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#15083373
Julian658 wrote:Asians, Hispanics, Indians, Samoans, etc are not people of color. The people of color are the black Americans that were the victims of slavery and Jim Crow. Adding millions of non African people to the definition of people of color does not help the plight of black Americans that are descendants of slaves. I wish the left stopped this wishy washy race identity politics and victimhood. The black Americans that are descendants of slaves need help and this help should not be shifted to other groups that were never enslaved in this country.


Your inability to use definitions correctly is not relevant. Neither are your petty little judgements about progressives.

The fact is that historical racism in the US has led to a situation where people of colour are disproportionately affected by Covid-19.

Most of these people in the inner city live in public housing or receive rent subsidies. Others choose to live on the street because they are mentally ill. The government is sending unemployment checks that are actually larger than the paychecks they were receiving at work. As for overcrowding: The inner people choose to live in the inner city on their own. No one forces them to live there.


None of this is an intelligent disagreement with anything I have said.

Trump could be helping these people. He is not.

That is not how racism is defined. Any person of any racial group can be a victim of violence. If the person is assaulted because of a racial trait it is called a hate crime.


So we agree that your definition of racism was wrong.

When was the last time you beat your wife? That is not a proper question POD. You are slipping again. I know you can do better. This last post needs a bit of work. Nevertheless, you are always a gentleman and do not make arguments with insulting remarks.


I wish you would stop with the insults, but whatever.

So you do not care if Trump is being openly racist.

And yes, being apathetic and consenting of the racism of others does end up supporting racism.

So Trump supporters are supporting racism when they let Trump use this to attack China and Chinese people.
#15083376
Julian658 wrote:Putting Europeans on a pedestal and classifying everyone else as colored is nothing but the glorification of those that come from Europe.


It's not the left that puts Europeans on that pedestal though. Colonialists initiated that dialectic, the left is simply deconstructing its logic.
#15083382
Julian658 wrote:
However, he is not like the left elite white liberals that constantly preach condescending racism of low expectations.



BS.

The Right wing of the Dem party doesn't want to do much that costs money for Blacks (although that just might be changing). But the Progressive wing is different.

One reason is that we have tolerated the exploitation of the poor for a long time.

That is complicated by the fact that while the institutions are gone, the damage of slavery and the KKK remains. Jim Crow never completely went away.

The first step is driving a railroad spike into the heart of voter suppression. That fix is easy, build an independent voting authority like the Brit Boundaries Commission. Political parties cannot be trusted to do that.

The second step, the crucial one, is making sure every kid gets a good education. In the poorest communities, which are often communities of color, the education is dreadful. I admit, there's a catch. It's going to involved creating an environment outside schools that enable learning. That means robust social safety programs, community oriented policing, health care (remember Flint, the lead in the water? You can't learn after your brain was poisoned. That's just one example).
#15083383
maz wrote:I wasn't making any argument, I just wanted to see the numbers. I asked because I saw the mayor of some city, who is black, whining about it in a press conference. He didn't source his claim, much like Pants-of-Dog, which is why I asked for proof of the claim. The Okay Player link showed some data, but seemed to have left out the epicenter of the virus; New York. Or maybe I just missed it.


How can you call yourself an educator on black crime when you can't even look up the most basic statistics, maz? For shame. I guess Maz is just another honkey who got his job as Professor of Black Criminality through affirmative action.
#15083387
late wrote:BS.

The Right wing of the Dem party doesn't want to do much that costs money for Blacks (although that just might be changing). But the Progressive wing is different.


The problem will not be completely fixed with money. Black leaders need a new paradigm. It must be terrible to be born in America and hear from black leaders and media that the reason "you" are poor is because of racism. This causes depression, low self esteem, anger, and nihilism. It also causes racial PTSD where people start to see racism where there is none. Don't get me wrong, the discrimination due to phenotype differences is real, but for the love of God it has been getting better. Only 53 years passed between the Rosa Parks and the election of Obama. Todays most of the major cities of America have a mostly black government and the most cherished personalities of America are black.

One reason is that we have tolerated the exploitation of the poor for a long time.


Working for someone else is a form of slavery. Having to work to put food on the table is a form of slavery. I get that! What is the alternative?

That is complicated by the fact that while the institutions are gone, the damage of slavery and the KKK remains. Jim Crow never completely went away.


I fully agree.. I am an advocate of additional reparations for descendants of slaves. Affirmative action is not enough as it only benefits the kids of well to do families. And why include white women and migrants on the affirmative action bandwagon? That is totally unfair!


The first step is driving a railroad spike into the heart of voter suppression. That fix is easy, build an independent voting authority like the Brit Boundaries Commission. Political parties cannot be trusted to do that.


