Is Genocide Normal and Healthy? - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15080062
QatzelOk wrote:.
Do you think the children and grand-children of the Nazis should "feel no guilt" as well? If so, why all the Holocaust movies for something that you personally find so normal?


A child is in no way responsible for the sins of the father, and therefore should feel no guilt.
#15080063
QatzelOk wrote:The warring and desparation of the First Nations went through the roof after the European invaders made them all sick, and then gave "certain special" nations weapons, horses, and booze. The new technologies were pure poison.


Please provide evidence, otherwise this is pure BS.

Also, new technologies have vastly increased life expectancy and overall health of first nations.

Many bad things were done to aboriginals, but the colonization of North America by Europeans was based on competition and survival and was completely unavoidable. If the Brits didn't grab the land, the Spanish, Portuguese, French etc. would have. The Brits grabbed the land so that the Spanish didn't grab the entire New World, become a nunstoppable economic and military power, and thus be destroyed by them.
#15080134
Unthinking Majority wrote:Many bad things were done to aboriginals, but the colonization of North America by Europeans was based on competition and survival and was completely unavoidable. If the Brits didn't grab the land, the Spanish, Portuguese, French etc. would have. The Brits grabbed the land so that the Spanish didn't grab the entire New World, become a nunstoppable economic and military power, and thus be destroyed by them.

So the genocide of the First Nations was normal and healthy, in your opinion?
Thanks for sharing it.

Please provide evidence, otherwise this is pure BS.

If you never want to pick up a history book about the genocide of the First Nations yourself, then no one can ever prove to you how or why it happened. Your ignorance of history can keep you safe from knowing bad things that are continuing to this day.

The sanctions that the USA is imposing on one third of the world's people, and all its wars for resource theft that are going on right now, are also genocidal. Or are they really happening, or is it just that I need to prove this to you with a link because you're not seeing it on your Xbox console?
Last edited by QatzelOk on 31 Mar 2020 20:49, edited 1 time in total.
#15080167
QatzelOk wrote:So the genocide of the First Nations was normal and healthy, in your opinion?
Thanks for sharing it.


The colonization was normal I suppose, my point was that it was inevitable and not avoidable. The genocide part of it was not normal and certainly not healthy and was avoidable. Colonization could happen without genocide, north america is massive and the vast, vast majority of it not occupied by aboriginals on contact. They also didn't own all of north america, and weren't in any way a homogenous group that can "claim" the continent.

If you never want to pick up a history book about the genocide of the First Nations yourself, then no one can ever prove to you how or why it happened. Your ignorance of history can keep you safe from knowing bad things that are continuing to this day.


I'm still waiting for evidence that genocide by aboriginals was worse after contact than before. They didn't have an alphabet or a writing system pre-contact so I'm not sure how you can get any evidence for that whatsoever. You certainly won't find it in any history book, since you're trying to reference pre-history.
#15080191
QatzelOk wrote:Do you think the children and grand-children of the Nazis should "feel no guilt" as well?


Nobody should feel guilt over what other people did. If I didn't do it then I'm not guilty, it's as simple as that. It does get complicated though when the next generation benefits from the crimes of the previous generation, that might call for restitution but it's not the same as guilt.

I do think that we should all be ashamed of our human nature though, we are all nasty, stupid, violent, pig ignorant pig fuckers. Whether or not man is a fallen creation or just a half evolved ape, we all need Jesus. Jesus may or may not be real but human nature is real and it's real fucked up, so we all need Jesus regardless of whether or not he actually exists.



All the examples blackjack21, Sivad, or SolarCross want to make of "others doing it" are all aimed at "proving" that genocide is normal and healthy.



That's not the aim, we're just debunking your racist claim that genocide is unique to Europeans.
#15080270
Sivad wrote:That's not the aim, we're just debunking your racist claim that genocide is unique to Europeans.

Unthinking Majority wrote:Colonization could happen without genocide, north america is massive and the vast, vast majority of it not occupied by aboriginals on contact

So Europe was "ideally" crowded with people, and the Americas weren't crowded enough? Is that what happened?
(All those diseases and plagues in Europe were because it was so well governed, right?)

Or did European business interests start intentionally planning and carrying out genocides for economic purposes? Because if they did, then the 18th Century was the first time in human history where GENOCIDE was harnassed as yet another tool of the capitalist bag of tricks for concentrating income.

