[Sivad]

points which I have already noted and discarded as nonsense.

So in your mind you're qualified to discard serious data recording issues when some of the most highly respected public health authorities in the world are saying that it's a major problem?

[Ter]

Everyone knows people with pre-existing conditions are dying, but also people with NO pre-existing conditions.

People with pre-existing conditions are not necessarily dying.
People with diabetes can live with that condition for many decades.
The same with obesity or high blood pressure, or most heart conditions.
So to assume that someone positive for the Chinese virus died because of some of the co-morbidities is quite stupid.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

So in your mind you're qualified to discard serious data recording issues when some of the most highly respected public health authorities in the world are saying that it's a major problem?

I'm not going to restart this conversation with you, but I have to say that I'm amused that the above is coming from somebody who routinely dismisses the most highly respected authorities on any subject imaginable.

People with pre-existing conditions are not necessarily dying.
People with diabetes can live with that condition for many decades.
The same with obesity or high blood pressure, or most heart conditions.
So to assume that someone positive for the Chinese virus died because of some of the co-morbidities is quite stupid.

The stupidity really boggles the mind.

If I had problems with my cardiovascular system which made it harder for me to stay alive while this virus wreaks havoc in my lungs and die as a result, some people are apparently unhappy that I'd show up in the Covid death count. Never mind that people who can't breathe won't care how we count them, but they *will* show up at hospitals or phone ambulances or simply die at home and this will happen in massive numbers if we don't stop this virus from spreading, with all the knock-on effects that will have as well.

At best this is an academic ivory tower debate and at worst it's callous stupidity.

[QatzelOk]

I'm not going to restart this conversation with you, but I have to say that I'm amused that the above is coming from somebody who routinely dismisses the most highly respected authorities on any subject imaginable.

But this time, the authorities are saying something that would help the economy to keep growing. So this time, the science is digestible to Sivad.

Today's post-literates (the TV and pic-viewers) are more dangerous than pre-literates because they actually WANT science, but only to make them gadgets that make themselves more powerful. Which is suicidal for our species if it's not mitigated by scientific neutrality and caution.

So... Keep up the scare tactics, gang!

[Sivad]

I'm not going to restart this conversation with you,

I haven't even started this conversation yet, I've barely begun to look into it. There's a lot more on the way.

but I have to say that I'm amused that the above is coming from somebody who routinely dismisses the most highly respected authorities on any subject imaginable.

I don't do that, every position I hold on some particular question of science is backed up not just by experts, but by the most highly respected experts from the most prestigious institutions on earth. The people I rely on are the top academics and regulators in the Western world, the people who have literally written the book for their field.

The stupidity really boggles the mind.

It truly does.

If I had problems with my cardiovascular system which made it harder for me to stay alive while this virus wreaks havoc in my lungs and die as a result, some people are apparently unhappy that I'd show up in the Covid death count. Never mind that people who can't breathe won't care how we count them, but they *will* show up at hospitals or phone ambulances or simply die at home and this will happen in massive numbers if we don't stop this virus from spreading, with all the knock-on effects that will have as well.

Well that's just a bullshit straw man. The claim isn't that every death with a comorbidity wasn't caused by corona, the claim is that corona hasn't been confirmed as the cause of death in the vast majority of cases and that since the vast majority of deaths are in people over the age of 65 with multiple comorbidities it's a virtual certainty that a great many deaths are being incorrectly attributed to the virus.

At best this is an academic ivory tower debate and at worst it's callous stupidity.

Yeah, it's not important to know how many deaths are actually being caused by the virus, it doesn't matter if the count is way off, it's not like the consequences of a wildly inflated death count would be disastrous for the global economy or anything...

[Kaiserschmarrn]

I've barely begun to look into it.

It shows.

I don't do that, every position I hold on some particular question of science is backed up not just by experts, but by the most highly respected experts from the most prestigious institutions on earth. The people I rely on are the top academics and regulators in the Western world, the people who have literally written the book for their field.

Now you've made me laugh even more.

Well that's just a bullshit straw man.

Not a straw man. I've described the reality for you. These people will and in some cases already do overwhelm hospitals and healthcare services in general, whether you are unhappy with the death counts or not.

[Godstud]

@Ter I am not sure you understood what I meant. Let me clarify.

Everyone knows people with pre-existing conditions are dying (of COVID-19), but also people with NO pre-existing conditions.

I am aware that mild things can be pre-existing conditions that don't necessarily restrict people or even shorten their life-span.

Note: Pre-existing conditions can ALSO can be mental illness.

edit: spelling error

[Ter]

@Ter I am not sure you understood what I meant. Let me clarify.

Everyone knows people with pre-existing conditions are dying (of COVID-19), but also people with NO pre-existing conditions.

I am aware that mild things can be pre-existing conditions that don't necessarily restrict people or even shorten their life-span.

