African-American Asphyxiated by Police in Minneapolis - Page 15 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15095318
@wat0n

Depends on how many civilians are armed. If you had a WHOLE BUNCH of civilians armed and shooting up the place, you would send in the national guard with fully militarized weapons, live ammunition, heavy weapons like .50 cal machine guns, night vision equipment, heavily armored humvees with bullet proof glass and impose a curfew. The troops would also assist police. Those troops would be used to enforce a curfew.

Anybody who is out past curfew runs the risk of being shot by those troops. An extreme measure like that might be the only way to restore order then. It's hard to distinguish who is armed given that weapons are easily concealed. So, a curfew with troops given the legal authority and wide latitude to exercise the use of lethal force given to enforce that curfew would probably be necessary though I would use that as the absolute last resort.

In Iraq, imposing curfews was used to combat the insurgency there with one exception: our forces had much wider latitude to legally use lethal force to enforce a curfew given you had a much bigger and more dangerous insurgency where they would have some Iraqis go out at night to dig holes and plant IEDs to kill our troops with and others could be carrying concealed weapons. The Iraqis were warned ahead of time about the curfew. The curfew was pretty effective in that case.
#15095320
Politics_Observer wrote:@wat0n

Depends on how many civilians are armed. If you had a WHOLE BUNCH of civilians armed and shooting up the place, you would send in the national guard with fully militarized weapons, live ammunition, heavy weapons like .50 cal machine guns, night vision equipment, heavily armored humvees with bullet proof glass and impose a curfew. The troops would also assist police. Those troops would be used to enforce a curfew.

Anybody who is out past curfew runs the risk of being shot by those troops. An extreme measure like that might be the only way to restore order then. It's hard to distinguish who is armed given that weapons are easily concealed. So, a curfew with troops given the legal authority and wide latitude to exercise the use of lethal force given to enforce that curfew would probably be necessary though I would use that as the absolute last resort.

In Iraq, imposing curfews was used to combat the insurgency there with one exception: our forces had much wider latitude to legally use lethal force to enforce a curfew given you had a much bigger and more dangerous insurgency where they would have some Iraqis go out at night to dig holes and plant IEDs to kill our troops with and others could be carrying concealed weapons. The Iraqis were warned ahead of time about the curfew. The curfew was pretty effective in that case.


Right, but that's my point: A Governor must not allow things to deteriorate to that level. And it can happen quickly since the population is already armed, there only needs to be a critical mass of people willing to use them for whatever reason and that's what you'll end up doing... At a greater cost of lives than acting quicker...
#15095321
Unthinking Majority wrote:I'm sure racism is a factor in black-on-black murder. I think racism in the past and present has left black people poorer than white people, and the conditions of poverty perpetuate crime. And i'd be naive to think cops and courts treat black people exactly the same as whites.

The problem with your argument and others who share the same ideology is that it works on a victim/oppressor dynamic where the victim is always felt sorry for and not deemed responsible for their own actions. The oppressor (in this case, whites) is always to blame. So while I acknowledge black people have been victimized, they also have to take responsibly for their own actions that also perpetuate their own poverty & high rates of crime.


I get where you're coming from, but consider this:

1) It is the responsibility of the government to serve and protect ALL of its people.

2) It is therefore the government that should be taking responsibility and leading the charge for racial equality.

3) This same government historically has been and continues to be the cause of many of the social ills that black Americans face.

4) This same government has repeatedly failed (and in the most egregious ways) even in its most basic responsibilities towards African Americans.

5) This same government refuses to take even a lick of accountability for its own crimes. The only time it seems to do so is when it is threatened with a complete breakdown of the social order.

6) These protests/riots are the appropriate and rational response to the above conditions.

Therefore, it is unproductive to tell black people to "take responsibility for their own situation". Instead, it would be a lot more productive for private citizens to spread awareness and understanding of the problems that black people face in this country.
Last edited by Saeko on 30 May 2020 03:43, edited 1 time in total.
#15095322
@wat0n

Just because a population is armed doesn't mean they are using their weapons to cause problems. It's one thing to loot and burn buildings. That's more of a crowd control and law enforcement problem. It's quite another thing to when you have a lot of civilians taking their weapons and using them to commit murders, create a lot of chaos and threaten law abiding citizens on a large scale. You want to use only the minimum amount of force necessary to restore order. I would certainly not want our national guard troops to have to turn their weapons on their own people if that is not necessary to restore order.
#15095328
Unthinking Majority wrote:I don't know if they're over-policed or not. You made the claim, and I'm asking for evidence. Maybe they are. Maybe they aren't. Let's look at the data.