I cannot understand how a person is prevented form voting. To me this always sounded like propaganda.

The second step, the crucial one, is making sure every kid gets a good education. In the poorest communities, which are often communities of color, the education is dreadful.


This was tried in Kansas City in the 1990s. They spend up to 40K per student and got ZERO results. Look it up! The Kansas City failed school experiment.

I admit, there's a catch. It's going to involved creating an environment outside schools that enable learning. That means robust social safety programs, community oriented policing, health care (remember Flint, the lead in the water? You can't learn after your brain was poisoned. That's just one example).


Exactly!! That is why the Kansas School plan failed. They spent more than anyone in the world but did not fix the homes of the kids. Note, how all minority kids that do well have a mom and a dad. That is the ticket! BTW, I am not a socialist, but I would copy the Cuban education system for the poor areas.
#15083390
Donna wrote:It's not the left that puts Europeans on that pedestal though. Colonialists initiated that dialectic, the left is simply deconstructing its logic.

The left classifies people according to race with as much desire as the whites in the post slavery era or as much as in the old South Africa. Classifying people according to phenotype is inherently evil. It creates division.
#15083392
Godstud wrote::lol: Being logical and reasonable is hard-headed? Guilty as charged!

Please provide evidence that King David cheated on his wives, like the scumbag Trump.

@annatar1914 Was King David unfaithful to his wives? You can't love and respect someone that you are unfaithful to.

Then again, what do I know?
Exodus 20:17 = Husbands and wives are to be sexually faithful to each other in the marriage relationship. (See also Leviticus 18:20)

Also that annoying Commandment:
Thou shalt not commit adultery


We have no evidence that Saint King David, Prophet, King, and Ancestor of Christ, was unfaithful to his wives(s). However he did commit fornication with another man's wife, Bathsheba the wife of his servant the warrior Uriah the Hittite, and put him in a spot where Uriah could be killed in war and then King David could marry the widow Bathsheba. King David paid for this, really for the rest of his life, but a surviving son of his and Bathsheba's was King Solomon...

So you're right, but sinners can and should be mercifully and quietly forgiven if they're open to repentance (and part of forgiveness and repentance lies with firm purpose in not sinning again).

A little backstory as to where i'm coming at with this. When President Clinton was attacked for his immoral dalliances by Conservatives, I loudly objected at it's politicization. A public/political figure should be condemned openly for their open and shameless present immorality (after all that's what St. John the Forerunner was beheaded by Herod Antipas for), but there's no sign that President Trump is unfaithful to the First Lady, since he's been President.

So after all that caveat, in the context of the question you asked me, you're right strictly speaking.
#15083394
Julian658 wrote:People on the left classify people according to race with as much desire as the whites in the post slavery era or as much as in the old South Africa.


Again, it's white supremacists who initiated the dialectic of racial identity, not the left.
#15083397
Julian658 wrote:
1) The problem will not be completely fixed with money.



2) Working for someone else is a form of slavery.



3) I fully agree.. I am an advocate of additional reparations for descendants of slaves. Affirmative action is not enough as it only benefits the kids of well to do families.




4) I cannot understand how a person is prevented form voting. To me this always sounded like propaganda.



5) This was tried in Kansas City in the 1990s. They spend up to 40K per student and got ZERO results. Look it up! The Kansas City failed school experiment.





1) Let me know when you can build a new school and pay for it with wishful thinking.

2) Slavery is slavery. Working is working.

3) I didn't say anything about reparations.Not what I was advocating, at all. But I do think the time when affirmative action made sense is over.

4) That's the part of Jim Crow that never stopped. The re-authorisation of the VRA has several HUNDRED pages of documentation. Time to do your homework.

5) What I am talking about has never been done. It's also complicated. Current pedagogy is profoundly flawed. Prob the first step is designing an effective school system, the reality here is that it would need to be a Federal school. The world is a buffet of effective methods, we just need to dig in.
#15083422
Donna wrote:Again, it's white supremacists who initiated the dialectic of racial identity, not the left.


I get it, but it is wrong to classify people according to phenotype or genotype. If you go to Cuba everybody is Cuban. People are not classified according to skin color. The same is done in France in the name of Liberté, égalité, fraternité. Black French people see themselves as French, not black and have much better self esteem and sense of national identity.

Why must blacks adopt such a racist system of human classification? I think it is done in search of allies or numbers to demonize those of European descent. It is not working and it only fuels race identity on the extreme right. If you constantly demonize a person for being white, male, and straight they may become sympathetic to white race identity.
#15083423
late wrote:1) Let me know when you can build a new school and pay for it with wishful thinking.


America should copy the Cuban model when it comes to teaching in economically depressed areas. Building a two trillion dollar school system when the kids come from a suboptimal home will not work. It certainly failed miserably in Kansas City. I encourage to look it up.

