[Tainari88]

Hello PoFo, I found discussions about identity very interesting.

I am going to put in five videos. One about Black women discussing their feelings surrounding race.

White people surrounding their feelings about race.

And Latino people's feelings surrounding racial issues.

Native American people's feelings about racial issues.

And finally Chinese Corona virus expressions about race.

What is your opinion of these people discussing this? Whiners, liars, truth tellers, honest people, tough, soft, etc?

What do you think?

troll like opinions will be ignored.

i find all this hatred and lack of humanity that people go through about being human a big and hard hurdle to deal with every day. I think people on the whole need to mature mentally and emotionally enough to understand what their discriminatory thoughts wind up doing.

[Rich]

The racism of some of these so called Native Americans is disgusting. Just imagine if I a British person said to a person from India or Pakistan, even if you and your descendants live here for 400 years, you still won't be real British, you still won't have the same moral right to live here as the White indigenous people.

Anti White racism is so pervasive, so endemic, its the water in which we swim that we can no longer even see it. Except for a few woke individuals like myself. Take Cape Town for example. White people have lived in Cape Town a lot longer than Bantu people. Yet people talk as if the Bantu are the indigenous people and the White people are colonial invaders.

[MistyTiger]

Racism exists because people are intolerant of differences. They have to laugh about eye shape, skin color, customs and so on. It is just ugly and stupid.

I grew up feeling like a social outcast. I eventually developed my own rebellious persona so I care less about inclusion. I still wonder about being included but I am more accepting of myself. I will not change to be more like the cool crowd or the elite. If people do not like me, fine. I got to be true to myself and my upbringing. My race does not define me. My values, education, actions, words and experience define me.

[Code Rood]

Let me guess: whites should feel guilty and non-whites should feel like victims? Is my gut feeling right? Or am I actually going to learn something new if I watch these videos?

[Rich]

I grew up feeling like a social outcast. I eventually developed my own rebellious persona so I care less about inclusion. I still wonder about being included but I am more accepting of myself. I will not change to be more like the cool crowd or the elite. If people do not like me, fine. I got to be true to myself and my upbringing. My race does not define me. My values, education, actions, words and experience define me.

I can only speak for myself, but I'm certainly aware that many people suffer because of prejudice, in fact significant numbers suffer terribly. Racism and prejudice certainly unnecessarily restricts and obstructs people's life chances.

The problem is the left's response to this bigotry and generally their response to perceived injustice. Have you noticed how the left is always talking about fighting. The left even talk about fighting to defend their local hospital ward. There is no fighting involved. This is not the Warsaw Ghetto, its not even Catalonia in the Spanish Civil war. Its pathetic. What we're talking about is a campaign for society to consume some resources in one place rather than another place. Its the same with prejudice. You can't fight prejudice. Prejudice and bigotry are every where, they don't have an army that can be vanquished in open battle.

Of course its not just the left that are given over to pathetic egoic fantasies of fighting against injustice. The Right have them as well, and the establishment centre are also prone to conjure up absurd narratives of heroism and glory.

[late]

Have you noticed how the left is always talking about fighting.

It's a metaphor.

Manana will be the 25th anniversary of the OK City Bombing.

That was not a metaphor. Please take note of the difference.

[Tainari88]

The racism of some of these so called Native Americans is disgusting. Just imagine if I a British person said to a person from India or Pakistan, even if you and your descendants live here for 400 years, you still won't be real British, you still won't have the same moral right to live here as the White indigenous people.

Anti White racism is so pervasive, so endemic, its the water in which we swim that we can no longer even see it. Except for a few woke individuals like myself. Take Cape Town for example. White people have lived in Cape Town a lot longer than Bantu people. Yet people talk as if the Bantu are the indigenous people and the White people are colonial invaders.

Rich, the problem is why there was colonialism in the first place? why did the American Revolutionary war happen? The wars fought against Native peoples in many places like in Australia in which the Tasmanian natives were killed in such great numbers that there are no Tasmians practically left in Tasmania.

In WWII the problem with the concentration camps were the amount of people there who posed a threat to a social and political and military order from an invading force.

Why are invasions and forced take overs of others territories necessary? What drives it? What is the purpose behind it? Self defense? Or imperial expansion?

Those are the questions one must ask. But the ones who are from the Imperial side? Never examine that part of the equation at all? WHY? I ask you why?

