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#15081555
Tainari88 wrote:@foxdemon the problem I have with liberalism is a lack of ethics and a lack of consistency with regards to capitalism. For me? Cappies fail to acknowledge that having owners versus nonowners and having class-based systems will fail to prevent abuse and collapse. The system is innately flawed. You can't have a constitution that is radical and about equality and rights, and an economic system about subjugation and lack of rights. It is contradictory. So you wind up paying lip service to democratic ideals that don't work overtime. You got elitism and privilege and a return to class conflict. It will result in violence and instability. Even if you believe liberalism is the solution? Unless you take capitalism by the throat and change its foundations to the point that it is not capitalism anymore? You got a change. For now? inequality is going to have severe consequences. The liberalism is equally corrupt or even worse than the conservatives. It will be discarded. Got to stop the contradiction that is leading to the collapse.




So you are saying equality is vital when answering the question of who gets what, when and how. But you rely on those who make the choices being virtuous. How do you ensure that?


Note that I did not claim liberal democracy is the only solution. I deliberately leave that open, else there is no room for progress. What other examples of accountable governments can you think of that aren’t liberal democratic?

To list a few: Roman Republic, Venetian Republic, Athenian Republic. What else?

Of course none of these were saintly, as such. But they did have accountability of those in power and thus were more stable than their contempories. One reason being a larger portion of the populace is bought into the power structure.

Whereas the less accountable systems tend toward absolutism which represents only a small elite. The vast majority hold no stake in the maintain of the political order and so it is very unstable.


So how will you hold those in power to account for their decisions? How will they be replaced when they screw up? Should they ruthlessly suppress any opposition when they fail to attend to the needs of the public and tenaciously cling to power regardless?


That seems to be how socialist systems work out. All because they depend on virtuous leaders who never fail. Alas, such people do not exist in the real world. So the lack of any system of accountability turns socially systems into dystopian social order, since there is nothing to prevent those who hold power turning not tyrants.
#15081578
Massive lol at Foxdemon and his economic panics. Didn't care too much about poverty two weeks ago. Didn't you attack me for suggesting we should consider its impact in our responses?
#15081581
Yes, I think we will have a depression.

We in Europe have lived too well for the last 75 years. We forgot about the war and the hard times of the 1930s and built stable societies. We also forgot that such stability was built by the war generation and their children. The generations born from the 60s and 70s onwards have only grown up knowing stability. That's why we were not prepared for the pandemic and most likely why we won't be prepared for the economic collapse that follows.
#15081660
jimjam wrote:do you think the human race will survive?


I have studied the human race for a very long time Jimjam. Not as much as my seniors who are older anthropologists but I love that creature in the anthros part of it. I think it is up to which value system we fight to promote. Human beings are incredibly great adapters. We survive under terrible conditions. WWII Japan comes to mind. After two nukes and radiation sickness, and destroyed cities? Starvation, and problems? About a decade later Japan was on the road to a remarkable recovery. Germany after being divided? United--even from two different political bases. So many examples of the fortitude of the human spirit.

The USA acquired the land in a bloody and violent way. The way they hold on to power jimjam is about wars and using military impositions. Invasions. Japan invaded many countries in Asia. They are hated to this day in many of those nations. It is a surefire way of creating negative feelings. Invade and impose from afar. It created rebellions and resentment. I think the time for that crap should come to a close soon. And human beings can start spending money on true nation-building and in cooperative models. If the human race does that? Not only will we thrive? But we will restore the planet we depend on to a beautiful and sustaining state that works in partnership with us instead of us seeing it as a place to rape and abuse instead. It is like a beautiful and smart and caring woman the Planet Earth. A woman scorned and raped and abused? She is full of rage and hatred and she will do whatever she has to--to be free from that offense. If she is treated with love and respect and consideration? She becomes this center of honey and love and abundance that everyone enjoys being served by.

Human beings are my favorite species. Not because of the parts in which they are destructive and selfish? But when they become these enhancers of life. when they adapt and get creative and inventive and flexible and original thinkers and artistic and scientific innovators and caring and dynamic and see how they fit into the scheme of things not to dominate, control and hate....but to yield, and give and love...and through that love and caring they make life great. It is the choice of our species. Something that animals can't do because animals are instinctual only creatures with underdeveloped front lobe stuff. The animals are naturally in harmony with the natural order. They are naturally adapted and their levels of conscious choice are limited. Humans have a tiny percentage that is incredibly powerful. It is about self internal freedom. A tiny bit of us is about freedom.

That is what is the most GODLIKE aspect of humanity. That tiny bit of freedom from instinct and programming letting us create that technology, the innovation, the constant ability to adapt. But if we choose to disconnect from nature? We lose it all.

I think humans can use their freedom to nurture each other, their societies and their countries and work hard in unison for cooperative models. If they are successful? The Earth will be healed, our cities will thrive, our rural towns will flourish and we can eventually blast off into the infinite universes out there with some maturity.

Do we stay in this reptilian mentality of selfishness and fear? We will just be another species that we're unable to adapt in time and this beautiful planet will take the choices out of our hands. And it will prove that the human species wasn't the right formula for ultimate manifestation. And nature begins the process again. The beauty of nature is that it is part of an infinite process that never stops. we should understand our limits and work within it and use our amazing adaptation abilities and mature mentally and emotionally as a species.

Is there hope for the human race Jimjam? ABSOLUTELY. You are dealing with the most wondrous power on Earth. Infinite creation and life. That is the great thing in this world. We either use it to abuse it? Or we use it to preserve it and love it and be in cooperation with it. It is our choice.
#15081683
late wrote:You ever wonder what communist means? Because China doesn't look much like Soviet Russia or what Marx was talking about.

Communist means basically stripping people of their property and forcing them into poverty by force of arms while telling people it is for their own good, and that the people are being protected from capitalist oppressors. I'm not much interested in Marxian theories anymore. We have seen enough of it in practice to know that the "No True Scotsman" defense has worn thin.

late wrote:China also lacks the robust social safety net that characterises a modern socialist country.

Well, they were an economic backwater just 50 years ago--catching up in a way that differs materially from the Soviet Union.

late wrote:If you're using the old mean of socialist, China doesn't fit that, either.

We've heard people like you pushing national healthcare systems everywhere, yet you cannot or will not explain why it failed in Italy for example.

late wrote:So, basically, you didn't say anything. Which didn't escape anyone.

Oh, I think people can clearly see that the virus hit Italy like a ton of bricks and Italy has a national health service. It's not Italy's fault. It's China's fault. However, you appear to be clearly pushing the CCP propaganda platform.

Tainari88 wrote:Californians left to Colorado in large numbers when your state had financial problems. That is the migration I am talking about.

They are leaving because they cannot afford the housing or the taxes. California is about as left wing a state as there is in the US right now.

Tainari88 wrote:About the Commies spreading the virus? You should know better BJ as the son of a doctor you should know better than to blame the Chinese or the Communists for a pandemic. Pandemics can come out of any continent. Some doctors in South Korea said that it came from a bat that jumped to a livestock animal and then to humans.

Viruses can erupt like that quite rapidly. However, the government of China's behavior (the CCP) suggests the virus outbreak might have been caused by the virology lab in Wuhan--whether a mistake or deliberate is a secondary question. China actively disseminated false information leading countries around the world to think it wasn't as bad as it was.

Tainari88 wrote:If we extrapolated people should stop eating meat and would have fewer possibilities of dealing with animal-borne viruses.

Viruses can affect all life forms.

Tainari88 wrote:Don't use the originating nation or its political platform as creating the problem.

The Black Plague, SARS, H1N1 and Covid-19 have come from China. Part of that is just their geography. However, virology labs can screw things up just like the Soviet Union fucked up with Chernobyl. We could say that that could happen anywhere. However, American reactors have reactor containment. Soviet reactors didn't. How much damage was caused by Three Mile Island? Actually, very little. They actually discovered a bigger natural radiation problem in the area--Radon gas--in the aftermath. By contrast, the Chernobyl exclusion zone still has a lot of radioactive material in the area.

Tainari88 wrote:Socialism is a better system in these situations because being into rugged individualism and all that implies in these types of issues? It is inhumane. That is my point.

Uh huh. Yet, if this came from the Wuhan virology lab, just as Chernobyl was a Soviet fuck up, when are you going to admit that these "communist" or "socialist" systems that are somehow non-compliant with utopian orthodoxy that if complied with would somehow deliver utopia/nirvana/whatever may actually be no more real than a unicorn vomiting rainbows?