2) Slavery is slavery. Working is working.


Working for another person even if you get a salary is a form of service. However, that is the best we have.

3) I didn't say anything about reparations.Not what I was advocating, at all. But I do think the time when affirmative action made sense is over.


Affirmative action is fighting racism with racism, I agree. Not allowing qualified Asians to be admitted to an Ivy League University because they are too good is blatant racism. Actually is not racism---------It is discrimination.

4) That's the part of Jim Crow that never stopped. The re-authorisation of the VRA has several HUNDRED pages of documentation. Time to do your homework.


I tend to disagree. I think voter ID should be the law. I don't feel black people are incapable of having ID.

5) What I am talking about has never been done. It's also complicated. Current pedagogy is profoundly flawed. Prob the first step is designing an effective school system, the reality here is that it would need to be a Federal school. The world is a buffet of effective methods, we just need to dig in.


All we need is a military type teaching method where the poor kids spend the entire week in school with strict military discipline. You do that for 12 years and you end up with great men and women.
#15083426
Julian658 wrote:I get it, but it is wrong to classify people according to phenotype or genotype. If you go to Cuba everybody is Cuban. People are not classified according to skin color. The same is done in France in the name of Liberté, égalité, fraternité. Black French people see themselves as French, not black and have much better self esteem and sense of national identity.

Why must blacks adopt such a racist system of human classification? I think it is done in search of allies or numbers to demonize those of European descent. It is not working and it only fuels race identity on the extreme right. If you constantly demonize a person for being white, male, and straight they may become sympathetic to white race identity.


I think you're stereotyping black people here because you seem to be implying that they disassociate their identity from America. What is this but a petty prejudice against blacks that they're not patriotic enough?

This is a good example of the inherently racist underpinnings of "color blindness" in the US. And it's why race matters in progressive discourse because America is still a racist nation with political dynamics still rooted in its white supremacist foundation. That doesn't go away overnight.
#15083427
Pants-of-dog wrote:Your inability to use definitions correctly is not relevant. Neither are your petty little judgements about progressives.

The fact is that historical racism in the US has led to a situation where people of colour are disproportionately affected by Covid-19.


Many definitions on the left are incorrect and they deny science over and over again. They have come up with the concept that a man with a penis and XY chromosomes can be a real woman. They also fail to understand that correlation is not causation. Just because more blacks died from Corona does not mean it is due to racism. That is incredibly naive. The NBA is 90% black even though blacken are only 6% of the nation. Does that mean the NBA discriminate white players?
#15083430
Donna wrote:I think you're stereotyping black people here because you seem to be implying that they disassociate their identity from America. What is this but a petty prejudice against blacks that they're not patriotic enough?

This is a good example of the inherently racist underpinnings of "color blindness" in the US. And it's why race matters in progressive discourse because America is still a racist nation with political dynamics still rooted in its white supremacist foundation. That doesn't go away overnight.


It is well known that the extreme left hates these words.

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

As for patriotism: In some circles on the left the American flag is only good for burning.
#15083433
Julian658 wrote:
1) America should copy the Cuban model when it comes to teaching in economically depressed areas.

2) Building a two trillion dollar school system when the kids come from a suboptimal home will not work. It certainly failed miserably in Kansas City. I encourage to look it up.


3) Affirmative action is fighting racism with racism, I agree.



4) I tend to disagree. I think voter ID should be the law. I don't feel black people are incapable of having ID.



5) All we need is a military type teaching method where the poor kids spend the entire week in school with strict military discipline. You do that for 12 years and you end up with great men and women.



1) We can do much, much, better.

2) Mom was a teacher, I started reading hew books on education reform in the early 70s. You are doing little more than throwing cliches around.

3) Speaking of cliches...

4) I was talking about facts and history. And your voter ID is racist as hell.

5) That's straight out of the 1800s. The world has changed, even if you have not.

Here's the basics, Americans hate education reform. So we won't get it. The rich want you under their boot. The upper middle class has decent education for their kids. They see this as a zero sum game, and that means they hate reform with a passion.

There's a lot more, of course, and 99% of what is said about it is bullshit. But the end result is easy, fading empires don't take good care of their people.
#15083434
Julian658 wrote:I get it, but it is wrong to classify people according to phenotype or genotype. If you go to Cuba everybody is Cuban. People are not classified according to skin color. The same is done in France in the name of Liberté, égalité, fraternité. Black French people see themselves as French, not black and have much better self esteem and sense of national identity.