The land of North America was inhabited by Native peoples. Today less than 2% of their descendants continue to live in the North American territory. 98% are gone. You call them disgusting. Why?

When only 2% of your background people remain in the British isles and the rest of the land is taken over by Pakistanis and Hindus and so on? Who claim to find the complaints of the British native peoples 'disgusting' you might get an inkling of how unfair you think Rich. Till then? Continue to live in denial.

The Pakistanis and so on are in the UK because the UK invaded a lot of nations and established trade, and political influence ties to them. In the process of negotiating all that back and forth that capitalist expansion encourages to do to continue to grow? It has to cede acceptance of the pressures of having some loss of the other side's control over either a resource or a territory or a service or a concept and or intellectual property.

That is part of capitalism Rich.

That is why the Pakistanis, Hindus etc are there.

You lack depth in analysis. And continue with being a snob.

Lol.

I like you though, because you are intelligent.

[Tainari88]

Racism exists because people are intolerant of differences. They have to laugh about eye shape, skin color, customs and so on. It is just ugly and stupid.

I grew up feeling like a social outcast. I eventually developed my own rebellious persona so I care less about inclusion. I still wonder about being included but I am more accepting of myself. I will not change to be more like the cool crowd or the elite. If people do not like me, fine. I got to be true to myself and my upbringing. My race does not define me. My values, education, actions, words and experience define me.

Misty, that feeling of outcast you get is real. Because believe it or not? Many of the people out there see your face and it is all that they see. She is not from European stock. She is not a real American. That is the shit you got to deal with.

A lot of work to do out there Misty. Your attitude now is a good one. Plus, life is about struggle. Struggle on and do well.

Ultimately people who run around excluding others based on race or culture are foolish people and don't really do well in life in my opinion. They are limited in some way. If they are very intelligent in the end they become closed and it makes them unsatisfied with their lives.

Having a great life is the best revenge. You have a great life Misty.

[Political Interest]

My experience

I am a European man and through my life there have been incidents where accusations of perceived racism caused problems. The first time it nearly led to me getting my head kicked in. There was no guilt on my part, it did not pertain at all to race but it was perceived that way. It was a Chinese and Malay gang.

The second time was when a Chinese land lady and Chinese real estate agent were speaking in Cantonese during intense negotiations. When they were asked to speak in English so that we could all understand each other they claimed the request was racist.

Another incident occurred when I walked into a movie theatre two Chinese men sat in the back said, "Hey look, ang moh!"

When I was visiting Korea a local friend told me that the people were making offensive stereotypes about my race. When I asked him what they were he refused to tell me. I pressed him on it and he still refused. Clearly they must have been very offensive.

An Indian was once talking about how white men go to Asia for sex tourism and said, "You're part of it." By this I do not know whether he meant me personally or my nationality or what he meant. And this person also called my country's alliance with the USA and Australia an axis of evil.

Not long after moving to England a Pakistani man once told me that he thought white women were more sexually adventurous, to paraphrase it politely.

I once went into a live talk voice chat room of black nationalists. I was very interested in their ideas and the history. I had the pleasant experience of hearing a woman say how she thought all white men were homosexuals and pederasts.

And then there was the wonderful experience where two Russian who knew I was from an English speaking country said, "American boy. Hey, can I f***k your mother?"

In the past I never wanted to talk about these experiences because I was scared they could be used by the far right. But I think that in an intellectual setting like this it is important to share them. They did happen and I think there are some people who I trust to share them with.

So, I have had some experience. This has all led me to hate racial prejudice with all my heart. Good people will never be racist but there will always be some lower elements who like to indulge in it. But it has led me to think that the Western multicultural experiment was probably not the best or feasible idea. I don't really fit in anywhere into these discussions. I don't fit into the middle class sheltered liberal types who talked in the video Tainari posted but I also dont belong with the far right or racists. Most people are good people. There is no racism as sociological problem because it is not a question of whites or blacks. It's only good and bad people.

[Tainari88]

My experience

I am a European man and through my life there have been incidents where accusations of perceived racism caused problems. The first time it nearly led to me getting my head kicked in. There was no guilt on my part, it did not pertain at all to race but it was perceived that way. It was a Chinese and Malay gang.

The second time was when a Chinese land lady and Chinese real estate agent were speaking in Cantonese during intense negotiations. When they were asked to speak in English so that we could all understand each other they claimed the request was racist.

Another incident occurred when I walked into a movie theatre two Chinese men sat in the back said, "Hey look, ang moh!"