Tainari88 wrote:I have hope for you Relampaguito, but trying to like a man who is thinking about profiting from tragedy is very very difficult for me.

I am buying undervalued stocks. I am not overcharing people for N-95 masks. There is a big difference.

Tainari88 wrote:My son will grow up and remember the do nothings who did nothing to help. He will remember the people who did not try to set up a humane system. He will remember the high unemployment and the struggles of generations of young people who had to work as young adults under debt burdens, and medical bankruptcies and so on.

Yes, but he will not remember from you that it came from China, possibly from an unregulated wet market, and more sinisterly, possibly from the Wuhan virology lab; and that the government of China lied to the WHO, the US and EU authorities, refused help, kicked foreign reporters out of their country, and then reported that the virus had suddenly, for no particular reason, ceased transmission and everything got better; and, then very likely bribed the WHO and Western media outlets to praise China's response. That part your son will not remember.

Tainari88 wrote:Yes, Blackjack21 and others.....there are consequences for being petty, selfish, and boorish and nasty and thinking profit only is the creed humanity lives by.

I don't think that's the only creed humanity lives by. As I said, I'm buying undervalued stocks. I'm not overcharing people for medical care, which is something that has been going on for 50+ years.

Tainari88 wrote:And the ones suffering the problems will be looking for you head on a platter politically.

I rather doubt it. My gardeners didn't come the last week, but came back on Tuesday, and my privacy hedges needed trimming. They did a bit of extra work. So I gave the three of them $20 each in addition to their usual pay, because of the hardship they face. My maid came back yesterday. She didn't come for two weeks because my roommate wasn't feeling well, yet I paid her for that week too and my roommate chipped in and gave her a tip on top of it. You think you are the only one who helps the less fortunate. Only socialists do that sort of thing... right? Think again.

Tainari88 wrote:Terrorist groups with violent agendas with resentments against the elites will pop up.

Yes, and many of them will believe the lies they are being told.

jimjam wrote:Social security and Medicare have given way to massive tax reductions and a general stacking of the deck for the top 1% - 10%.

They have always been financed FICA payroll taxes, not some sort of means-tested progressive system. The reason isn't because they love taxing the poor. It's because political support for Social Security and Medicare collapses if it gets means-tested.

jimjam wrote:A few trillion in tax reductions for billionaires is followed shortly by talk of "austerity" and the "unsustainability" of Social Security.

You could confiscate all of Jeff Bezo's shares in Amazon, and it wouldn't do much to help Medicare expenses.

Tainari88 wrote:@foxdemon the problem I have with liberalism is a lack of ethics and a lack of consistency with regards to capitalism. For me? Cappies fail to acknowledge that having owners versus nonowners and having class-based systems will fail to prevent abuse and collapse. The system is innately flawed.

Yet we have already seen abuse and collapse of so-called "socialist" systems many times. You do not see the design flaw there? "It's not truly socialist/communist, because (insert excuse for failure here)."

Tainari88 wrote:You can't have a constitution that is radical and about equality and rights, and an economic system about subjugation and lack of rights. It is contradictory.

It's not subjugation in the sense of being forced into a communist collective. That's why the working classes in the US eschew communism. In this case, the economic fallout is because the establishment is so afraid of dying themselves that they've forced social distancing and shelter-in-place on everyone--even people who are not as at-risk. Notice that nobody hears from Joe Biden anymore? He will die if he gets COVID-19. Bernie Sanders is still trying to win something, so he's out there raising money for victims.

Tainari88 wrote:So you wind up paying lip service to democratic ideals that don't work overtime. You got elitism and privilege and a return to class conflict.

The working class used to have representation in the Democratic party. The Democratic party ignores the working class now in preference for free trade with China and illegal aliens flooding the US and driving wages down. This is exactly why Trump became president. In this situation, Trump should be in dire political straits, but the virus came from China, Trump acted early to stop travel from China, was criticized as racist for it and NYC residents told to go to China town, get on subways, etc. simply to defy Trump and now they have the worst outbreak in the US and are totally unprepared; similar things happened in Italy and Spain. Do you think people in Italy and Spain are going to forget the post-outbreak response of "hug Chinese people" and holding feminist rallies, because misogyny kills more than coronavirus? All this left wing "wokeness" has gotten a lot of people sick and killed. That won't be covered in the media, but even CNN has been infected pretty well by their own stupid ideas. Eventually, self-preservation may kick in and many people will dump the woke philosophy for the danger to their very own lives and livelihoods that it is.

Tainari88 wrote:Unless you take capitalism by the throat and change its foundations to the point that it is not capitalism anymore?

We are trying to change it to mixed economy nationalism, so we don't have absurd situations like medical supplies running out in the world's largest economy.

Tainari88 wrote:About a decade later Japan was on the road to a remarkable recovery. Germany after being divided? United--even from two different political bases. So many examples of the fortitude of the human spirit.

The USA acquired the land in a bloody and violent way.

Incredible. You completely omitted the Marshal Plan, Bretton Woods, and trade with the US running trade deficits to bring those countries out of poverty--nations which the US had conquered militarily without seizing their lands and lording over them militarily forever; and in the very next sentence went on to lambaste the US from 100 years earlier.
By late
#15081691
blackjack21 wrote:
1) Communist means basically stripping people of their property and forcing them into poverty by force of arms while telling people it is for their own good, and that the people are being protected from capitalist oppressors.


2) We've heard people like you pushing national healthcare systems everywhere, yet you cannot or will not explain why it failed in Italy for example.


3) It's China's fault.



4) Viruses can erupt like that quite rapidly. However, the government of China's behavior (the CCP) suggests the virus outbreak might have been caused by the virology lab in Wuhan...




1) China has capitalism, and it's a capitalist oppressor. You want it both ways, kid.

2) They were overwhelmed. But not as badly as we are being overwhelmed. Most countries have some sort of national health care now. Freaking Costa Rica has national health care. So are you saying we are Commie? (we have the VA, the ACA, Medicare, IOW multiple national heath care systems). You babble.

3) Corona is part of an ongoing series of diseases. Most come from industrial agriculture. If you wanted to do something useful, instead of spouting mindless bigotry, you'd want comprehensive reform which would nearly put an end to this.

4) Cwazy conspirathy thweory...
#15081736
blackjack21 wrote:
No, BJ what has worn very very thin is the bullshit that the trickle down neoliberal economics of capitalism is the formula for prosperity for the majority of the world's poor and struggling. It is not. It won't ever do jack shit for the working class. Why? Because the premise of capitalism is about exclusive rights. You love that fucked system and always will. I won't. Any system that says I need more power than my other fellow human being because I got the rights over some property and they don't? Because they were born fucked forever by poverty? Is SATANIC and I won't ever endorse it. Stay with that devil system. I won't. That is what that is about. Some false notions of superiority and believing in disunity and competition and negation of basic human rights. What will it lead to? Nothing good. I don't care how many fucked scenarios you think will make it better and so on. It is innately bad. Forever. Slave owners came up with all kinds of shit excuses in the 19th century for keeping it alive. Human beings are property. Nothing wrong with it. It is natural. NO IT IS NOT NATURAL. It is about some low life thinking of low thinking humans who fail to realize that people are people. Innately human and who need freedom. Because the small percentage of our species is always wanting to exercise the right to be what is in our nature to be. You go against the nature of humanity for freedom? WHY? Because some greedy assholes believed in fucking lies about how slavery is natural. They did not want to give rights to slaves because it meant they would not make money and or have the ability to make them work for free for them. You read those debates of the Confederate states versus the Union states and it is crystal clear. The confederate states wanted to keep its way of life. Not because they were worse human beings than the Unionists but because after such a long time living with lies they could not accept that change was inevitable. Capitalism could not have feudalism impeding economic progress. They were in denial. The Capitalists like you are going to be in denial til the bloody end of this fight. When they can't keep lying to themselves anymore you will see change. Even if it means that they are so narrow and tunnel visioned that they go into the change kicking and screaming (which will happen with you). It is an inhumane awful system predatory and rapacious capitalism. It is not freedom at all. It is not. Capitalism is not some natural good system. Get it through your head. It isn't natural. It is man made shit system that will be discarded completely in some unknown future date when it no longer works because it has outlived its usefulness, the same as feudalism and slavery have been outlived. They don't fit the needs of modern modes of trade and production.


Well, they were an economic backwater just 50 years ago--catching up in a way that differs materially from the Soviet Union.




