African-American Asphyxiated by Police in Minneapolis - Page 24 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Talk about what you've seen in the news today.

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#15095624
Our resident shitheads are going to continue to talk about how riots ~only destroy precious property~ and ~hurt the real residents~ while ignoring 1) that the residents found the norms of the society they lived in to be untenable and 2) police are both instigators and agitators of the violence.

They will also ignore stories like this, choosing instead to believe AntiFa super soldiers funded by Soros were directing the riots and protests.



#15095627
Unthinking Majority wrote:Uhm like choice. Have you considered the possibility that black people may be pulled over more than white people because they commit more traffic violations?


Another racist dog whistle.


I certainly think racism is a factor, along with poverty that has been greatly influenced by the history of racism in the country. There are other factors like personal choices, culture etc. In south asian cultures for instance, sex outside marriage is frowned upon and divorce rate is very low because they don't believe in it, so you don't have a high rate of broken families and single mothers that are a factor in poverty. In east asian countries, parents put a huge emphasis on education. Asian-American students aren't good at math because of genetics, they're good at math because their parents force their kids to study it from an early age outside of school. A lot of asian friends I knew growing up could play the piano or violin. They weren't born with that ability, their parents made them learn it.

https://www.parentingscience.com/chinese-parenting.html


Ah, there it is. The classic "how can I be racist when I acknowledge Asians are smart" trope that nazis always hide behind. :roll:
#15095628
noemon wrote:You are a racist & quite obviously so. You are quite unhinged about it and it's obvious and transparent. Come to terms with it and move on with your life. You won't change anybody's mind with denials but with pro-active actions such as not apologising for racism, not making excuses about it and not openly arguing for it under the guise of something else. If you don't want to be racist, you should stop doing all these things first and then hope that people would change their mind about you. And once again, you are not a victim, you are not a victim, get it through your head, you are being dealt with the same consistency as every other racist out there. Being called a racist, is not hurt, dying at the hands of the racists you apologise for is actual hurt.


What racists am I apologizing for? Please name them. Be specific. I condemned the disgusting actions of the cop who murdered Floyd many times in this thread, never have I said what he did what just.

You enter in the middle of a long debate i'm having with someone else and disagree with my last arguments by falsely calling me a racist. That doesn't address my points, it's just name-calling. You can keep saying it, it doesn't make it true.
#15095629
You are trying to distract from the topic by blaming Black people for their condition(victim-blaming and racist dog whistling) and you were shamelessly defending the youtuber posting explicitly racist videos while at the same time trying to censor me and Donna. :lol: Your racist double standards are both obvious and true.
#15095630
noemon wrote:You are excusing racism, you are just too scared to proceed with the logical conclusions of your argumentation with me and that is why you leave it at empty generic platitudes.


No, I am just a realist. We will never get rid of discrimination. Asking racist people not to be racist works very poorly. The only way to make racism better is to change a negative stereotype into a positive stereotype. There is no other way. Asking white people to come and help only works for so long. In fact the ones that help do so by practicing condescending racism of low expectations.
#15095631
Unthinking Majority wrote:What racists am I apologizing for? Please name them. Be specific. I condemned the disgusting actions of the cop who murdered Floyd many times in this thread, never have I said what he did what just.

You enter in the middle of a long debate i'm having with someone else and disagree with my last arguments by falsely calling me a racist. That doesn't address my points, it's just name-calling. You can keep saying it, it doesn't make it true.


At best, all you're doing is diffusing responsibility for what happened. Aimlessly pointing the finger at anything and everything to take focus away from the real problem. In case you haven't noticed, WE ALREADY HAVE INSTITUTIONS AND PROCEDURES FOR DEALING WITH ORDINARY CRIMINALS. What we don't have is the same for criminal cops. And whatever we do have is a travesty.

How do you not see that it is precisely the arguments and attitudes like the ones you're spewing here that perpetuate the problem to begin with? How the hell is that so hard to understand? How? Do you even have a fucking brain, man? I just don't fucking get it.
#15095633
Maybe reducing the argument ad hitlerum would help.

Have you ever wondered why no person in their right mind points out the obvious fact that, among the holocaust victims, there were probably some there who deserved it? Child rapists, serial killers, etc.? You know why? BECAUSE IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER! Could the Jews have done more to prevent the holocaust? Probably. BUT IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER!

To do so would be to equate the victims with evil! HOW THE HELL IS THAT A REASONABLE POSITION, EVER?

God fucking damn it.
#15095636
Saeko wrote:Maybe reducing the argument ad hitlerum would help.