When I was visiting Korea a local friend told me that the people were making offensive stereotypes about my race. When I asked him what they were he refused to tell me. I pressed him on it and he still refused. Clearly they must have been very offensive.

An Indian was once talking about how white men go to Asia for sex tourism and said, "You're part of it." By this I do not know whether he meant me personally or my nationality or what he meant. And this person also called my country's alliance with the USA and Australia an axis of evil.

Not long after moving to England a Pakistani man once told me that he thought white women were more sexually adventurous, to paraphrase it politely.

I once went into a live talk voice chat room of black nationalists. I was very interested in their ideas and the history. I had the pleasant experience of hearing a woman say how she thought all white men were homosexuals and pederasts.

And then there was the wonderful experience where two Russian who knew I was from an English speaking country said, "American boy. Hey, can I f***k your mother?"

In the past I never wanted to talk about these experiences because I was scared they could be used by the far right. But I think that in an intellectual setting like this it is important to share them. They did happen and I think there are some people who I trust to share them with.

So, I have had some experience. This has all led me to hate racial prejudice with all my heart. Good people will never be racist but there will always be some lower elements who like to indulge in it. But it has led me to think that the Western multicultural experiment was probably not the best or feasible idea. I don't really fit in anywhere into these discussions. I don't fit into the middle class sheltered liberal types who talked in the video Tainari posted but I also dont belong with the far right or racists. Most people are good people. There is no racism as sociological problem because it is not a question of whites or blacks. It's only good and bad people.

I am Puerto Rican with so many racist incidents in my life and some of them were life threatening that I find it a part of the human condition.

Goodall talks about Xenophobia in primates. It is an integral part of our DNA. How we deal with it though? Is all about what parts of our brains and our civilized thought process do we use to be able to contain the harm it does to others.

That is what I think.

People have no control over which racial or cultural group they are born into Political Interest. But how they react and interact with people outside their own culture? Yes, they do have control over that.

I think being able to put yourself in another person's shoes and in another person's experiences? Having human empathy is one of the most critical things one can have to make thoughtful decisions on differences within all groups of people.

Civil wars are fought among people who speak mostly the same language, share the same land and often share the same history. But it doesn't mean they won't have a civil war. So the problem is about power and getting power and sharing power. It is extremely difficult to create enough unity to prevent those civil wars. It is even more difficult to create unity among differing groups. The key is flexibility of thinking, empathy and shared goals that benefit both sides.

A tall order. But? If we get past the petty primate xenophobia? We might just be able to leave the reptilian thinking behind and head towards a logical and rational and important advancement.

Thanks for talking about your experiences @Political Interest . BTW, having a good heart I am realizing is one very important factor in being a good human.

[MistyTiger]

I can only speak for myself, but I'm certainly aware that many people suffer because of prejudice, in fact significant numbers suffer terribly. Racism and prejudice certainly unnecessarily restricts and obstructs people's life chances.

The problem is the left's response to this bigotry and generally their response to perceived injustice. Have you noticed how the left is always talking about fighting. The left even talk about fighting to defend their local hospital ward. There is no fighting involved. This is not the Warsaw Ghetto, its not even Catalonia in the Spanish Civil war. Its pathetic. What we're talking about is a campaign for society to consume some resources in one place rather than another place. Its the same with prejudice. You can't fight prejudice. Prejudice and bigotry are every where, they don't have an army that can be vanquished in open battle.

Of course its not just the left that are given over to pathetic egoic fantasies of fighting against injustice. The Right have them as well, and the establishment centre are also prone to conjure up absurd narratives of heroism and glory.

Good point about both sides talking about fighting. The talk only reminds people that there is a huge problem. The problem is never fixed. How can we fix racism? I think the culture needs to educate people from kindergarten until high school that everyone should feel accepted if they are good people. Difference in appearance, beliefs, customs should be tolerated and portrayed as something unique and interesting. We can condition people to be more openminded. Love is what it's all about, reminds me of Louis Armstrong and his intro to What a Wonderful World.

[MistyTiger]

Misty, that feeling of outcast you get is real. Because believe it or not? Many of the people out there see your face and it is all that they see. She is not from European stock. She is not a real American. That is the shit you got to deal with.

A lot of work to do out there Misty. Your attitude now is a good one. Plus, life is about struggle. Struggle on and do well.