You should listen to that globalist Bill Gates explanations of why Italy failed. Because pandemics are by their very nature extremely difficult to contain and to prepare for it you never had to deal with it before. Most human societies don't prepare properly for pandemics because in the past it was contained with the usual protocols. Bio-terrorism already has been practiced. WWI, WWII and in many hot zone conflicts bio weapons are used. Instead of pointing fingers and blaming the "Foreigners"for being the ones who brought the pandemic on? You should be studying how the planet is going to survive this entire reality. That shit thought of America is better has to be put away BJ. Right now the USA doesn't look like the one with the best containment system. You got liberals, conservatives, apolitical people, and everyone in every part of the political system in New York state right now dying. You want to be petty and start blaming the fucking liberals for not being racist enough to keep the Chinese who are the ones responsible out of the lily white USA fucked nationalism you promote? Look for a solution BJ. Not who to blame. If you want to survive this thing. Stop being a damn nationalist and think globally how this thing is going to be contained? But no. You don't think that way. Small thinker you are my man. Chiquito pensamiento.



What propaganda platform. You think this pandemic is about China versus the USA? It is about disease. The thing that doesn't care about borders. Just like the Black Plague in the Middle Ages it doesn't distinguish if the host is French, German, English or Italian. It just goes for death. That is the equalizing factor right there. I don't live in denial BJ. I could die in this pandemic. Any of us could. Nature is culling the herd. Viruses come from nature. It doesn't matter if it comes from bush meat or a wet market or if it comes from China and spreads. If it came from the USA pig farm bad practices and then spread to China because China and the USA has a lot of back and forth for business? Would you be as reactionary? I doubt it. Deal with it as it is. A global pandemic. Don't live in denial of what is happening. If you are angry at the Chinese enough? What is the answer? Two bombs on them like the USA did in Japan in WWII? Wipe out the Chinese and then be happy? Don't act like a man without any sense of maturity BJ. It is already here and I respect more the Mexican man I bought limes from yesterday than your immature opinions. What did he say, "Hell, I am poor on a pension. I still got to work. Who cares who started it. It is affecting all of us. I got to go to work. I can't take more of this quarantine. I got to work and try to feed my family. If it takes me? It takes me. Death is all of our destinies. I just hope a few of my family members and the children make it and keep going. Mexico got through the Spanish catastrophe and it will survive this pandemic. We have to move with the punches in life."Mexicans work hard and yet are fatalistic people. That movie from Disney Pixar "Coco"said it all. The dead are part of life. Viruses kill people. Viruses live in nature. They get unleashed and move through the interconnected contact with other humans. We congregate in groups and live socially. Something the rugged individualist selfish types don't get. They USE the group to kill and spread the virus. But you can use the group to do the opposite as well. Prosper and live. And become strong and united and interconnected for good things too. Duality of nature. Use it BJ.



For me California is a liberal capitalist state. It believes in expensive housing and bullshit. I am not into liberal exclusive shit capitalism. So I am not taking the blame for your fucked California BJ. Liberalism with high taxes and expensive homes is not my economic model. It is the state you grew up in. You are not going to change that state in terms of non whites. They are everywhere Mr BJ. Love the Asians, Latinos and Blacks because they DOMINATE in that state. Love the non whiteness and sign kumbaya....the liberals are a bunch of two faced elitists. But they are your issue. I don't go for bullshit about being class conscious and saying 'poor brown hordes' and patting black people and so on? On the head like pet dogs. Those are your peers in California to solve. Not mine. I don't like nationalistic white racists BJ. I detest them. I detest liberal hidden racists of all colors. They are everywhere there. But? I never was one of them. So? It is aint my problem.



Who knows where it originated from? The reality is that it is unleashed already. Now it is about containment. If you start in on the Chinese virus and you target all Chinese people as responsible you become a racist asshole BJ. Viruses attack living cells and take over and use the cells own DNA to replicate itself. All human races have DNA that a virus can attack. It doesn't matter if the origin is in Chinese territory, American territory, European, Latin America, African etc territory. The virus is there doing what viruses do. Blaming the Chinese? It is too late for that shit BJ. Deal with the issue now.



Equality of lethal effect. In all peoples. Don't deny nature has its equalizing ways. It doesn't care what race and what border you belong to. You are human? I will replicate your own DNA to propagate myself. Welcome to the profession of deep service. Medicine. Where racism should not be allowed. ;)



And who was the nation who actually USED nuclear weapons on its enemies so far in human history? It is only one nation. You want to hazard who is responsible for unleashing such a deadly thing on others? Not once. But twice. Should we conclude they love war more than others? Ay, BJ. You are so horrible. It doesn't matter how it starts. Let us say we contain CoVid19 and beat it? Then some hog farm in Iowa releases unwittingly some new virus jumping off of industrial unsanitary pork production for the consumption of the Chinese pork market? You got some Chinese nationalists hating Americans with a passion because the pig farm that killed 2 million Chinese in a pandemic originated in Iowa? How logical is that shit? The reality is people need to start analyzing why these things are happening? Trump is a damn fool. I hope he loses the elections. Even to that foolish choice of the Dems. Biden. A senile gaffe ridden man is better than that conman fuck from hell. He needs to go down politically. His Jared Kushner freak son in law is a fool. Talking about New York state complaining about lack of respirators. IF that old Trump could not find a respirator and he caught it? He would not want some excuse of why it is not available. You are dealing with bad values. Your conman has values in his ass BJ. Accept it.




No, you want to paint my position as some unattainable goal full of utopian bullshit. Lol. I don't promote utopian bullshit. I never have. I promote doable and sustainable proven systems. My thought process is scientific BJ. Not utopian. Universal health care is doable for all. Not something unattainable. It is ridiculous to argue against it at this time. When so many people are unemployed and even that conman president had to release some bucks to not be spanked politically. The socialism happened. Billions of funds for average joes to buy votes to bail his ass out....socialism for self interested fucks like Prez 45....he has to concede. Free kits for testing. Got to cover the ill. Got to release unemployment insurance. Lying assholes BJ saying, Ït is too expensive. And their asses are on the fireline and they reach into the socialist gov't kitty and VOILA they miraculously find the money that is impossible and try to make sure their corrupt cronies get the biggest bailout and give funds to the average people under deep pressure...proving their fake bullshit of not having the ability to print up all that fake shit when their own heads are on the chopping block BJ. Socialism is FORCED by circumstances. You lost that argument mightily BJ. They had to accept that no one buying or consuming or working spells death to capitalism as we3 know it. No one thinks their lives are secondary to making money for others who don't give a shit if they live or die because they refuse to fund universal health care. Your shitty private medicine model is in serious trouble. YES!!:lol: :D


I don't give a damn what kind of stocks you buy BJ. If enough people die and there is a great depression and people are not going to work for a long time? Who knows what happens to your undervalue. I don't own any stock and I barely have enough to make end's meet every month. What little I have I share with everyone. I don't give a fuck about money. I only have something small to pay electric bills, water, food and basic needs. Anything left over I give to Mexicans. I pay Mexican taxes. To this city. A city I like who's mayor is honest and a good administrator. I don't believe in capitalism BJ. I will go to my grave not believing in it. Period. It is a bad inhumane system. It has an expiration date. I hope it is soon. Because it SUCKS.



I answer my kid's questions as honestly as I can. But I don't teach my son to hate Chinese people because they are not white. I won't really say what I think about your xenophobic natAionalistic reptilian reactions to your face BJ. It will give me a red card. I don't teach my kid to hate Americans or Mexicans or Africans or anyone. It is not about where it originated from BJ. It is about how one must be humane no matter what conditions one lives under. Didn't you read Anne Frank's diary? Where she kept believing in humanity despite what the Nazis put her family through and despite her dying in a concentration camp. That is a hopeful attitude despite overwhelmingly bad circumstances. If you want your sons and daughters to blame the Chinese people for something that happened in a virology lab funded by government military defense intelligence? And equate governments with the entire group of average people? Go and have children of your own to brainwash BJ. Go and worry about their survivals and their food and water and their future. Pay the hard work price for having children of your own who will accept your xenophobic visions of the world. I won't foist that crap on my kid. You never decided to go and get involved with the half a million kids who are parentless in the USA--mostly due to drug addicted Americans who keep wanting drugs from Mexico, Central and South America. Continents who live in stark poverty and are forced into MINING for minerals for peanuts, and being exploited. Which in your callous heart is not important to fix. There are a whole lot of problems in the world BJ. And thinking the world is about America first and everyone else second is not a solution. Again, I am not a nationalist. Puerto Rico doesn't need independence to dominate and be selfish and imperialistic with its neighbors, NO. It needs independence to take responsibility for its own society and to have internal control of its own future. Period. To create relationships based on mutual respect. Not imposition. You need to distinguish what international relationships should be about.