Have you ever wondered why no person in their right mind points out the obvious fact that, among the holocaust victims, there were probably some there who deserved it? Child rapists, serial killers, etc.? You know why? BECAUSE IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER! Could the Jews have done more to prevent the holocaust? Probably. BUT IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER!

To do so would be to equate the victims with evil! HOW THE HELL IS THAT A REASONABLE POSITION, EVER?

God fucking damn it.


I am actually not sure why the US policing system doesn't punish this and why cops defend the actions of other cops in this regard. This phenomenon seems to be especially prevalent in US while in Europe it is a lot less. Even if we exclude the culprits race/skin colour. Still, the killer needs to have a fair trial and they do take some time, it would never be instant even if the US system was good in this regard. The riots are definitely sending a message and you are right that going somewhere where the rich and powerful reside will have a huge effect.

I am kidna split on this. Riots are illegal and should be put down by the police or the national guard. On the other hand they do serve a purpose. Also sending the national guard to confront the rioters will be very unpopular and Trump is already down an almost no-return hole. So he won't do it, he will wait until the governers do it so to blame them.

The real question thought is how to fix the US policing system in this regard? What exactly is malfunctioning? How do you fix it? Simply saying that cops are racists or pigs is not going to get us anywhere. To be fair to police, they are doing their job so they get labelled pigs and racists. There should be stricter punishments for police who use execcive violence up to jail time. But then again, this will weaken the police apparatus and is against the idea of police.
#15095637
Saeko wrote:At best, all you're doing is diffusing responsibility for what happened. Aimlessly pointing the finger at anything and everything to take focus away from the real problem.


How am I "diffusing responsibility for what happened"? From whatever evidence we've seen so far the cop is 100% at fault for murdering Floyd and should be held criminally accountable, and i've never said anything to the contrary.

In case you haven't noticed, WE ALREADY HAVE INSTITUTIONS AND PROCEDURES FOR DEALING WITH ORDINARY CRIMINALS. What we don't have is the same for criminal cops. And whatever we do have is a travesty.


Yes I agree with this. Though even though we have lots of prisons for ordinary criminals it doesn't seem to be curing the problem of crime in the black community, which is one of the things I was debating Donna about. He said we need to fix structural racism to cure the problem, while I said we need to fix structural racism plus also change certain behaviours. But apparently it's racist to say that :roll:
#15095639
@JohnRawls

How to fix it?

Simple:

1. Abolishing the private prison system with a constitutional amendment to the 13th amendment:

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

2. Reparations for slavery.

Would be a great start.
#15095641
The only way to stop this is to make the police leadership PERSONALLY responsible for stopping it. It has to be crystal clear that any sergeant whose men use excessive violence will be suspended and possibly fired. Even if they are not there.

I don't know why this is so hard. It is how the military works. I was responsible at a very personal level for not only the performance but also the behavior of my men. Discipline is the supervisor/leader's MOST important responsibility in any job. Any job. The patrol sergeant of these men should be immediately suspended and probably demoted. The Chief of Police put on notice that if anything like this happens again he is gone. If I was the mayor and had the authority I would fire this chief of police today.

Police are only as good or bad as the training and standards they are held to.

There is another point to make. The officer who now faces third degree murder charges and who knows what federal charges, it appears, has had many complaints about this stuff in the past. If his leadership had trained and disciplined him then (or cut him loose) HIS life would not be ruined as well. I learned in the army that being tough but fair benefited my men even when they could not see it.

So time for this Chief of Police to go. Hire a new one from outside the department and tell him/her to clean up dodge in a year or go away.
#15095642
America never had a moment like Germany did where they formally acknowledged the crimes they committed against a specific portion of the citizenry. We're seeing the results of that.

Meanwhile, on the right, prominent reactionary thinkers like PragerU are asking hard hitting questions like, "Why can't I say The Word? I need to say the word. I can't tell you why, but I need to say it."

DrLee wrote:The only way to stop this is to make the police leadership PERSONALLY responsible for stopping it. It has to be crystal clear that any sergeant whose men use excessive violence will be suspended and possibly fired. Even if they are not there.


There's no effective way to implement this since all policing is local/state level. That's why you have disparities in violence across different departments.
#15095644
Here's a great example of white privilege:



Believing that you have permission to show up armed and start attacking people at a protest because you have special permission to be armed and enforce the law. When you live in a complete fantasy world where you believe your fat, wheezing ass has special permission to go out and inflict violence on people who you perceive to be stepping out of line and not knowing their place. Also lol @ "All lives matter!" as he's nocking his bow to go human hunting.
Last edited by SpecialOlympian on 31 May 2020 02:17, edited 1 time in total.
#15095645
Drlee wrote:The only way to stop this is to make the police leadership PERSONALLY responsible for stopping it. It has to be crystal clear that any sergeant whose men use excessive violence will be suspended and possibly fired. Even if they are not there.