Ultimately people who run around excluding others based on race or culture are foolish people and don't really do well in life in my opinion. They are limited in some way. If they are very intelligent in the end they become closed and it makes them unsatisfied with their lives.

Having a great life is the best revenge. You have a great life Misty.

The funny thing is if they looked harder, they might detect a few European features in my face. I think I am only part Asian. My mom was adopted and looks Spanish so we are not sure how Asian she is.

I agree, living well is the best revenge. Some people are jealous of me but I want to tell them not to be. Why be jealous of what you do not understand? We all have our pain and our burdens. It is not wise to envy others, no one has it easy. I got my scars but I refuse to let them blind me to the beauty of life.

[Political Interest]

Tainari, please forgive me for having to read what I put above. It is not pleasant but it was suitable in a disussion such as this.

I am Puerto Rican with so many racist incidents in my life and some of them were life threatening that I find it a part of the human condition.

I am sorry to hear this. I hope you are not suffering too much from the memory of these experiences. I know very well that the memory causes suffering long after the incidence.

But at the end of the day at least you know that you are a superior person to them. You have not racially denigrated or attempted to hurt anyone on the basis of their race. Therefore you are of greater value as a human person.

I am Puerto Rican with so many racist incidents in my life and some of them were life threatening that I find it a part of the human condition. Goodall talks about Xenophobia in primates. It is an integral part of our DNA. How we deal with it though? Is all about what parts of our brains and our civilized thought process do we use to be able to contain the harm it does to others.

That is what I think.

The tribalistic or even xenophobic tendencies are present among all peoples. The higher person will not indulge them, and perhaps the even more cultivated person will not feel them at all.

I've always thought that being able to empathise with the suffering of another people and their need for dignity and honour is a sign of a cultivated human person. Unfortunately most people around the world do not have this ability or recognise the need to respect other peoples. I'm different and I like to give myself points up for being one of the few people to recognise every people's right to a homeland. To feel that one's nation is safe and that they belong to a people is part of one's development into adulthood and self-respect. This is simply natural.

People have no control over which racial or cultural group they are born into Political Interest. But how they react and interact with people outside their own culture? Yes, they do have control over that.

We do not choose but our nations and backgrounds are chosen for us. All that is left is what we do with what we have inherited.

I think being able to put yourself in another person's shoes and in another person's experiences? Having human empathy is one of the most critical things one can have to make thoughtful decisions on differences within all groups of people.

Empathy is a trait that is increasingly disparaged these days.

Civil wars are fought among people who speak mostly the same language, share the same land and often share the same history. But it doesn't mean they won't have a civil war. So the problem is about power and getting power and sharing power. It is extremely difficult to create enough unity to prevent those civil wars. It is even more difficult to create unity among differing groups. The key is flexibility of thinking, empathy and shared goals that benefit both sides.

I think mass immigration and the creation of plural societies is not conducive to social harmony.

A tall order. But? If we get past the petty primate xenophobia? We might just be able to leave the reptilian thinking behind and head towards a logical and rational and important advancement.

We can achieve this internationally, perhaps even in a national context but not with democracy.

Thanks for talking about your experiences @Political Interest . BTW, having a good heart I am realizing is one very important factor in being a good human.

Thank you for listening.

I agree about having a good heart. Afterall, both Christianity and Islam teach us that we must be good both in thought and deed.

[Donna]

Let me guess: whites should feel guilty and non-whites should feel like victims? Is my gut feeling right? Or am I actually going to learn something new if I watch these videos?

You might learn how people who are different from you experience society.

[ckaihatsu]

My experience

I am a European man and through my life there have been incidents where accusations of perceived racism caused problems. The first time it nearly led to me getting my head kicked in. There was no guilt on my part, it did not pertain at all to race but it was perceived that way. It was a Chinese and Malay gang.

The second time was when a Chinese land lady and Chinese real estate agent were speaking in Cantonese during intense negotiations. When they were asked to speak in English so that we could all understand each other they claimed the request was racist.

Another incident occurred when I walked into a movie theatre two Chinese men sat in the back said, "Hey look, ang moh!"

When I was visiting Korea a local friend told me that the people were making offensive stereotypes about my race. When I asked him what they were he refused to tell me. I pressed him on it and he still refused. Clearly they must have been very offensive.

An Indian was once talking about how white men go to Asia for sex tourism and said, "You're part of it." By this I do not know whether he meant me personally or my nationality or what he meant. And this person also called my country's alliance with the USA and Australia an axis of evil.