You don't advocate for universal health care BJ. You should. Just because something unjust has been going on for 50+ years doesn't mean you have to keep supporting that shit. Change is needed. It is obvious with closed hotels, restaurants, airports, bus routes, trains, and every non essential business that there are millions of people who lost private health care and the ability to pay? Is it a death sentence then? In that fucked private insurance deal it is a death sentence. CHANGE is needed.



I remain unconvinced Mr Eugenics of your love for the Latin American cultures and people by your patronizing bullshit replies like the ones above. From the beginning your bullshit about paying your housemaid more is proof you respect Latinos is not convincing. For me it just means you think that is their 'natural' place in your fucked up class system society. No, I did not grow up thinking Latin Americans are about scrubbing your toilets and cutting your lawns. I grew up with two dirt poor Puerto Ricans from the working class who got advanced educations despite the system. Not because of it. For me every single one of those Latin people you pay your $20 extra dollars to? Are potential coders, doctors, lawyers, artists, scientists and everything in between. They are not born to serve you BJ. They live in circumstances that they can't really change unless the whole system is changed. I am working on changing the system for them. What are you doing? Holding on to something you think serves you well....when in reality it is going to bend and break very soon. It is not doing well serving the needs of the many. I am unconvinced of your intentions. But there is something about you BJ that is decent and clean and ethical. But it is buried under so many layers of shit? I don't know if you are aware of it.

Basta....it is a discussion for another day if we have one and come out of this pandemic alive. I only hope my son remembers I loved him if I don't make it. I am grateful. No complaints. I had a lovely life BJ. Can't complain. I like who I became. It is all good.



Your capitalist system sucks. The lie is that it is good. It is not. It is not a good system. Exclusive shit excluding people doesn't bode well for pandemics.



Tell the world that old people should be without funds to survive and no universal health care. See how long that remains popular? Whatever BJ. The Mexicans who never had social security at all ever? Are saying....they need it for surviving things like this pandemic. It is going to reinforce the need for health care and education being socialized FOREVER.


You could confiscate all of Jeff Bezo's shares in Amazon, and it wouldn't do much to help Medicare expenses.


Yet we have already seen abuse and collapse of so-called "socialist" systems many times. You do not see the design flaw there? "It's not truly socialist/communist, because (insert excuse for failure here)."


It's not subjugation in the sense of being forced into a communist collective. That's why the working classes in the US eschew communism. In this case, the economic fallout is because the establishment is so afraid of dying themselves that they've forced social distancing and shelter-in-place on everyone--even people who are not as at-risk. Notice that nobody hears from Joe Biden anymore? He will die if he gets COVID-19. Bernie Sanders is still trying to win something, so he's out there raising money for victims.




I am not a liberal. Repeat after me. I am not a liberal. I don't believe in half ass forms of coping with capitalist shit. The liberals do. Wokeness is what gets you all riled up. Nationalistic America first? Major fail. Right now Mexico produces in this city a lot of medical masks. I just bought some yesterday and antibacterial gel and so on...surgical gloves. You start insulting Mexicans and their ways of being and then beg them to sell you medical masks because the USA has to be number one? Lol. Don't you see the folly in alienating entire cultures due to stupid bigotry and racist commentary? Get with it BJ. You don't know where the saving grace invention might come from out of 189 or so nations in the world. America is only 6% of humanity. Learn some humility Relampaguito. Humildad. Una virtud.



The only people who are respected in that corrupt DC are the uber rich corporations. And they don't care about absurd situations because they are about PROFIT only. Again, change the value system or LOSE.



Why the USA did those plans and the reasoning behind them is debatable BJ. But you are not realizing? I am pro Puerto Rican independence. Not a European from the Marshall plan. You are pissing away the relationships built with Europe post WWII with nationalistic nonsense. I don't care about nationalism BJ. International socialism means cooperating for the benefit of all countries. Not just one. I don't go for selfish shit. My ethnicity is not the only one with problems, needs or deserving of equality and respect. It applies to all. Human Rights. What my mother taught me. Not my nation is the only one that counts. That crap sucks. It does.

The end. Mr. Quote bomb man. Relampaguito. Have some babies and work your ass off supporting them. Leave your property to nice people you trust in case the Corona thing kills you in the future BJ. We are not meant to live forever. Live and Let Die.

A video for you:

#15081743
@blackjack21 :

You should listen to that globalist Bill Gates explanations of why Italy failed. Because pandemics are by their very nature extremely difficult to contain and to prepare for it you never had to deal with it before. Most human societies don't prepare properly for pandemics because in the past it was contained with the usual protocols. Bio-terrorism already has been practiced. WWI, WWII and in many hot zone conflicts bio weapons are used. Instead of pointing fingers and blaming the "Foreigners"for being the ones who brought the pandemic on? You should be studying how the planet is going to survive this entire reality. That shit thought of America is better has to be put away BJ. Right now the USA doesn't look like the one with the best containment system. You got liberals, conservatives, apolitical people, and everyone in every part of the political system in New York state right now dying. You want to be petty and start blaming the fucking liberals for not being racist enough to keep the Chinese who are the ones responsible out of the lily white USA fucked nationalism you promote? Look for a solution BJ. Not who to blame. If you want to survive this thing. Stop being a damn nationalist and think globally how this thing is going to be contained? But no. You don't think that way. Small thinker you are my man. Chiquito pensamiento.



What propaganda platform. You think this pandemic is about China versus the USA? It is about disease. The thing that doesn't care about borders. Just like the Black Plague in the Middle Ages it doesn't distinguish if the host is French, German, English or Italian. It just goes for death. That is the equalizing factor right there. I don't live in denial BJ. I could die in this pandemic. Any of us could. Nature is culling the herd. Viruses come from nature. It doesn't matter if it comes from bush meat or a wet market or if it comes from China and spreads. If it came from the USA pig farm bad practices and then spread to China because China and the USA has a lot of back and forth for business? Would you be as reactionary? I doubt it. Deal with it as it is. A global pandemic. Don't live in denial of what is happening. If you are angry at the Chinese enough? What is the answer? Two bombs on them like the USA did in Japan in WWII? Wipe out the Chinese and then be happy? Don't act like a man without any sense of maturity BJ. It is already here and I respect more the Mexican man I bought limes from yesterday than your immature opinions. What did he say, "Hell, I am poor on a pension. I still got to work. Who cares who started it. It is affecting all of us. I got to go to work. I can't take more of this quarantine. I got to work and try to feed my family. If it takes me? It takes me. Death is all of our destinies. I just hope a few of my family members and the children make it and keep going. Mexico got through the Spanish catastrophe and it will survive this pandemic. We have to move with the punches in life."Mexicans work hard and yet are fatalistic people. That movie from Disney Pixar "Coco"said it all. The dead are part of life. Viruses kill people. Viruses live in nature. They get unleashed and move through the interconnected contact with other humans. We congregate in groups and live socially. Something the rugged individualist selfish types don't get. They USE the group to kill and spread the virus. But you can use the group to do the opposite as well. Prosper and live. And become strong and united and interconnected for good things too. Duality of nature. Use it BJ.



For me California is a liberal capitalist state. It believes in expensive housing and bullshit. I am not into liberal exclusive shit capitalism. So I am not taking the blame for your fucked California BJ. Liberalism with high taxes and expensive homes is not my economic model. It is the state you grew up in. You are not going to change that state in terms of non whites. They are everywhere Mr BJ. Love the Asians, Latinos and Blacks because they DOMINATE in that state. Love the non whiteness and sign kumbaya....the liberals are a bunch of two faced elitists. But they are your issue. I don't go for bullshit about being class conscious and saying 'poor brown hordes' and patting black people and so on? On the head like pet dogs. Those are your peers in California to solve. Not mine. I don't like nationalistic white racists BJ. I detest them. I detest liberal hidden racists of all colors. They are everywhere there. But? I never was one of them. So? It is aint my problem.



Who knows where it originated from? The reality is that it is unleashed already. Now it is about containment. If you start in on the Chinese virus and you target all Chinese people as responsible you become a racist asshole BJ. Viruses attack living cells and take over and use the cells own DNA to replicate itself. All human races have DNA that a virus can attack. It doesn't matter if the origin is in Chinese territory, American territory, European, Latin America, African etc territory. The virus is there doing what viruses do. Blaming the Chinese? It is too late for that shit BJ. Deal with the issue now.