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... tops-force

I've heard two theories: The first claims black communities are over-policed because cops hate blacks, and so blacks go to jail more often than white people, and this destroys black communities. The 2nd theory claims black communities are under-policed because cops hate blacks & don't give a crap about them, so crime is unchecked, and murder/gangs/drugs increases, and this destroys black communities. Is either of these correct? If so, let's see the data.


Since it is a fact that black communities are over policed, we can extrapolate from this an educated assumption that black families and black communities are harmed by it. We can also make an educated assumption that this has a ripple down effect in terms of gang violence and the socioeconomic pattern of crime rates.


The problem with your argument and others who share the same ideology is that it works on a victim/oppressor dynamic where the victim is always felt sorry for and not deemed responsible for their own actions. The oppressor (in this case, whites) is always to blame. So while I acknowledge black people have been victimized, they also have to take responsibly for their own actions that also perpetuate their own poverty & high rates of crime.


It's completely ludicrous that you would ask black people to "take responsibility for their own actions" when you have said absolutely nothing about how society might address systemic racism first. Nothing. All you do is acknowledge it as a disclaimer to cushion yourself against accusations of racism. Meanwhile you act as if the onus is on the black community, which is nothing more than a re-affirmation of the soft power of whiteness, an assertion of the prerogatives of whiteness as impartial arbiter.

For instance, there's been a big rise in single motherhood and teenage pregnancy among the black community since the 60's. White people aren't forcing black people to have sex with each other out of wedlock without proper birth control. White people also aren't forcing black people to pick up guns to shoot other black people, or forcing them to use & deal drugs, or to drop out of high school, or to join gangs.


White supremacism effectively disturbed and disrupted the historical development of the black family and continues to do so. It's incredibly problematic that you believe these trends can be changed in some kind of moralistic fashion without confronting its structural reproduction.

So while I acknowledge that white racists are responsible for creating much of the poverty that creates conditions for some of these things more likely to occur, black people also have to own their actions too. Otherwise any time a black person commits a crime we can just throw up our hands and excuse it because well it's not their fault, it's whitey's. And that won't help the problem.


No one is excusing criminal behavior. I'm just deconstructing the double standards you hold.

While black activists are asking young black people to protest racism and these bastard cops (which is great), black activists should also be telling young poor black people to use birth control & not get knocked up, to stop buying guns and shooting each other, stop doing & dealing drugs, stop joining criminal gangs, & stay in school & study hard. Because at the end of the day even if the US achieves perfect racial harmony poor black people aren't going to escape poverty and stay out of prison without doing those things too. I have friends who are racial minorities who grew up poor, but their parents made them study hard and stay out of trouble, & they went to college and got 6 figure jobs. What's their excuse?


It sounds like you're pretty ignorant about what black community organizers do and you have a stereotype in your mind of what a black activist is and what their priorities are. Let me assure you that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about, my dude.
Last edited by Donna on 30 May 2020 04:04, edited 1 time in total.
#15095329
MLK, Jr. on riots:

Urban riots must now be recognized as durable social phenomena. They may be deplored, but they are there and should be understood. Urban riots are a special form of violence. They are not insurrections. The rioters are not seeking to seize territory or to attain control of institutions. They are mainly intended to shock the white community. They are a distorted form of social protest. The looting which is their principal feature serves many functions. It enables the most enraged and deprived Negro to take hold of consumer goods with the ease the white man does by using his purse. Often the Negro does not even want what he takes; he wants the experience of taking. But most of all, alienated from society and knowing that this society cherishes property above people, he is shocking it by abusing property rights. There are thus elements of emotional catharsis in the violent act. This may explain why most cities in which riots have occurred have not had a repetition, even though the causative conditions remain. It is also noteworthy that the amount of physical harm done to white people other than police is infinitesimal and in Detroit whites and Negroes looted in unity.

A profound judgment of today’s riots was expressed by Victor Hugo a century ago. He said, ‘If a soul is left in the darkness, sins will be committed. The guilty one is not he who commits the sin, but he who causes the darkness.’