Not long after moving to England a Pakistani man once told me that he thought white women were more sexually adventurous, to paraphrase it politely.

I once went into a live talk voice chat room of black nationalists. I was very interested in their ideas and the history. I had the pleasant experience of hearing a woman say how she thought all white men were homosexuals and pederasts.

And then there was the wonderful experience where two Russian who knew I was from an English speaking country said, "American boy. Hey, can I f***k your mother?"

In the past I never wanted to talk about these experiences because I was scared they could be used by the far right. But I think that in an intellectual setting like this it is important to share them. They did happen and I think there are some people who I trust to share them with.

So, I have had some experience. This has all led me to hate racial prejudice with all my heart. Good people will never be racist but there will always be some lower elements who like to indulge in it. But it has led me to think that the Western multicultural experiment was probably not the best or feasible idea. I don't really fit in anywhere into these discussions. I don't fit into the middle class sheltered liberal types who talked in the video Tainari posted but I also dont belong with the far right or racists. Most people are good people. There is no racism as sociological problem because it is not a question of whites or blacks. It's only good and bad people.

PI, if I may, I'd like to point out that there's been an *international history* of *oppression* of these ethnic backgrounds, in the persons of the vignettes of experience that you've described.

It's unfortunate if you've had some less-than-civil experiences regarding your own (arbitrary) cultural background, but you obviously should not be taking such incidents *personally* because it sounds like all of them, except for the Russians, were *strangers* to you and weren't commenting on you as an individual.

If this is the *worst* that you experience, due to rising consciousness of the imperialism and systematic oppression of these people's families and cultures, then that's certainly a small price to pay for what *your* ethnic predecessors have done to people of color from the 1500s onward.

I'm not saying that it's necessarily *appropriate*, since you are your own person, but it's certainly *understandable* when racism, sexism, and xenophobia *still* exist, and you happen to be of a culturally *hegemonic* demographic.

I'll also go so far as to say that your experience is even *regrettable*, politically speaking, because I don't think that there's anything to be 'gained' by members of historically-oppressed cultures 'venting' their cultural frustrations onto someone of your demographic, but the reality is that there isn't much else *out there* for them, either. If you were to trade places with some people from oppressed backgrounds, you might see how much *harder* everyday life is, relative to *your* relatively-privileged experience of it in this world.

What can people from historically-oppressed backgrounds *do* about their consciousness of their oppressed cultures and increased continued closeness to poverty and powerlessness, into the present-day? Can they *sue*? Can they lobby representatives in the corridors of power to alter government policy? Can they get *reparations*? (Can people *currently* furloughed by the coronavirus get reparations? Many of the checks just haven't arrived yet, if ever.)

If *you* want to go so far as to say that society is *fracturing* and that we may even be heading towards a *civil war*, I would *agree*, and it also might be entirely *appropriate*, at this stage of things. Whites have enjoyed unimaginable levels of social *privilege*, while experientially it just feels like being a fish swimming through water, to those who have benefitted from the status quo. The 'water', to extend the metaphor, has been *polluted*, with garbage at the bottom, and has caused life-experiences of *collisions* with garbage along the way, for those who *haven't* been socially privileged.

This society of inequality did *not* end after the '60s and '70s were over -- it *continues* to this day, and the *causes* of this festering caste system of social inequalities have *not* been significantly addressed or changed -- but they *can't* be, either, because it's *this* system, capitalism, that is the *cause* of all social ills, due to its inherent 'income inequality' / class division.

The way to *prove* that you're politically and really *not* around the far-right is to demonstrate *social consciousness* / global consciousness, particularly of the histories that would bring otherwise sane and intelligent people (of color) to *ridicule* you based on your outward appearance alone. I doubt that *anyone* would *want* to behave this way, but, again, there are real *frustrations*, from without, that box-people-in, in *their* experiences, resulting in the experiences that you've described.

Will you be able to *transcend* your own individuality, and personal experiences, PI?

[Political Interest]

PI, if I may, I'd like to point out that there's been an *international history* of *oppression* of these ethnic backgrounds, in the persons of the vignettes of experience that you've described.

Yes, of course. Who has denied this?

It's unfortunate if you've had some less-than-civil experiences regarding your own (arbitrary) cultural background, but you obviously should not be taking such incidents *personally* because it sounds like all of them, except for the Russians, were *strangers* to you and weren't commenting on you as an individual.