Equality of lethal effect. In all peoples. Don't deny nature has its equalizing ways. It doesn't care what race and what border you belong to. You are human? I will replicate your own DNA to propagate myself. Welcome to the profession of deep service. Medicine. Where racism should not be allowed. ;)



And who was the nation who actually USED nuclear weapons on its enemies so far in human history? It is only one nation. You want to hazard who is responsible for unleashing such a deadly thing on others? Not once. But twice. Should we conclude they love war more than others? Ay, BJ. You are so horrible. It doesn't matter how it starts. Let us say we contain CoVid19 and beat it? Then some hog farm in Iowa releases unwittingly some new virus jumping off of industrial unsanitary pork production for the consumption of the Chinese pork market? You got some Chinese nationalists hating Americans with a passion because the pig farm that killed 2 million Chinese in a pandemic originated in Iowa? How logical is that shit? The reality is people need to start analyzing why these things are happening? Trump is a damn fool. I hope he loses the elections. Even to that foolish choice of the Dems. Biden. A senile gaffe ridden man is better than that conman fuck from hell. He needs to go down politically. His Jared Kushner freak son in law is a fool. Talking about New York state complaining about lack of respirators. IF that old Trump could not find a respirator and he caught it? He would not want some excuse of why it is not available. You are dealing with bad values. Your conman has values in his ass BJ. Accept it.




No, you want to paint my position as some unattainable goal full of utopian bullshit. Lol. I don't promote utopian bullshit. I never have. I promote doable and sustainable proven systems. My thought process is scientific BJ. Not utopian. Universal health care is doable for all. Not something unattainable. It is ridiculous to argue against it at this time. When so many people are unemployed and even that conman president had to release some bucks to not be spanked politically. The socialism happened. Billions of funds for average joes to buy votes to bail his ass out....socialism for self interested fucks like Prez 45....he has to concede. Free kits for testing. Got to cover the ill. Got to release unemployment insurance. Lying assholes BJ saying, Ït is too expensive. And their asses are on the fireline and they reach into the socialist gov't kitty and VOILA they miraculously find the money that is impossible and try to make sure their corrupt cronies get the biggest bailout and give funds to the average people under deep pressure...proving their fake bullshit of not having the ability to print up all that fake shit when their own heads are on the chopping block BJ. Socialism is FORCED by circumstances. You lost that argument mightily BJ. They had to accept that no one buying or consuming or working spells death to capitalism as we3 know it. No one thinks their lives are secondary to making money for others who don't give a shit if they live or die because they refuse to fund universal health care. Your shitty private medicine model is in serious trouble. YES!!:lol: :D


I don't give a damn what kind of stocks you buy BJ. If enough people die and there is a great depression and people are not going to work for a long time? Who knows what happens to your undervalue. I don't own any stock and I barely have enough to make end's meet every month. What little I have I share with everyone. I don't give a fuck about money. I only have something small to pay electric bills, water, food and basic needs. Anything left over I give to Mexicans. I pay Mexican taxes. To this city. A city I like who's mayor is honest and a good administrator. I don't believe in capitalism BJ. I will go to my grave not believing in it. Period. It is a bad inhumane system. It has an expiration date. I hope it is soon. Because it SUCKS.



I answer my kid's questions as honestly as I can. But I don't teach my son to hate Chinese people because they are not white. I won't really say what I think about your xenophobic natAionalistic reptilian reactions to your face BJ. It will give me a red card. I don't teach my kid to hate Americans or Mexicans or Africans or anyone. It is not about where it originated from BJ. It is about how one must be humane no matter what conditions one lives under. Didn't you read Anne Frank's diary? Where she kept believing in humanity despite what the Nazis put her family through and despite her dying in a concentration camp. That is a hopeful attitude despite overwhelmingly bad circumstances. If you want your sons and daughters to blame the Chinese people for something that happened in a virology lab funded by government military defense intelligence? And equate governments with the entire group of average people? Go and have children of your own to brainwash BJ. Go and worry about their survivals and their food and water and their future. Pay the hard work price for having children of your own who will accept your xenophobic visions of the world. I won't foist that crap on my kid. You never decided to go and get involved with the half a million kids who are parentless in the USA--mostly due to drug addicted Americans who keep wanting drugs from Mexico, Central and South America. Continents who live in stark poverty and are forced into MINING for minerals for peanuts, and being exploited. Which in your callous heart is not important to fix. There are a whole lot of problems in the world BJ. And thinking the world is about America first and everyone else second is not a solution. Again, I am not a nationalist. Puerto Rico doesn't need independence to dominate and be selfish and imperialistic with its neighbors, NO. It needs independence to take responsibility for its own society and to have internal control of its own future. Period. To create relationships based on mutual respect. Not imposition. You need to distinguish what international relationships should be about.



You don't advocate for universal health care BJ. You should. Just because something unjust has been going on for 50+ years doesn't mean you have to keep supporting that shit. Change is needed. It is obvious with closed hotels, restaurants, airports, bus routes, trains, and every non essential business that there are millions of people who lost private health care and the ability to pay? Is it a death sentence then? In that fucked private insurance deal it is a death sentence. CHANGE is needed.



I remain unconvinced Mr Eugenics of your love for the Latin American cultures and people by your patronizing bullshit replies like the ones above. From the beginning your bullshit about paying your housemaid more is proof you respect Latinos is not convincing. For me it just means you think that is their 'natural' place in your fucked up class system society. No, I did not grow up thinking Latin Americans are about scrubbing your toilets and cutting your lawns. I grew up with two dirt poor Puerto Ricans from the working class who got advanced educations despite the system. Not because of it. For me every single one of those Latin people you pay your $20 extra dollars to? Are potential coders, doctors, lawyers, artists, scientists and everything in between. They are not born to serve you BJ. They live in circumstances that they can't really change unless the whole system is changed. I am working on changing the system for them. What are you doing? Holding on to something you think serves you well....when in reality it is going to bend and break very soon. It is not doing well serving the needs of the many. I am unconvinced of your intentions. But there is something about you BJ that is decent and clean and ethical. But it is buried under so many layers of shit? I don't know if you are aware of it.

Basta....it is a discussion for another day if we have one and come out of this pandemic alive. I only hope my son remembers I loved him if I don't make it. I am grateful. No complaints. I had a lovely life BJ. Can't complain. I like who I became. It is all good.



Your capitalist system sucks. The lie is that it is good. It is not. It is not a good system. Exclusive shit excluding people doesn't bode well for pandemics.



Tell the world that old people should be without funds to survive and no universal health care. See how long that remains popular? Whatever BJ. The Mexicans who never had social security at all ever? Are saying....they need it for surviving things like this pandemic. It is going to reinforce the need for health care and education being socialized FOREVER.


You could confiscate all of Jeff Bezo's shares in Amazon, and it wouldn't do much to help Medicare expenses.


Yet we have already seen abuse and collapse of so-called "socialist" systems many times. You do not see the design flaw there? "It's not truly socialist/communist, because (insert excuse for failure here)."


It's not subjugation in the sense of being forced into a communist collective. That's why the working classes in the US eschew communism. In this case, the economic fallout is because the establishment is so afraid of dying themselves that they've forced social distancing and shelter-in-place on everyone--even people who are not as at-risk. Notice that nobody hears from Joe Biden anymore? He will die if he gets COVID-19. Bernie Sanders is still trying to win something, so he's out there raising money for victims.




I am not a liberal. Repeat after me. I am not a liberal. I don't believe in half ass forms of coping with capitalist shit. The liberals do. Wokeness is what gets you all riled up. Nationalistic America first? Major fail. Right now Mexico produces in this city a lot of medical masks. I just bought some yesterday and antibacterial gel and so on...surgical gloves. You start insulting Mexicans and their ways of being and then beg them to sell you medical masks because the USA has to be number one? Lol. Don't you see the folly in alienating entire cultures due to stupid bigotry and racist commentary? Get with it BJ. You don't know where the saving grace invention might come from out of 189 or so nations in the world. America is only 6% of humanity. Learn some humility Relampaguito. Humildad. Una virtud.



The only people who are respected in that corrupt DC are the uber rich corporations. And they don't care about absurd situations because they are about PROFIT only. Again, change the value system or LOSE.

[/quote]

Why the USA did those plans and the reasoning behind them is debatable BJ. But you are not realizing? I am pro Puerto Rican independence. Not a European from the Marshall plan. You are pissing away the relationships built with Europe post WWII with nationalistic nonsense. I don't care about nationalism BJ. International socialism means cooperating for the benefit of all countries. Not just one. I don't go for selfish shit. My ethnicity is not the only one with problems, needs or deserving of equality and respect. It applies to all. Human Rights. What my mother taught me. Not my nation is the only one that counts. That crap sucks. It does.