The policymakers of the white society have caused the darkness; they create discrimination; they structured slums; and they perpetuate unemployment, ignorance and poverty. It is incontestable and deplorable that Negroes have committed crimes; but they are derivative crimes. They are born of the greater crimes of the white society. When we ask Negroes to abide by the law, let us also demand that the white man abide by law in the ghettos. Day-in and day-out he violates welfare laws to deprive the poor of their meager allotments; he flagrantly violates building codes and regulations; his police make a mockery of law; and he violates laws on equal employment and education and the provisions for civic services. The slums are the handiwork of a vicious system of the white society; Negroes live in them but do not make them any more than a prisoner makes a prison. Let us say boldly that if the violations of law by the white man in the slums over the years were calculated and compared with the law-breaking of a few days of riots, the hardened criminal would be the white man. These are often difficult things to say but I have come to see more and more that it is necessary to utter the truth in order to deal with the great problems that we face in our society.


https://www.motherjones.com/politics/20 ... ban-riots/
#15095330
Donna wrote:It sounds like you're pretty ignorant about what black community organizers do and you have a stereotype in your mind of what a black activist is and what their priorities are. Let me assure you that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about, my dude.


I think he has a point, although he somewhat forgets that structural racism means it is harder to let them learn and exercise on more productive ways. The above quote is IMHO too harsh and needs some explanation.
#15095333
I think the riots are irrelevant.

If you want to know why riots are happening, the reason is super simple: the racist murderer is probably going to get away with it, just like almost every other time.

Yes, rioting is bad, but a police officer just cold bloodedly killed a man. Property damage does not even begin to compare.
#15095335
Saeko wrote:I get where you're coming from, but consider this:

1) It is the responsibility of the government to serve and protect ALL of its people.

2) It is therefore the government that should be taking responsibility and leading the charge for racial equality.

3) This same government historically has been and continues to be the cause of many of the social ills that black Americans face.

4) This same government has repeatedly failed (and in the most egregious ways) even in its most basic responsibilities towards African Americans.

5) This same government refuses to take even a lick of accountability for its own crimes. The only time it seems to do so is when it is threatened with a complete breakdown of the social order.

6) These protests/riots are the appropriate and rational response to the above conditions.


I agree with all of your points, although #6 is controversial. Protests are obviously justified. I would think riots would not be appropriate unless the cops were never charged and found innocent in court when they were clearly guilty.

Therefore, it is unproductive to tell black people to "take responsibility for their own situation". Instead, it would be a lot more productive for private citizens to spread awareness and understanding of the problems that black people face in this country.


My point is that both need to be done, not one or the other. All people have rights and responsibilities.
#15095337
Saeko wrote:You condemn the police with one side of your mouth while glorifying violence against black people with the other!


I did no such thing and NEVER have advocated violence against any people on this forum.

And if you think that I did so by posting the roof Korean meme than you just don't get the joke, or the whole irony of the situation. And I am not going to waste any time trying to explain why it is more of a joke than it is anything else.

On a more serious note, it hurts me to think that you...YOU would think that I am being racist and actually want to see black people getting killed.

I mean, I can take that kind of abuse from the likes of SpecialOlympian, Godstud and the rest of the usual suspects, but I would have never expected such hurtful sentiments from you.

And it truly saddens me to think that you would think that my heart would be that hardened that I would be glorifying violence against black people

Image

CNN is under siege. Isn't think like the equivalent of an attack on a US Embassy or something?

Last edited by maz on 30 May 2020 04:25, edited 1 time in total.
#15095338
Politics_Observer wrote:@wat0n

Just because a population is armed doesn't mean they are using their weapons to cause problems. It's one thing to loot and burn buildings. That's more of a crowd control and law enforcement problem. It's quite another thing to when you have a lot of civilians taking their weapons and using them to commit murders, create a lot of chaos and threaten law abiding citizens on a large scale. You want to use only the minimum amount of force necessary to restore order. I would certainly not want our national guard troops to have to turn their weapons on their own people if that is not necessary to restore order.


Sure, but the military needs to be ready because things can escalate rather quickly. Even without any particularly harsh government action, it could occur that it's the law abiding citizens who in the process of defending their property from looters using lethal force - which can be legal under the Castle Doctrine depending on a case by case basis and even if not it's hard to stop - further enrage the protesters and escalate things further.

Now, going back to the case: It turns out that Floyd worked with Chauvin. If they knew each other, and it turns out they didn't get along, this is likely first/second degree murder. And in that case, it's unclear to me up to what extent this is about racism - is this bigotry or it was personal?
#15095339
MN Targets:
Image

I'm actually really curious to see polling over Trump's Tweets. Does the general public support looting and burning because the cops wrongly kill someone who fits into a problem-ridden demographic once every several years? I doubt it's gotten there yet. Maybe some day. And once that day comes, we won't have things like Target anymore. Most consumerism would need to happen over the internet, with goods delivered by armored car. Equality!