Not as an individual, but collectives are made of individuals. Making generalisations about ethnicities or races even if not directed at individuals is still offensive.

If this is the *worst* that you experience, due to rising consciousness of the imperialism and systematic oppression of these people's families and cultures, then that's certainly a small price to pay for what *your* ethnic predecessors have done to people of color from the 1500s onward.

A price to pay. So you believe there is a price to pay do you?

And I am not sure what my ethnic predecessors had to do with empire building or oppression of these peoples.

I'm not saying that it's necessarily *appropriate*, since you are your own person, but it's certainly *understandable* when racism, sexism, and xenophobia *still* exist, and you happen to be of a culturally *hegemonic* demographic.

It's understandable but not acceptable.

I'll also go so far as to say that your experience is even *regrettable*, politically speaking, because I don't think that there's anything to be 'gained' by members of historically-oppressed cultures 'venting' their cultural frustrations onto someone of your demographic, but the reality is that there isn't much else *out there* for them, either. If you were to trade places with some people from oppressed backgrounds, you might see how much *harder* everyday life is, relative to *your* relatively-privileged experience of it in this world.

How do we quantify a relatively privileged experience of every day life?

What can people from historically-oppressed backgrounds *do* about their consciousness of their oppressed cultures and increased continued closeness to poverty and powerlessness, into the present-day? Can they *sue*? Can they lobby representatives in the corridors of power to alter government policy? Can they get *reparations*? (Can people *currently* furloughed by the coronavirus get reparations? Many of the checks just haven't arrived yet, if ever.)

Yes, what you say is true but generally people with any level of intelligence won't generalise entire nationalities.

If *you* want to go so far as to say that society is *fracturing* and that we may even be heading towards a *civil war*, I would *agree*, and it also might be entirely *appropriate*, at this stage of things. Whites have enjoyed unimaginable levels of social *privilege*, while experientially it just feels like being a fish swimming through water, to those who have benefitted from the status quo. The 'water', to extend the metaphor, has been *polluted*, with garbage at the bottom, and has caused life-experiences of *collisions* with garbage along the way, for those who *haven't* been socially privileged.

If there is going to be an upheaval in the future, it will be caused by the far left and far right and their new versions that have developed over the last five years.

You claim that whites have enjoyed massive social privilege but if you look into the family histories of many white families it was not some sort of great big party. I am not sure where you are from, but a lot of American whites seem to think all whites have lived in middle class suburbs with cars, swimming pools and all the luxuries. For most of the whites in Europe it was hard work and low wages living in cramped living conditions and general privation. Is working as a general labourer for low wages or coughing your lungs out in factory some type of luxurious existence?

And of course WWI and WWII were just such a song and joy.

This society of inequality did *not* end after the '60s and '70s were over -- it *continues* to this day, and the *causes* of this festering caste system of social inequalities have *not* been significantly addressed or changed -- but they *can't* be, either, because it's *this* system, capitalism, that is the *cause* of all social ills, due to its inherent 'income inequality' / class division.

An American black nationalist once told me that he thought socialism would not help his people because whites would still hold institutional power.

The way to *prove* that you're politically and really *not* around the far-right is to demonstrate *social consciousness* / global consciousness, particularly of the histories that would bring otherwise sane and intelligent people (of color) to *ridicule* you based on your outward appearance alone. I doubt that *anyone* would *want* to behave this way, but, again, there are real *frustrations*, from without, that box-people-in, in *their* experiences, resulting in the experiences that you've described.

I already have.

Will you be able to *transcend* your own individuality, and personal experiences, PI?

I already have.

[ckaihatsu]

Sorry for the delay -- I haven't gotten any email updates lately, and so a few threads have slipped past me for about a week now.


---

PI, if I may, I'd like to point out that there's been an *international history* of *oppression* of these ethnic backgrounds, in the persons of the vignettes of experience that you've described.

Yes, of course. Who has denied this?

Okay, good to hear.

Not as an individual, but collectives are made of individuals. Making generalisations about ethnicities or races even if not directed at individuals is still offensive.

Yes, agreed, and I'll maintain that, politically, they're *regrettable*, since there's no real *point* in antagonizing random strangers, by demographics, for *anyone*.

A price to pay. So you believe there is a price to pay do you?

And I am not sure what my ethnic predecessors had to do with empire building or oppression of these peoples.