The end. Mr. Quote bomb man. Relampaguito. Have some babies and work your ass off supporting them. Leave your property to nice people you trust in case the Corona thing kills you in the future BJ. We are not meant to live forever. Live and Let Die.

A video for you:



My replies @blackjack21 are disappearing due to a glitch. I tried to save what I could. Asi es. Tecnologia no funciona como deberia. Technology doesn't function sometimes. Codes go haywire. They need to be fixed! Hee hee.
#15081778
B0ycey wrote:Massive lol at Foxdemon and his economic panics. Didn't care too much about poverty two weeks ago. Didn't you attack me for suggesting we should consider its impact in our responses?



Still trying to distance yourself from what was basically a sociopathic position?

I did not at any point attack you for considering economic impacts. It was your insistence that the interests of the vulnerable (the elderly specifically) should be ignored in favour of economic interests.
#15081814
foxdemon wrote:Still trying to distance yourself from what was basically a sociopathic position?

I did not at any point attack you for considering economic impacts. It was your insistence that the interests of the vulnerable (the elderly specifically) should be ignored in favour of economic interests.


My position was always to limit the economic impact. If health was the only factor we all should be in complete quarantine now. I said that right from the start. And you said I just want to win the stocks. And now you sing from a different hymn sheet. :roll:
#15081849
late wrote:1) China has capitalism, and it's a capitalist oppressor. You want it both ways, kid.

Sure. Whatever.

late wrote:2) They were overwhelmed. But not as badly as we are being overwhelmed.

You mean they weren't prepared? They have a greater per capita death toll than the US. Why is that with the sheer superiority of a national health service? What makes them so superior?

New York City is overwhelmed perhaps. Could Mark Dice have a point here:


late wrote:3) Corona is part of an ongoing series of diseases.

Ah. China denialism. Now we see where your loyalties lie.

late wrote:you'd want comprehensive reform which would nearly put an end to this.

I do. I want to decouple the US economy from China.

late wrote:4) Cwazy conspirathy thweory...



I'll bet you believe that Coronavirus stopped immediately in China and there are no new cases and no new deaths.

Tainari88 wrote:Right now the USA doesn't look like the one with the best containment system. You got liberals, conservatives, apolitical people, and everyone in every part of the political system in New York state right now dying.

And why is New York so hard hit? Is it because their mayor and health commissioner said it was no problem. No need to take precautions. Go to Chinese New Year parades, take the subway, New Yorkers are strong and we're ready for this, etc.? Very evidently, they were not prepared and didn't take good precautions. California had some of the first reported cases and we're doing much better than New York.

Tainari88 wrote:Stop being a damn nationalist and think globally how this thing is going to be contained?

It wasn't contained, because China lied to the WHO and to the US and EU authorities, assuring them that everything was just fine. Those same authorities repeated that to their populations, trusting the Chinese Communist Party to tell the truth.

Tainari88 wrote:That is the equalizing factor right there. I don't live in denial BJ. I could die in this pandemic. Any of us could.

Yes, but your chances would have been much better if China had not calculated that they would be better off letting it spread to the rest of the world, which is clearly what they did.

Tainari88 wrote:Nature is culling the herd.

I don't disagree with that entirely.

Tainari88 wrote:If it came from the USA pig farm bad practices and then spread to China because China and the USA has a lot of back and forth for business? Would you be as reactionary? I doubt it.

Reactionary? I've been saying the same thing for years. It's not something new. I would be down on the USDA if they lied about outbreaks and let it spread to the whole population of the US and then the world. I've been down on the FBI and CIA since before Trump took office, for example.

Tainari88 wrote:If you start in on the Chinese virus and you target all Chinese people as responsible you become a racist asshole BJ.

I haven't targeted all Chinese people. Have you heard me blame Hong Kong, Macao or Taiwan? Or Chinese diaspora? No. I blame the Chinese Communist Party, not even all Chinese nationals. I blame the communists.

Tainari88 wrote:Equality of lethal effect. In all peoples. Don't deny nature has its equalizing ways.

I don't deny it at all. I'm pointing out that a bunch of old Democrats like @late are scared shitless while defending the practices that made it possible.

Tainari88 wrote:Then some hog farm in Iowa releases unwittingly some new virus jumping off of industrial unsanitary pork production for the consumption of the Chinese pork market? You got some Chinese nationalists hating Americans with a passion because the pig farm that killed 2 million Chinese in a pandemic originated in Iowa?

China routinely excludes US products on those types of alleged fears in spite of USDA controls and China's own government controls. By contrast, the US doesn't. The UK even does that, as it won't accept chicken disinfected with chlorine.

Tainari88 wrote:A senile gaffe ridden man is better than that conman fuck from hell.

Ha ha ha! I'm sure you'd regret that if Biden won.

Tainari88 wrote:Talking about New York state complaining about lack of respirators.

Both New York City and New York State were clearly unprepared, but as shown in the video above, they claimed that they were tough and they were prepared. They clearly weren't.

Tainari88 wrote:Socialism is FORCED by circumstances.

It's not socialism, as you will surely point out when your blind rage subsides. They are merely bailing out bond holders so that their own pensions and the banks don't go down again.

Tainari88 wrote:They had to accept that no one buying or consuming or working spells death to capitalism as we3 know it.

It doesn't. It spells the death of consumerism as we know it. That's why cruise line shares are down 80%.

Tainari88 wrote:Because it SUCKS.

The Chinese Communist Party sucks even worse.

Taianri88 wrote:But I don't teach my son to hate Chinese people because they are not white.

Who said anything about teaching your son to hate Chinese people because they are not white? I spoke of the origin of a virus, possibly from an unregulated wet market in Wuhan China, or more sinisterly its virology lab. China's behavior suggests it came from the virology lab.

Tainari88 wrote:It is not about where it originated from BJ.

If you're serious about containment, it absolutely matters. The Chinese Communist Party certainly knew it too, and they chose to lie to the WHO, the US and EU and assure everyone that it was okay. For that, you are all atwitter about American capitalism?

Tainari88 wrote:Didn't you read Anne Frank's diary?

Not only that, I've been to the house where she lived in the attic. Have you?

Tainari88 wrote:mostly due to drug addicted Americans who keep wanting drugs from Mexico, Central and South America.

Ah, so there's no moral stain to supplying drugs to the drug addicted, is that how it works?

Tainari88 wrote:I remain unconvinced Mr Eugenics of your love for the Latin American cultures and people by your patronizing bullshit replies like the ones above.

Me, Mr Eugenics? @late is the resident progressive here.

Tainari88 wrote:For me it just means you think that is their 'natural' place in your fucked up class system society.

Oh. I see. So when poor Mexicans offer to do work for you, and you pay them, then you are virtuous. If I pay them, even for work they didn't do, because of a lock down, I am a terrible person because I don't think Erich Fromm's ideas are attainable? :roll: :knife:
By late
#15081865
blackjack21 wrote:
1) Sure. Whatever.


2) You mean they weren't prepared? They have a greater per capita death toll than the US. Why is that with the sheer superiority of a national health service? What makes them so superior?


3) Ah. China denialism. Now we see where your loyalties lie.


4) I do. I want to decouple the US economy from China.






1) And you haven't changed, so is China a capitalist oppressor or Commie? Are we Commie? According to what you said we are. If you are able to make a choice, do so, and stick with it.

2a) Point is, Italy has a good health care system. In one ranking they came in second, while we came in 37th...
https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/best-healthcare-in-the-world/

2b) We aren't done making our situation worse.

3) Hardly. Once again you are saying you know more than scientists.

4) I couldn't find anyone advocating that much crazy. China holds onto a ton of American money. Cut all trade, and they dump dollars. Do you have any idea what that would do? We import over half our food. Suddenly that food would be 2 to 4 times as expensive. If we did that now, while we are in recession, we would get a Great Depression. Most people would like to see better management of trade. Companies like Walmart have been getting nearly all they want, which is a crap policy. But you're throwing the baby and Mom's heart, brain, lungs, liver and kidneys out with the bathwater. It's suicidal.

You don't understand the biology or the economics. At all.
#15081873
late wrote:I couldn't find anyone advocating that much crazy. China holds onto a ton of American money. Cut all trade, and they dump dollars. Do you have any idea what that would do? We import over half our food. Suddenly that food would be 2 to 4 times as expensive. If we did that now, while we are in recession, we would get a Great Depression. Most people would like to see better management of trade. Companies like Walmart have been getting nearly all they want, which is a crap policy. But you're throwing the baby and Mom's heart, brain, lungs, liver and kidneys out with the bathwater. It's suicidal.