As for racism, if you look at the pictures, there are plenty of white AntiFA who drove down there in daddy's car to loot and burn shit. Shoot the too please :excited:
Last edited by Wulfschilde on 30 May 2020 04:35, edited 1 time in total.
#15095341
Wulfschilde wrote:I'm actually really curious to see polling over Trump's Tweets. Does the general public support looting and burning because the cops wrongly kill someone who fits into a problem-ridden demographic once every several years? I doubt it's gotten there yet. Maybe some day. And once that day comes, we won't have things like Target anymore. Most consumerism would need to happen over the internet, with goods delivered by armored car. Equality!


So you have no problem with racist cops killing unarmed people, but some property damage really deserves attention?
#15095342
Pants-of-dog wrote:So you have no problem with racist cops killing unarmed people, but some property damage really deserves attention?

You barely beat my edit. As I wrote, there were plenty of white AntiFA who drove down there in daddy's car to loot and burn. Shoot them too :excited:

With that said, yes, Demographic differences in criminal behavior do exist. This article is dated but police brutality in South Africa has been on a steady rise: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/ ... y-increase

Similarly with South American cartels. Those guys often aren't even policed by the regular police, they're often policed by the military.

In the Muslim world, if the Muslim authorities think that someone is part of a radical Islamic group, they knock on their door with a tank or something.

The truth is that whites and east Asians are pretty mellow when it comes to physical crime, preferring white collar crime and scams. This in turn makes policing easier. And it's mostly white people screeching about the unfairness of it all. As for the looters? It's literally the kinds of people who loot and burn whom force the police to treat potential black male criminals with greater caution. That's the truth. :)
#15095343
Wulfschilde wrote:You barely beat my edit. As I wrote, there were plenty of white AntiFA who drove down there in daddy's car to loot and burn. Shoot them too :excited:


So yes, you do think very little of a man’s death at the hands of government officials, but you really care about some broken windows.

With that said, yes, Demographic differences in criminal behavior do exist. This article is dated but police brutality in South Africa has been on a steady rise: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/ ... y-increase

Similarly with South American cartels. Those guys often aren't even policed by the regular police, they're often policed by the military.

In the Muslim world, if the Muslim authorities think that someone is part of a radical Islamic group, they knock on their door with a tank or something.

The truth is that whites and east Asians are pretty mellow when it comes to physical crime, preferring white collar crime and scams. This in turn makes policing easier. And it's mostly white people screeching about the unfairness of it all. As for the looters? It's literally the kinds of people who loot and burn whom force the police to treat potential black male criminals with greater caution. That's the truth. :)


I did not bother to read the whole racist argument.

i assume this is just another wordy way of saying blacks are criminals.

No. That is racist and almost certainly wrong. And I bet you will provide no evidence.

Instead, let us discuss why people like you think property damage is more important than extrajudicial killings. Care to explain?
#15095348
Pants-of-dog wrote:So yes, you do think very little of a man’s death at the hands of government officials, but you really care about some broken windows.



I did not bother to read the whole racist argument.

i assume this is just another wordy way of saying blacks are criminals.

No. That is racist and almost certainly wrong. And I bet you will provide no evidence.

Instead, let us discuss why people like you think property damage is more important than extrajudicial killings. Care to explain?

I've been to ghettos where the local KFC is fully barred up so that people can't rob the fried chicken joint. They give out the chicken through a little window in the bullet-proof glass. That's dedication, no wonder KFC can be found all over the world.

The Amazon+armored car thing is the future of commerce if burning shit down becomes normal every time there's police brutality because in the thing you didn't read, there's massive police brutality throughout Africa because of the way that Africans commit crimes. The lax policing seen in white and east Asian countries is the exception, not the norm. Most criminals are violent and have to be dealt with very firmly, some people will die, there is no way around that.

Ultimately though we are looking at a long and slow decline in the west, until it's comparable to Brazil, at which point people will give up and elect Bolsonaro-like figures and give everyone an assault rifle. The things that ivory tower liberals whine about can't even be argued as being feasible anymore so at this point it's little more than a question of how we get there.
#15095349
Saeko wrote:Therefore, it is unproductive to tell black people to "take responsibility for their own situation". Instead, it would be a lot more productive for private citizens to spread awareness and understanding of the problems that black people face in this country.


They did try to take responsibility for their own situation once. It was called the Black Panthers, and they were ruthlessly murdered by the FBI for doing things like providing children with breakfast, exercising their second amendment rights, providing oversight to the police in their neighborhood, and providing access to healthcare.