This does not hold in eastern Europe where two distinct concepts exist - citizenship and ethnicity. Anybody can gain citizenship after meeting criteria according to law, but ethnicity is inherited and implies race. Therefore e.g a black person gaining Polish citizenship (substitute for any eastern European citizenship) saying proudly "I'm Polish now" would make people laugh. There is nothing racist about it, since such a person wouldn't be of Polish ethnicity. Stating one's identity without the word "citizenship" is associated with ethnicity rather than citizenship. People from Vietnam who have lived there for decades, have citizenship and speak the local language are still referred to as Vietnamese, including their offspring. Another example is Gypsies, they are always referred to by their ethnicity rather than nationality. The concept of nation is more complicated and has more depth in Europe than in the US, there is also naturally much more resistance to illegal immigration (Hungarian border wall..., reports of Croatian border patrols throwing illegals over the border, sometimes even beating them). However anybody of European descent would get accepted quickly as there are small differences. By western standards it may seem racist, but these countries are 99% white and are not used to interaction with other races.
Last edited by fokker on 10 Apr 2020 23:35, edited 1 time in total.
#15083436
Julian658 wrote:It is well known that the extreme left hates these words.

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

As for patriotism: In some circles on the left the American flag is only good for burning.


At this point it sounds like you're pouting. I challenge you to list three positive things about the left. Or at minimum, at least one.
#15083437
Julian658 wrote:Many definitions on the left are incorrect and they deny science over and over again. They have come up with the concept that a man with a penis and XY chromosomes can be a real woman. They also fail to understand that correlation is not causation.


More irrelevant insults.

Just because more blacks died from Corona does not mean it is due to racism. That is incredibly naive.


I already explained how racism and Covid-19 are related. Feel free to explain how I am wrong.

The NBA is 90% black even though blacken are only 6% of the nation. Does that mean the NBA discriminate white players?


Irrelevant.

Why do you support Trump’s racism and his ineffective reaction to Covid-19?
#15083438
Pants-of-dog wrote:Which racial groups are more likely to live in crowded conditions due to poverty?


Italians maybe?


That the people who are keeping everyone alive, and risking their safety to do so, are disproportionately people of colour and poor people, and Trump is doing nothing for them.


And the evidence for your claim would be...?


I guess you do not care about the fact that Trump is supporting and enabling racism against Asians.

Do you think it is racist to support or tolerate open displays of racism?

—————————


So you just ignored the link I provided regarding Canadians (and others) suffering discrimination due to nationality in China. I can provide links for similar in India.


Do you think it is racist to support or tolerate open displays of racism?




All of this is irrelevant. Look up “whataboutism”.





It just shows how to do it properly. Australia and New Zealand have proactively implemented policies to protect at risk ethnic groups. Canada has not.

I doubt you could bring yourself acknowledge any successful efforts to help minorities unless it suited your political agenda because it is that agenda alone that you are concerned with. Minority interests are just a political vehicle for you.


And Trump is doing his best to fan the flames of racism. This has worked before to distract his base from his awful performance. It seems to be working again.



See response above regarding xenophobia toward foreigners in China. The same could be said of the Communist government in that country. You lack consistency if you do not also condemn them. A lack of consistency suggests your agenda is other that what you pretend it to be.


@maz

Ok, fair enough. Stats on NYC are plentiful of the net. I just want you to see that the stats are not the problem. It is what people are trying to do with them that is the problem.


Consider, males are more often in critical care and die from most diseases, including corona virus. So why aren’t the same people who use the stats to advocate for minority rights also advocating for men’s health?


The answer is that there isn’t much political mileage in men’s health. It follows that their concern for minority health is superficial. I posted what Oz and NZ have done to show what a genuine concern for community health looks like. They dismiss it because it shows them up for what they are.


“Good causes attract con artists like shit attracts flies.”


This can also be seen in other causes, such as environmentalism. Certainly this is a pressing and important issue. But it has been hyjacked by the likes of Greta Thunberg and her Extinction Rebellion commie friends.


What they are don’t is using a good cause to say resources should be directed in this direction and that, since they present themselves as the authority, they should be the ones who get to control the distribution of those resources.


Politics is about who gets what, when and how. The people who get to makes those choices have the power. Advocating of environmentalism or minority issues, or whatever other good cause they latch onto, is all using this causes as a vehicle to gain power for themselves. PoD is a text book example.


But go ahead and look up the stats. Black communities are suffering a lot more than other communities. The advocates won’t help them. After all, those advocates are typically DNC and have left black communities living in the slums for decades.


Suck it up @Godstud :)
#15083441
Donna wrote:At this point it sounds like you're pouting. I challenge you to list three positive things about the left. Or at minimum, at least one.


Easy!

Universal Health Care
Tolerance of the LGBTQIA, etc, etc people
Atheism or agnosticism
Gay marriage
Less discrimination
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