Note: Pre-existing conditions can ALSO me mental illness.

Yes, noted.
My post was not critical of what you said, rather a comment on what is or should be mentioned as cause of death.
Many doctors mention something general on death certificates, like "heart failure", or "multiple organ failure". What exactly should be considered the real cause of death ideally needs an autopsy, and that is something which is not routinely done on Corona patients for obvious reasons.
So it is pretty stupid to look for any other reason when someone who has the Chinese virus died.

[Sivad]

@ 13:00 minutes the "dr mike" character asks Fauci about cause of death and Fauci vaguley replies that it is going to impact the numbers, what dr mike says next is pretty telling though. He says that many countries with low a death count are listing cause of death as pneumonia and not coronavirus, implying that low death countries are cooking their stats. Now that could be the case but it's more likely that they have a sound medical reason for recording pneumonia rather than corona and it's the high death countries that are incorrectly attributing CoD to corona(there are any number of political and budgetary reasons for inflating corona death stats). Whatever the case, there's a legitimate urgent question here that needs to fully answered because our future liberty and prosperity are heavily riding on it.

[Sivad]

People with pre-existing conditions are not necessarily dying.
People with diabetes can live with that condition for many decades.
The same with obesity or high blood pressure, or most heart conditions.

It's clear from the fact that people in good health are extremely unlikely to be seriously impacted that it's not people with minor health problems that are dying. Most of these deaths are people with extremely poor health, not just a touch of diabetes or slightly hypertensive. If the virus was virulent enough to kill people with only moderate health problems we'd be seeing a lot more deaths in healthy people.

[Sivad]

Sivad, confirmed sociopath.

Donna, confirmed dingbat.

[Ter]

It's clear from the fact that people in good health are extremely unlikely to be seriously impacted that it's not people with minor health problems that are dying. Most of these deaths are people with extremely poor health, not just a touch of diabetes or slightly hypertensive. If the virus was virulent enough to kill people with only moderate health problems we'd be seeing a lot more deaths in healthy people.

Fact: young people, including those in good health, are also dying.
Fact: although older people are the most likely to be seriously impacted, and most old people have one or more co-morbidities, it is generally assumed that the Chinese virus is the determining factor causing death.

Pneumonia is known as "the old man's friend". Even without Corona. As Corona is the direct cause of pneumonia, it is seen as the cause of death. People who cannot breathe die. To assign cause of death to something else is not acceptable.
People doing that most probably have an agenda. Like saving the economy ?

By the by : the twitter Savid posted just a bit earlier to try and fortify the assumption that many Corona victims died of something else was authored by Adam Townsend, "Investor, extreme salesman". Ding dong.

[Sivad]

An Open Letter from Dr. Sucharit Bhakdi, Professor Emeritus of Medical Microbiology at the Johannes Gutenberg University Mainz, Director of the Institute for Medical Microbiology and Hygiene, to the German Chancellor Dr. Angela Merkel:

the mistake is being made worldwide to report virus-related deaths as soon as it is established that the virus was present at the time of death – regardless of other factors. This violates a Principles of only when it is certain that an agent has played a significant role in the disease or death may a diagnosis be made. The Association of the Scientific Medical Societies of Germany expressly writes in its guidelines: “In addition to the cause of death, a causal chain must be stated, with the corresponding underlying disease in third place on the death certificate. Occasionally, four-linked causal chains must also be stated.“ [6]

At present there is no official information on whether, at least in retrospect, more critical analyses of medical records have been undertaken to determine how many deaths were actually caused by the virus.

My question: Has Germany simply followed this trend of a COVID-19 general suspicion? And: is it intended to continue this categorisation uncritically as in other countries? How, then, is a distinction to be made between genuine corona-related deaths and accidental virus presence at the time of death?

[BeesKnee5]

An Open Letter from Dr. Sucharit Bhakdi, Professor Emeritus of Medical Microbiology at the Johannes Gutenberg University Mainz, Director of the Institute for Medical Microbiology and Hygiene, to the German Chancellor Dr. Angela Merkel:

the mistake is being made worldwide to report virus-related deaths as soon as it is established that the virus was present at the time of death – regardless of other factors. This violates a Principles of only when it is certain that an agent has played a significant role in the disease or death may a diagnosis be made. The Association of the Scientific Medical Societies of Germany expressly writes in its guidelines: “In addition to the cause of death, a causal chain must be stated, with the corresponding underlying disease in third place on the death certificate. Occasionally, four-linked causal chains must also be stated.“ [6]

At present there is no official information on whether, at least in retrospect, more critical analyses of medical records have been undertaken to determine how many deaths were actually caused by the virus.

My question: Has Germany simply followed this trend of a COVID-19 general suspicion? And: is it intended to continue this categorisation uncritically as in other countries? How, then, is a distinction to be made between genuine corona-related deaths and accidental virus presence at the time of death?