You don't understand the biology or the economics. At all.



I understand the above point.

However, as long as the United States control (1) the shipping of oil and, (2) the technology of oil refining (allegedly China does not), anyone dumping the dollar now is probably more suicidal than any US government daring them to do so, because the US dollar still holds more credit value (and definitely more credible than Renminbi, otherwise the Chinese would have terminated HK dollar, which is pegged with the US dollar, without consequences!)
By late
#15081881
Patrickov wrote:
However, as long as the United States control (1) the shipping of oil and, (2) the technology of oil refining (allegedly China does not), anyone dumping the dollar now is probably more suicidal than any US government daring them to do so, because the US dollar still holds more credit value (and definitely more credible than Renminbi, otherwise the Chinese would have terminated HK dollar, which is pegged with the US dollar, without consequences!)



Yes, dumping their dollars would hurt China, as well as America. But cutting off all trade would be a disaster for China. It's the only counter-move they would have, and they would use it.

They don't get their oil from the USA, last time I looked, they were getting it from the ME. They could, and prob would, use those dollars to buy long term contracts. They have a good relationship with the Saudi.
#15082020
blackjack21 wrote:Sure. Whatever.


You mean they weren't prepared? They have a greater per capita death toll than the US. Why is that with the sheer superiority of a national health service? What makes them so superior?

New York City is overwhelmed perhaps. Could Mark Dice have a point here:



Ah. China denialism. Now we see where your loyalties lie.


I do. I want to decouple the US economy from China.




I'll bet you believe that Coronavirus stopped immediately in China and there are no new cases and no new deaths.


And why is New York so hard hit? Is it because their mayor and health commissioner said it was no problem. No need to take precautions. Go to Chinese New Year parades, take the subway, New Yorkers are strong and we're ready for this, etc.? Very evidently, they were not prepared and didn't take good precautions. California had some of the first reported cases and we're doing much better than New York.


It wasn't contained, because China lied to the WHO and to the US and EU authorities, assuring them that everything was just fine. Those same authorities repeated that to their populations, trusting the Chinese Communist Party to tell the truth.


Yes, but your chances would have been much better if China had not calculated that they would be better off letting it spread to the rest of the world, which is clearly what they did.


I don't disagree with that entirely.


Reactionary? I've been saying the same thing for years. It's not something new. I would be down on the USDA if they lied about outbreaks and let it spread to the whole population of the US and then the world. I've been down on the FBI and CIA since before Trump took office, for example.


I haven't targeted all Chinese people. Have you heard me blame Hong Kong, Macao or Taiwan? Or Chinese diaspora? No. I blame the Chinese Communist Party, not even all Chinese nationals. I blame the communists.


I don't deny it at all. I'm pointing out that a bunch of old Democrats like @late are scared shitless while defending the practices that made it possible.


China routinely excludes US products on those types of alleged fears in spite of USDA controls and China's own government controls. By contrast, the US doesn't. The UK even does that, as it won't accept chicken disinfected with chlorine.


Ha ha ha! I'm sure you'd regret that if Biden won.


Both New York City and New York State were clearly unprepared, but as shown in the video above, they claimed that they were tough and they were prepared. They clearly weren't.


It's not socialism, as you will surely point out when your blind rage subsides. They are merely bailing out bond holders so that their own pensions and the banks don't go down again.


It doesn't. It spells the death of consumerism as we know it. That's why cruise line shares are down 80%.


The Chinese Communist Party sucks even worse.


Who said anything about teaching your son to hate Chinese people because they are not white? I spoke of the origin of a virus, possibly from an unregulated wet market in Wuhan China, or more sinisterly its virology lab. China's behavior suggests it came from the virology lab.


If you're serious about containment, it absolutely matters. The Chinese Communist Party certainly knew it too, and they chose to lie to the WHO, the US and EU and assure everyone that it was okay. For that, you are all atwitter about American capitalism?


Not only that, I've been to the house where she lived in the attic. Have you?


Ah, so there's no moral stain to supplying drugs to the drug addicted, is that how it works?


Me, Mr Eugenics? @late is the resident progressive here.


Oh. I see. So when poor Mexicans offer to do work for you, and you pay them, then you are virtuous. If I pay them, even for work they didn't do, because of a lock down, I am a terrible person because I don't think Erich Fromm's ideas are attainable? :roll: :knife:


Ay Blackjack21 do you have any damn clue how many fucked excuses you come up with for that asshole 45? Lying all day and every day. I have no illusions he is part of the capitalism scene. If I had to come up with a cartoon caricature of an immoral piece of shit Yankee ass capitalist that is uber narcissistic and incapable of human empathy? That man is the culmination of it all. You think he is a useful tool. He is a problem. Lack of organization. Did you know that Mexico produces masks, anti bacterial gel and so on and Trump still hasn't gotten the memo he needs to lift restrictions because it is causing delays at the border? He is an incompetent bungler. The Ricans found out in Hurricane Maria. But you folks mainland think it is not true. He is a damn incompetent with high turnover in his administration and shit for administration skills. That alone is what has everyone up in arms about Trump in the DC community. Period.

About the National Health Service? The issue was pointed out by Drlee. The USA has hospitals, equipment to treat people and so on. It is ACC$ESS that is the major issue Bj. Because it is about for profit shit. That is it. Change the value system.

I don't believe the PRC deliberately wanted to spread the virus. I think they did the same stupid shit that the New York State people did. Everything is ok and let us save face. It is about bat meat sold. It could be next few years about pig farms in Iowa. I saw a documentary and that stuff is a recipe for another virus outbreak in the USA. Do you think a Trump administration would not try to lie and cover their asses about it? They would. I don't trust capitalist bullshit. I never will. It is all about MONEY and profits from human beings. Horrific in the worst way values they have. That is the bottom line. Greed is the name of the game. I hate that system that keeps colonies for profit making for banks, it pollutes lands and uses people for guinea pigs to win wars that have nothing to do with other nations and other people. I went to buy some food today and the men in the parking lot think it is all some power play plot between China and the USA and they want to be left out of the stupid power struggle. Lol. People are into conspiracy theories big time in Mexico. Haha. I asked them who they would root for if it came to the PRC vs the USA? They all said, "We hate the Donald Trump anti Mexican. We hope Chinese spies off him." Yes, creating enemies in every place with his racist shit mouth. That is what that leads to. He is not a racist. He is a nice guy. Go tell that to Mexicans. They don't think he is not a racist. I think he is a racist pig president. I don't want him to make more bungling shit decisions. Biden sucks. Those two parties need to go. And a third party needs to take over without some sellouts in charge. That is what needs to happen. But who knows when that will happen? No se nada de cuando eso ocurriera.

No BJ I did not go to Amsterdam. I have never been to Europe. Not once. My entire travels have been about Latin America, the Caribbean and the Americas. But I read....what was that young woman's story? People are more than just dark and ugly racist shitty thoughts. You got to not lose your humanity with all this crap that happens. I have reasons for being angry as hell with Imperialistic lying pieces of shit who try to destroy your nation for their own selfish vain purposes. Yet I keep thinking, the government doesn't represent the entire country and there is hope for the future. Otherwise violence is the answer to all that bad governance. And that is a bad thing. But trying to get past assholes who only care about their nation and not about other people and see humans differently according to their own narrow views? It takes a hell of a lot of patience because they are blind as bats about other groups and other people dealing with problems. Foolish people BJ. It is pensamiento chiquito.

I am tired the heat got to me. I am going to rest and then come back and answer more things later.

Sellouts. Look what happens when you put money, images, false fronts of 'we are in control'etc? Why is it critical to have ethical people in positions of power? Precisely for these situations.

I am so incredibly tired battling the mentality behind greed. Greed kills people. It does. Every day it kills someone. When are we going to stop putting greed in the driver's seat for public policies? I don't know. When people start mobilizing for generosity and human dignity in medicine above greed. That is when.

Well, the streets are quiet and I am happy. I am making a lovely rice dish for dinner. I am grateful for everything. Never thought I could make it happen after all the shit that happened to me in Colorado. I got it done. Exito al final. Estoy agradecida.

Relampaguito have you ever been in love at all? It is the best feeling in the world. You are flying and have no sense of time...it is like every reason for being alive becomes clear. Nothing selfish enters your head. I wonder if my son will be in love like that someday?

