you should smile at the thought of the extirmination of your own people. It's the best thing that money can do to maintain itself right now: continue harnassing third-world unfree labor, while eliminating spoiled-brat nations that think they have 'freedom' and the right to enjoy their lives.
Last edited by QatzelOk on 01 Apr 2020 18:01, edited 1 time in total.
#15080712
Patrickov wrote:The French were long gone at the bitterest stage of Vietnam war. South Vietnam and the United States had no one to blame for losing it, of course. (The same can be said for, say, Chiang Kai-Shek)


Yes, the VC had already defeated the French in their quest for national liberation.

But the refugees fleeing Vietnam did not do that for no reason. Is the implication being that those refugees had been capitalist scums and deserve whatever shit thrown at them?


I made no implication.

And to be fair, of all those Communist countries in East Asia Vietnam seemed to be "slightly more reasonable".


If some socialist movements are more reasonable than others, then it is incorrect to argue that all of them are oppressive.
#15080714
QatzelOk wrote:Point 2: Corporations were free to move all our jobs to countries with much worse work and environmental standards

In the colonial period, corporations were free to kill all the First Nations are replace them with obedient and damaged slaves from Europe and Africa.

In the neo-liberal period, they were free to move all those same jobs to people with far less freedom.

Why not let these same corporate entities kill us all like they did the First Nations?

From a non-socialist viewpoint like the one you're promoting - the freedom of the rich to enslave and destroy anything they want - you should smile at the thought of the extirmination of your own people. It's the best thing that money can do to maintain itself right now: continue harnassing third-world unfree labor, while eliminating spoiled-brat nations that think they have 'freedom."


I protest the act that my whole statement being cut short in the above quote and thus, taken out of context. And indeed the above quote was in complete disregard of the deleted part, which describes my recent observation that the above "oppression" is about to be undone, and I do not hold negative view of that recent trend.
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