It is one of the greatest injustices perpetrated by the FBI, second only to their framing of hero-patriot General Flynn.

maz wrote:And it truly saddens me to think that you would think that my heart would be that hardened that I would be glorifying violence against black people


You once had a lot of ~legitimate questions~ about the validity of a Congressional bill that simply acknowledged America's history of lynching black people. Nobody is buying your bullshit you racist.

Like, I can't stress this enough: you need to go outside. You really, really suck at trolling.

Wulfschilde wrote:Ultimately though we are looking at a long and slow decline in the west, until it's comparable to Brazil, at which point people will give up and elect Bolsonaro-like figures and give everyone an assault rifle. The things that ivory tower liberals whine about can't even be argued as being feasible anymore so at this point it's little more than a question of how we get there.


I have some bad news for you about the differences between Bolsonaro and Trump.
Last edited by SpecialOlympian on 30 May 2020 04:58, edited 1 time in total.
#15095351
@Wulfschilde

No one cares.

This thread is about the killing of George Floyd.

——————————-

Turns out that the murdering police officer had previously been involved in another police killing of a person of colour:

https://www.aptnnews.ca/national-news/m ... n-in-2006/

    Minneapolis police officer charged in death of George Floyd was involved in shooting of Ojibwe man in 2006
    Priscilla Wolf
    May 29, 2020

    The family of an Ojibwe man in Minnesota says the officer who was fired and then charged with the death of George Floyd is the same man who killed their relative more than a dozen years ago.

    Wayne Reyes was a member of the Leech Lake Ojibwe Band in Minnesota.

    In October 2006, he was shot and killed by six Minneapolis police officers who were answering a call about a stabbing outside a pharmacy.

    After a car chase, Reyes allegedly got out of his vehicle with a shotgun.

    According to the autopsy report, Reyes was shot 23 times.

    According to media reports, Chauvin was one of the officers who responded to the call.

    Chauvin has now been charged with 3rd degree murder in Floyd’s death.

    “I don’t watch TV, but right away my phone was blowing up and every one was sending me articles and it was George Floyd and in the article it mentioned my fathers name,” said Wayne Reyes, one of Wayne Reyes’ children.

    Daniel Reyes is Wayne’s brother.

    He says watching the coverage of the events in Minnesota is hard to watch.

    “I worked in civil rights and yes, they assassinated my brother so finally after 14 years their might be a little justice,” he said.

    The six officers involved in the killing of Wayne Reyes were cleared of any wrong doing.

    In a video that has been seen around the world, Chauvin can be seen kneeling on Floyd’s neck.

    Floyd, an African American, can be heard saying “I can’t breathe.”

    Riots have consumed parts of Minneapolis following Floyd’s death.

    While Chauvin and three officers who were on the scene when Floyd was killed were fired immediately, they weren’t initially charged in his death.
#15095353
Red_Army wrote:Law and order serves a specific purpose to uphold a certain strata of society while grinding another into dust and spitting in their face at the same time. For the former group this is wonderful and for the latter it's terror. When this situation ever so slightly flips its all pearl clutching. Law and order is reaping what it sowed @Kaiserschmarrn I know we won't agree on this so goodnight.

You are right again that we don't agree, but at the very least you must know that it's not law and order which is actually punished by people unleashing destruction on whole neighbourhoods.

Saeko wrote:There are two distinctions to be made here.

1. The distinction between law and order and a state of lawlessness.

and

2. The distinction between the police being in control and the police not being in control.

What was in place before the riots, was a state of lawlessness where the police can get away with murder. All that's changed now is that the real criminals have lost control of the situation. Which is an improvement.

There are certainly some in the police which get away with murder, but that's surely not the equivalent of a general state of lawlessness which is what I would call a breakdown of law and order.

For whom is the rioting going to be an actual improvement now and going forward, except for presumably making you and some other people feel better?

noemon wrote:I am guessing Kaiser is hoping to blame the protesters for supposedly the "residents fleeing", while neglecting to

1) see them(residents) as collateral just like she sees many other groups of people during revolutionary & violent events.
2) see this for what it is, a rightful response not only to police brutality but to a vehement State refusal to bring these criminal people to justice.

Why would you assume ulterior motives? I thought I was agreeing with Red_Army when I replied that he is right that this is a bit more than a riot because of the reports that police and firefighters were told to stand down. How is calling that a breakdown of law and order even controversial?
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