Life is duality. The dark and the light going back and forth. It is a dance...un baile, o una danza. Un libertango...that is life. My namesake. Hee hee. My father and I used to dance together so well and had so much fun....together. La vida. One must live it BJ.

#15082078
late wrote:1) And you haven't changed, so is China a capitalist oppressor or Commie? Are we Commie? According to what you said we are. If you are able to make a choice, do so, and stick with it.

China is industrialist, run by a communist party.

late wrote:2a) Point is, Italy has a good health care system. In one ranking they came in second, while we came in 37th...
https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... the-world/

Nevertheless, your point that national health systems are somehow better in a pandemic has proven false.

late wrote:2b) We aren't done making our situation worse.

I will concede that you aren't done whining about Donald Trump.

late wrote:3) Hardly. Once again you are saying you know more than scientists.

Science is just a method of knowledge. Scientists don't necessarily "know" more than everyone else.

late wrote:4) I couldn't find anyone advocating that much crazy. China holds onto a ton of American money. Cut all trade, and they dump dollars. Do you have any idea what that would do?

Not necessarily. If they dump dollars, they destroy the competitiveness of their export markets.

late wrote:We import over half our food. Suddenly that food would be 2 to 4 times as expensive.

So? Out of season fruits and so forth are nice, but they aren't necessities.

late wrote:If we did that now, while we are in recession, we would get a Great Depression.

Not likely. During the Great Depression, food prices were depressed.

late wrote:But you're throwing the baby and Mom's heart, brain, lungs, liver and kidneys out with the bathwater. It's suicidal.

It's not suicidal. Only 7% of US GDP involves merchandise trade. We're not as dependent on trade as China (40% of GDP), Germany (50% of GDP), etc.

Patrickov wrote:However, as long as the United States control (1) the shipping of oil and, (2) the technology of oil refining (allegedly China does not), anyone dumping the dollar now is probably more suicidal than any US government daring them to do so, because the US dollar still holds more credit value (and definitely more credible than Renminbi, otherwise the Chinese would have terminated HK dollar, which is pegged with the US dollar, without consequences!)

Right. The crude oil market is in massive contango. If China were smart, they would be using US dollar reserves to buy and store as much crude oil as they can.

late wrote:They don't get their oil from the USA, last time I looked, they were getting it from the ME. They could, and prob would, use those dollars to buy long term contracts. They have a good relationship with the Saudi.

Buying long-term contracts would be idiotic when they can buy oil for 50% off in the spot market. Everyone who can is buying crude at spot and selling long-term contracts at $50+ a barrel. :roll:

Tainari88 wrote:Ay Blackjack21 do you have any damn clue how many fucked excuses you come up with for that asshole 45?

I really don't care about Trump or how many lies he tells. I care about policies.

Tainari88 wrote:I have no illusions he is part of the capitalism scene.

:roll: I've never said he wasn't a capitalist. I've said he's not part of the Washington establishment--which is precisely why they hate him.

Tainari88 wrote:You think he is a useful tool.

For my purposes, yes.

Tainari88 wrote:That alone is what has everyone up in arms about Trump in the DC community. Period.

Uh huh, and that's why they made up the phony Russia narrative, right?

Tainari88 wrote:I don't trust capitalist bullshit. I never will.

And yet your are so understanding of the Chinese Communist Party...

Tainari88 wrote:Sellouts. Look what happens when you put money, images, false fronts of 'we are in control'etc? Why is it critical to have ethical people in positions of power? Precisely for these situations.

Yes, but your main lament is Donald Trump. Most major cities in the US are run by Democrats. They are in control of most of the first responders. That's where the first stage of crisis planning starts; then, it involves the state government. The federal government is a last resort. The federal government can make up for short falls and a loss of critical supplies in local disasters. It doesn't maintain a stockpile for every business in the entire country.

I've worked in supply chain management. I know how they think. Unused inventory is considered a misallocation of capital--waste. That's why they don't have the supplies on hand. They even started moving medical device manufacturing overseas to evade the ObamaCare medical device tax. You can just scream "greed" if that makes you feel better, but it is not going to help shape behavior.

Tainari88 wrote:Every day it kills someone. When are we going to stop putting greed in the driver's seat for public policies? I don't know. When people start mobilizing for generosity and human dignity in medicine above greed. That is when.

You're fighting the reptilian brain, which your man says always wins. You basically need to sell disaster preparedness as greed by showing the financial losses associated with being unprepared.
#15082104
Political Interest wrote:Yes, I think we will have a depression.

We in Europe have lived too well for the last 75 years. We forgot about the war and the hard times of the 1930s and built stable societies. We also forgot that such stability was built by the war generation and their children. The generations born from the 60s and 70s onwards have only grown up knowing stability. That's why we were not prepared for the pandemic and most likely why we won't be prepared for the economic collapse that follows.

I found the economic collapse rather easily predicted: An unhealthy (for society) proportion of the wealth has been flowing to the top 1% for some time now. A fake "prosperity" held together by abject greed and debt is being sold to the peons. A low unemployment rate held up by low paying shit jobs. It was simply a matter of time before the whole farce fell thru the ice and ……………. nothing like a worldwide epidemic to end the party. This is a bad one. We are living thru history. Poor Obese Donald. He thought that all he had to do was brag about his fake prosperity and endlessly insult whoever the Dems came up with. Now he is faced with endless opportunities to display his incompetence.
By late
#15082165
blackjack21 wrote:
1) China is industrialist, run by a communist party.


2) Nevertheless, your point that national health systems are somehow better in a pandemic has proven false.


3) Not necessarily. If they dump dollars, they destroy the competitiveness of their export markets.


4) So? Out of season fruits and so forth are nice, but they aren't necessities.


5) Buying long-term contracts would be idiotic when they can buy oil for 50% off in the spot market. Everyone who can is buying crude at spot and selling long-term contracts at $50+ a barrel.



6) They even started moving medical device manufacturing overseas to evade the ObamaCare medical device tax. You can just scream "greed" if that makes you feel better, but it is not going to help shape behavior.






1) Answering my question would have been rather awkward for you... Going by what you've said, we're Commies, England is Commie, is there a country besides Somalia that isn't Commie???

2) Letting a part of the populace go without health care helps spread the disease. This is what is known as a fact.

3) You are proposing economic armageddon. Dumping dollars would be the obvious response.

4) That was an example of how the disruption would hit people hard. It is probable your economic suicide attempt would set off what economists fear most, a fast deflationary spiral into a great depression.

5) Buying long term contracts would allow them to cushion the blow while still dumping dollars. If you think China couldn't negotiate better terms...

6) Even you should be able to figure out the fix for that one.

Again, no one supports your crazy... I've asked you this before, find me people with skin in the game that are advocating economic suicide.
#15082241
The abrupt halt of commercial activity threatens to impose economic pain so profound and enduring in every region of the world at once that recovery could take years. The losses to companies, many already saturated with debt, risk triggering a financial crisis of cataclysmic proportions. “Now, anywhere you look in the global economy we are seeing a hit to domestic demand on top of those supply chain impacts,” said Innes McFee, managing director of macro and investor services at Oxford Economics in London. “It’s incredibly worrying.”

“Over time, it is becoming more difficult for young families to accumulate wealth,” said William R. Emmons, the lead economist at the St. Louis Federal Reserve’s Center for Household Financial Stability. “We thought maybe they’d catch up later, but the current situation doesn’t give me much reason to believe that’s going to happen.”

The "prosperity" under Obese Donald was built to burst. Tax cuts benefitting the wealthy and corporations disproportionately— after 40 years of similar policies— created enormous inequalities with most people living week to week and millions of businesses that can only survive for only two weeks without revenue. The wealthy spent their ransacking mostly in the stock market , creating a bubble. Adding to the bubble was corporations buying back their own stock, unnecessary FED rate cuts, and access to low interest loans. The result? A bubble ready to burst. Folks who had profited handsomely from this scheme used the pandemic as an excuse to sell equities before the bubble burst. With valuations at historic highs, many stocks at 52 week highs, and a global slowdown predicted for late 2020-21, profit taking was inevitable.

I think wealthy economists who had their wealthy parents pay for their Ivy League educations are seriously underestimating the trouble looming on the horizon. And I think it’s because they have no idea how average Americans are actually living. They have all the data in the world, but they don’t know how to interpret it. After all, things are looking so rosy from their family’s 3rd multi-million dollar estate in the picturesque mountains in Aspen, Colorado. Therefore it must be rosy for everyone else...
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