Imagine a continent of nations built on this concept, of genocide as a money-making scheme. This is very unique.

But if you think it's normal and healthy, then it would be very racist to deny China - the new Superpower - the same right to densify North America through genocide-profit-making.

If you really believe your own texts, you should be waiting for the next virus to wipe you out. Otherwise, the Chinese would be "sleeping at the wheel" and would deserve to fail for "not grabbing an opportunity."

This is the logic of your own words. Enjoy eating them alone in front of your screen.
#15080308
QatzelOk wrote:Or did European business interests start intentionally planning and carrying out genocides for economic purposes? Because if they did, then the 18th Century was the first time in human history where GENOCIDE was harnassed as yet another tool of the capitalist bag of tricks for concentrating income.

Imagine a continent of nations built on this concept, of genocide as a money-making scheme. This is very unique.

But if you think it's normal and healthy, then it would be very racist to deny China - the new Superpower - the same right to densify North America through genocide-profit-making.

If you really believe your own texts, you should be waiting for the next virus to wipe you out. Otherwise, the Chinese would be "sleeping at the wheel" and would deserve to fail for "not grabbing an opportunity."

This is the logic of your own words. Enjoy eating them alone in front of your screen.


I never defended genocide, and in fact condemn it. So I have no idea what you're talking about. This is a strawman, you're arguing with yourself.
#15080687
Unthinking Majority wrote:Many bad things were done to aboriginals, but the colonization of North America by Europeans was based on competition and survival and was completely unavoidable.

FUTURE MEME: Many bad things happened to the Americans. But the death by virus of 99% of them was unavoidable as they had very poor social programs and no environmental protections. And even if the later viruses were artificial, what choice did we have? Every nation was involved in bio-tech weapons at the time.

Sivad wrote:Nobody should feel guilt over what other people did.

FUTURE MEME: You say that my ancestors killed the Americans and that's why I'm sitting here in New Shanghai enjoying a soy milkshake surrounded by my own kind. But nobody should feel guilty about what other people (my ancestors) did.

we're just debunking your racist claim that genocide is unique to Europeans.

FUTURE MEME: Oh please. You're just attacking the Chinese killing off Americans because you're racist. Everyone uses genocide to get wealthier and more powerful. It's human nature to scapegoat other nations when your own elite fails at creating a decent living for its people. And if genocide can help the same incompetent elite stay rich, why not?
#15080979
QatzelOk wrote:FUTURE MEME: Many bad things happened to the Americans. But the death by virus of 99% of them was unavoidable as they had very poor social programs and no environmental protections. And even if the later viruses were artificial, what choice did we have? Every nation was involved in bio-tech weapons at the time.


FUTURE MEME: You say that my ancestors killed the Americans and that's why I'm sitting here in New Shanghai enjoying a soy milkshake surrounded by my own kind. But nobody should feel guilty about what other people (my ancestors) did.


FUTURE MEME: Oh please. You're just attacking the Chinese killing off Americans because you're racist. Everyone uses genocide to get wealthier and more powerful. It's human nature to scapegoat other nations when your own elite fails at creating a decent living for its people. And if genocide can help the same incompetent elite stay rich, why not?



I actually find all three arguments hold to some extent.

1. This is more or less what I use to condemn Maduro or socialism in general. At the end of the day it is still survival for the fittest, the only way I put it differently is that I consider the ability and priority of personal rights protection as part of the survival power of a political or ethnic entity.

2. Essentially this is not future meme. Chinese have been doing that for millennia and a considerable portion of their history involve genocide, assimilation or massacre of different groups of people in different times. Meanwhile, the Chinese also assert a concept that "crimes of one should not be punishable to one's family" -- the (admittedly frequent) application of otherwise was mostly seen as the family being an asset of the condemned, and as a way to prevent descendant avenging their ancestors, but conversely the descendants do not need to 'feel guilty' of their ancestors' crimes.

3. The racism accusation is made because some consider you focusing on European genocide in the Americas too much. If in the future some people target the Chinese only and ignore the other cultures' genocides this accusation will still hold. The rest of the paragraph is, I am afraid, irrational projection of what the accusers "actually believe".
#15081479
SolarCross wrote:You left out the French, the Russians, the Mongolians, the Chinese, the bantu and all the worst genociders. You did that because of your racism against jews and english people.