Well, that's the point -- we're *very* removed from the persons and times of our cultural / biological predecessors, so we shouldn't be the ones blamed for the world being as we found it.

I do support *reparations* for the social transgressions of the government in the past, notably *slavery*. I'll note that my own family received formal recognition of government bad policy, with the internment of the Nisei generation in concentration camps during WWII.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Lib ... ct_of_1988


---

I'm not saying that it's necessarily *appropriate*, since you are your own person, but it's certainly *understandable* when racism, sexism, and xenophobia *still* exist, and you happen to be of a culturally *hegemonic* demographic.

It's understandable but not acceptable.

Yes, agreed.

How do we quantify a relatively privileged experience of every day life?

*Quantify*? I guess by dollar values / income, roughly.


---

What can people from historically-oppressed backgrounds *do* about their consciousness of their oppressed cultures and increased continued closeness to poverty and powerlessness, into the present-day? Can they *sue*? Can they lobby representatives in the corridors of power to alter government policy? Can they get *reparations*? (Can people *currently* furloughed by the coronavirus get reparations? Many of the checks just haven't arrived yet, if ever.)

Yes, what you say is true but generally people with any level of intelligence won't generalise entire nationalities.

Yeah, I agree that random abuse of strangers is wholly inappropriate.


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If there is going to be an upheaval in the future, it will be caused by the far left and far right and their new versions that have developed over the last five years.

I *wish*, but the cops always wind up *protecting* the fascists at any given confrontational rally.

You claim that whites have enjoyed massive social privilege but if you look into the family histories of many white families it was not some sort of great big party. I am not sure where you are from, but a lot of American whites seem to think all whites have lived in middle class suburbs with cars, swimming pools and all the luxuries. For most of the whites in Europe it was hard work and low wages living in cramped living conditions and general privation. Is working as a general labourer for low wages or coughing your lungs out in factory some type of luxurious existence?

And of course WWI and WWII were just such a song and joy.

Hey, I *hear* you on all of this -- it's a *class* problem, and not a *race* one, really, though racism certainly does continue to exist, but I think it's mostly from the state now. I like to think that civil society is much better integrated and that people generally have civil-multicultural attitudes which is far removed from just a few decades ago.

An American black nationalist once told me that he thought socialism would not help his people because whites would still hold institutional power.

Yeah, a Farrakhan-type black nationalist *would* say something like this, which is unfortunate, though there's a lot of good political *info* (research) that comes out of black nationalism. I don't agree, myself, with the political 'separatism', as I call it, but it's certainly understandable, given the history of slavery, etc.

This kind of attitude -- from anyone -- tends to not-understand what socialism is all about, and it's obviously using a conception of *Stalinism* as a misinterpretation of 'socialism', which is very common around political discussions, in my experience.


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The way to *prove* that you're politically and really *not* around the far-right is to demonstrate *social consciousness* / global consciousness, particularly of the histories that would bring otherwise sane and intelligent people (of color) to *ridicule* you based on your outward appearance alone. I doubt that *anyone* would *want* to behave this way, but, again, there are real *frustrations*, from without, that box-people-in, in *their* experiences, resulting in the experiences that you've described.

I already have.

Okay, noted.


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Will you be able to *transcend* your own individuality, and personal experiences, PI?

I already have.

Okay -- the line you were talking is often attributed to a fascist-type perspective, which you seem to be aware of, so that was my only concern. Take care, I'll keep an eye out for updates on this thread.

[Rich]

I whole heartedly support reparations for slavery. The North West African successors to the Barbary slavers should pay reparations to Europe. Also we now recognise that African slavery was immoral and illegal. Hence the African sale of slaves to us was fraudulent. Africa should pay back the money that they falsely got by selling slaves.

[Saeko]

I whole heartedly support reparations for slavery. The North West African successors to the Barbary slavers should pay reparations to Europe. Also we now recognise that African slavery was immoral and illegal. Hence the African sale of slaves to us was fraudulent. Africa should pay back the money that they falsely got by selling slaves.

There are people in Africa who unironically agree with this. In at least one West African country, the monarchy is criticized for its role in the slave trade.

[Sivad]

i find all this hatred and lack of humanity that people go through about being human a big and hard hurdle to deal with every day. I think people on the whole need to mature mentally and emotionally enough to understand what their discriminatory thoughts wind up doing.

So have you matured mentally and emotionally enough to understand that your statements about white Americans being "lazy" "drug addicts" were hateful and lacking in humanity?