I don't use YouTube for information but if it's the letter I saw a couple of weeks ago it was just a list of questions from the old guy.

[Rich]

Yeah, the death count has been wildly inflated, they're counting everyone who tests positive regardless of whether they died from corona:

I'm not even sure that they have to test positive for the Xi virus to counted. I'm hearing about some people who are enraged that the authorities insisted on attributing their relative's death to the Corrona virus.

Its very easy to be callous about some of the deaths in old peoples homes. Yes, yes some of these people have appalling qualities of life, but you need to remember that old age care is increasingly a big corporate industry. The CEOs of these companies will have to go before their share holders and explain what's happened to their share dividends. In modern western countries the sickness, old age and disabilities industries are vast. Why do you think that Liberals so object to fat shaming? Obesity is probably the number one driver of ill health, its a massive, massive profit driver.

[BeesKnee5]

Meanwhile on the ground,

https://www.corriere.it/politica/20_mar ... resh_ce-cp

Nembro, one of the municipalities most affected by Covid-19, should have had - under normal conditions - about 35 deaths. 158 people were registered dead this year by the municipal offices. But the number of deaths officially attributed to Covid-19 is 31

The difference is enormous and cannot be a simple statistical deviation. Demographic statistics have their «constancies» and annual averages change only when completely «new» phenomena arrive. In this case, the number of abnormal deaths compared to the average that Nembro recorded in the period of time in consideration is equal to 4 times those officially attributed to Covid-19. If a comparison is made between the deaths that have occurred and the same period in previous years, the anomaly is even more evident: there is a peak of «other» deaths in correspondence with that of the official deaths from Covid-19.

In the hypothesis - not at all remote - that all citizens of Nembro have caught the virus (with many asymptomatic, therefore), 158 deaths would equate to a lethality rate of 1%. That is precisely the expected and measured lethality rate on the Diamond Princess cruise ship and - made proportionally by demographic structure - in South Korea. We have made exactly the same calculation for the municipalities of Cernusco sul Naviglio (Mi) and Pesaro using exactly the same methodology. In Cernusco the number of anomalous deaths is equal to 6.1 times those officially attributed to Covid-19, also in Pesaro 6.1 times. But even more staggering are the Bergamo figures, where the ratio reaches 10.4.

[Sivad]

I don't use YouTube for information

Why in the preposterous stupid not? That's like saying "I don't get my information from lectures and presentations". oh my fucking pofo.

[Sivad]

This isn't the first time the babbitt that's behind the Imperial model has caused a retarded panic. He did it in 2001 with the foot-and-mouth disease farce and again in 2009 with the swine flu(he claimed 70,000 would die, it turned out to be less than four hundred).

Another professor, Michael Thrusfield of Edinburgh University has claimed Professor Ferguson’s “severely flawed’’ errors 19 years ago led to the cull of more than six million animals that did not need to die. Another government study also found Professor Ferguson and his team at Imperial College used models during the foot and mouth crisis that “were not suitable for predicting the course of the epidemic and the effects of control measures. The models also remain not validated. Their use to predict the effects of control strategies was therefore imprudent.”

The same Professor Ferguson predicted as many as 69,000 deaths from swine flu in 2009 when only a few hundred died.

Another critic of the Imperial College study is John Ioannidis, a professor in disease prevention at Stanford University. He told The Telegraph UK: “The Imperial College study has been done by a highly competent team of modellers. However, some of the major assumptions and estimates that are built in the calculations seem to be substantially inflated.”

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/world/ ... 3af249ddf7

[Atlantis]

Nembro, one of the municipalities most affected by Covid-19, should have had - under normal conditions - about 35 deaths. 158 people were registered dead this year by the municipal offices. But the number of deaths officially attributed to Covid-19 is 31

Deaths for flue and other epidemics are estimated by excess deaths and not by individual counts. The same will be done for Covid, since you can't compare apples and pears. The death count we see now is only the tip of the iceberg.

Did the trolls apologize for downplaying the danger? With timely intervention nobody in Europe or the US would have had to die. The trolls are 100% to blame.

[Rancid]

With timely intervention nobody in Europe or the US would have had to die.

Doubtful. At least some people would have died.

I don't believe you can eradicate a disease like this. The amount of cooperation needed from every individual is just practically impossible. Hell, when I go to the grocery store, there are people that can't even follow the basic rule of standing 6ft apart. There are these markers on the floor that are separated by 6ft. There are employees and signs saying to stand on the markers to maintain the distance. Guess what? Every time I go to the grocery store, there are a few people that do not stand on the markers. A subset of these people, when told to stand on the markers, start complaining about it.

They cannot follow such a simple rule at all. Many humans are that fucking stupid and uncooperative.