This is an example of whataboutism . And I will add , so as to have more than a one line post , that our opposition to the Jews and English , in general , and not as a universal rule , is due to the spirit of Mammon which permeates them as a whole . It is not based upon their hereditary lineage , per se . Therefore as such it's not racist . An example of this position would be that of Werner Sombart .
In 1934 he published Deutscher Sozialismus where he claimed a "new spirit" was beginning to "rule mankind". The age of capitalism and proletarian socialism was over, with "German socialism" (National-Socialism) taking over. This German socialism puts the "welfare of the whole above the welfare of the individual".[16] German socialism must effect a "total ordering of life" with a "planned economy in accordance with state regulations".[17] The new legal system will confer on individuals "no rights but only duties" and that "the state should never evaluate individual persons as such, but only the group which represents these persons".[18] German socialism is accompanied by the Volksgeist (national spirit) which is not racial in the biological sense but metaphysical: "the German spirit in a Negro is quite as much within the realm of possibility as the Negro spirit in a German".[19] The antithesis of the German spirit is the Jewish spirit, which is not a matter of being born Jewish or believing in Judaism but is a capitalistic spirit.[20] The English people possess the Jewish spirit and the "chief task" of the German people and National Socialism is to destroy the Jewish spirit
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Sombart#Late_career_and_National_Socialism To assert that we National Bolsheviks , or whatever you might want to term us , advocate a final solution to the Jewish question would be an atrocious absurdity . We would no more seek the utter destruction of the Jewish population than we would the English population . And besides , Anglo-Saxons constitute a Germanic people , so such an ethnocentric interpretation would be nonsensical , on its face . No , our social class struggle is not a racial war , but rather is ultimately spiritual . And not only Sombart , but also other German socialists , from the same time period , have made such a similar critique of the British imperialism . For example , Paul Lensch , among others , such as Johann Plenge . While they believed that war , between proletarian nations and bourgeois nations was an inevitable necessity , they did not advocate wholescale genocide .
#15081480
Deutschmania wrote:This is an example of whataboutism . And I will add , so as to have more than a one line post , that our opposition to the Jews and English , in general , and not as a universal rule , is due to the spirit of Mammon which permeates them as a whole . It is not based upon their hereditary lineage , per se . Therefore as such it's not racist . An example of this position would be that of Werner Sombart . https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Sombart#Late_career_and_National_Socialism To assert that we National Bolsheviks , or whatever you might want to term us , advocate a final solution to the Jewish question would be an atrocious absurdity . We would no more seek the utter destruction of the Jewish population than we would the English population . And besides , Anglo-Saxons constitute a Germanic people , so such an ethnocentric interpretation would be nonsensical , on its face . No , our social class struggle is not a racial war , but rather is ultimately spiritual . And not only Sombart , but also other German socialists , from the same time period , have made such a similar critique of the British imperialism . For example , Paul Lensch , among others , such as Johann Plenge . While they believed that war , between proletarian nations and bourgeois nations was an inevitable necessity , they did not advocate wholescale genocide .

Ok fuck off. You are a nobody. you do not get to tell anyone jew, english, black or anyone what to do. Die quietly in your own time.
#15081491
QatzelOk wrote:
Question: Do you think genocide is healthy and normal, or do you - like me - think that it's one more symptom of the collective sickness of modern society?



He's a troll.
#15081497
QatzelOk wrote:
Should China, as soon as it has the technological advantage, seek to kill off 300+ million Americans and replace them with 500 million Chinese? That would be more happy people to unhappy people by a ration of 5 to 3. Overall, would this be a "good thing?"

Perhaps they Chinese could keep a few million "Americans" alive in plexiglass-enclosed zoos, where Chinese children could feed them McDonalds and Coca Cola while observing them hobbling their way in and out of fake shopping malls and across fake parking lots?

Perhaps some of the "Americans" could sell hand-made Nikes and Adidas in Chinese railroad terminals?


China will colonize Africa long before it colonizes the U.S.

How China Is Colonizing Africa Using Trade, Aid, and Debt-Trap Diplomacy

https://www.panafricanalliance.com/china-africa-colonialism/
#15081748
skinster wrote:lol-ing at self-righteousness coming from Pinochet fanboy. :excited:

I have heard about the situation surrounding the Pinochet regime . In particular , I have heard of the role played by this Charismatic cult . https://www.learning-history.com/colonia-dignidad/ I even saw this movie which was made about it .
I am personally opposed to all totalist cults , and totalitarian states . And , as I am in real life a liberal socialist communitarian , I simply seek the common good of the community as a whole . There should not be any more dominance , and violence , than what is necessary to secure the public order .
#15081807
My 2 cents worth on this topic are ---
1] Genocide is very old. There are written reports of it occurring between many preliterate societies. Mostly written by white people. But, that is because the other people present to see the events could not write. There are many examples of it in histoey as others have pointed out up thread.
2] Native Americans mostly died off because of European diseases that nobody at the time understood and so can't really be blamed for. That is, as son as Europeans had contact with Native Americans there was a chance that the germs would arrive in N. & S America. Once they arrived they would sweep all across the land and 90% of the people would die. That said, the white settlers were obviously guilty of genocide.
3] I believe the 1st hand accounts of the Spanish invaders of Mexico who said that the Aztecs were cannibals. That they truly believed a religion that taught that the Gods demanded that the people sacrifice people to the and then eat the dead bodies. Therefore, I do not accept the all Native American people were above making war on their neighbors. There is not a lot of evidence that they were all warlike. IIRC. OTOH, it makes no sense to deduce that all non-Aztecs were pacifists because there is no evidence to prove they were warlike. It is my opinion that most cultures/peoples have been warlike. So, the burden of proof needs to be on those who claim that all Native american societies in 1490 were pacifists.
4] The past is the past.
5] If many Native American societies in what is now the US were engaged in conflicts between them, then it was like a game of poker with no limit and not limited to 'table stakes'. The white settlers just joined the game because who could stop them? And they were certain to win because they could always win every big hand/pot because they could always keep raising the bet until all others were forced to drop out for lack of "money to bet". Here 'lack of money' means lack of guns and ammo even cannons. t was totally unfair but they had just joined into a game already in progress.
6] The UN has made genocide a crime against humanity. So, it doesn't matter what the answer WAS to the original question is. Almost of the examples in this thread are from the past. They are not evidence for what the answer should be now.
7] And finally, the people in the past did NOT have nuclear weapons. We do have them. Therefore, there are new rules for the game.
. . . I use the game "Risk" as an example to illustrate how a new Tech can change the rules. Imagine playing a game of Risk outdoors in a picnic area on a picnic table with the "lighter fluid rule". This rule gives all the players a bowl of lighter fluid and a lighted candle. If at any time any player can decide that he/she has had enough and can splash the fluid all over the map and supply of pieces and set it all on fire with his candle. With this rule how can any player win with the old rules?
. . . We all need to adapt to the new rules.
. . . Yes, capitalism has gone off the tracks and is now in a Neo-liberal phase which is bent on profit for the *really* rich at *all* or *any* cost. The costs being suffering by most workers in US and EU, etc; and suffering at a much higher level by the people of many poor nations. Maybe even genocide in some cases. The economic theory MMT explains why this suffering is not necessary. Not for US workers and not for workers in other nations either.
#15083604
Giving himself a value of two cents, Steve_American wrote:...the white settlers were obviously guilty of genocide...

Yes, and this erased an incredible amount of knowledge of pre-urban, pre-industrial human life. And this not only was cruel and murderous, but it robbed THE GENOCIDERS of clues to their own freedom.

Today, in the midst of the collapse of industrial civilization, Peter Harrison (a bus driver, by trade) leaves us with this advice for amending what "we" (industrial humanoids) have done:

Peter Harrison wrote:...But there is one single thing we can do that would help to save our ‘reputation’ in the vast balance-sheet of ‘human’ history – and that is to completely seal off those areas of the world that contain the tribespeoples and the ‘uncontacted tribes’ who somehow seem to have always known the evils of civilization, and so have avoided it for millennia.

These peoples are the last humans. They are the revolution that has always been here. They have had no ‘fall from grace’ in the way we have. They do not live in drudgery and empty despair; they have not had their spirit and humanity hollowed out of them.

But we cannot join with them. We must leave them alone

In the essay from which the above quote was taken, the author laments that civilized man has lost his humanity and become an industrial drone capable of only serving his masters. Sort of like... um... domestic dogs.

Of course, our masters will suggest, yet again, some kind of genocide to "decrease the demand" on goods they want to hoard all to themselves. This time, we may be asked to "genocide ourselves." Maybe that's what we're currently in the process of doing (starving ourselves to death).

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