I don't know why this is so hard. It is how the military works. I was responsible at a very personal level for not only the performance but also the behavior of my men. Discipline is the supervisor/leader's MOST important responsibility in any job. Any job. The patrol sergeant of these men should be immediately suspended and probably demoted. The Chief of Police put on notice that if anything like this happens again he is gone. If I was the mayor and had the authority I would fire this chief of police today.

Police are only as good or bad as the training and standards they are held to.

There is another point to make. The officer who now faces third degree murder charges and who knows what federal charges, it appears, has had many complaints about this stuff in the past. If his leadership had trained and disciplined him then (or cut him loose) HIS life would not be ruined as well. I learned in the army that being tough but fair benefited my men even when they could not see it.

So time for this Chief of Police to go. Hire a new one from outside the department and tell him/her to clean up dodge in a year or go away.


I agree with this. You need training, oversight, and accountability. The 3 officers watching the man die are also guilty. Like many workplaces, the cops have a culture of protecting their own, even when it's wrong. This has to stop, and it goes all the way to the top for allowing it. The mayors have to fix the police departments.
#15095646
JohnRawls wrote:I am actually not sure why the US policing system doesn't punish this and why cops defend the actions of other cops in this regard. This phenomenon seems to be especially prevalent in US while in Europe it is a lot less. Even if we exclude the culprits race/skin colour. Still, the killer needs to have a fair trial and they do take some time, it would never be instant even if the US system was good in this regard. The riots are definitely sending a message and you are right that going somewhere where the rich and powerful reside will have a huge effect.

I am kidna split on this. Riots are illegal and should be put down by the police or the national guard. On the other hand they do serve a purpose. Also sending the national guard to confront the rioters will be very unpopular and Trump is already down an almost no-return hole. So he won't do it, he will wait until the governers do it so to blame them.

The real question thought is how to fix the US policing system in this regard? What exactly is malfunctioning? How do you fix it? Simply saying that cops are racists or pigs is not going to get us anywhere. To be fair to police, they are doing their job so they get labelled pigs and racists. There should be stricter punishments for police who use execcive violence up to jail time. But then again, this will weaken the police apparatus and is against the idea of police.


The police are part of the criminal justice system of the USA. Many studies have found innate bias in sentencing, and privatizing prisons is making it an incentive to throw people in jail John Rawls. Even for petty crimes that used to be never eligible for imprisonment. It effects poorer people since they rarely have the bail funds or the lawyer funds to pay for fighting charges. They plea and accept sentences even when they are innocent since paying the many thousands of dollars to bail out of the prison system is too much for them to come up with.

Most judges and jury sometimes tend to be chosen kind of without much consideration for proper socioeconomic backgrounds. What do I mean by that? That you have juries who never lived or worked or even visited the defendant's neighborhood or county or area of the city. They don't share a lot of characteristics. Another thing is that juries are filled with people who speak English natively. My husband got off of jury duty because his English was not native. Which meant that Latinos who were accused of crimes and tried for those crimes never had the same linguistic or cultural group judging them for the crime or charges. Translators have to be certified and many jurors don't get most of what is said. They have to be fast and it is not something that they process well. if you study the whole system? It doesn't serve justice. Only the very very wealthy and the ones who could afford lawyers that challenge the jury selection people well because they have supplementary legal support crews to help the main defense lawyer.

The entire system is very inefficient as well. People can get off of jury duty due to having dependent adults and or for being immigrants, for many reasons. But many people come up with excuses because they don't pay you at all for jury service in many districts. Each day you are there deliberating or listening to testimony? You are not making your regular salary. You are losing money. Students are not excused and can easily be absent during finals and are distracted waiting for the damn trial to be over to take their final exams that were postponed or delayed due to jury duty.

Parking in an urban busy area that is astronomically expensive is a problem. Bus routes being congested and having to wake up hours before the start of a trial during peak traffic hours is another. Following the instructions of the judges that can be tedious and long winded. You got the security guards patting everyone down and etc. I used to be a court interpreter in federal and local courts. I also was a juror is three different trials. You vote? You are stuck with the jury summons. You don't show they put out a warrant for your arrest.

You must go. The entire system sucks in many ways. It is about MONEY. How much you can pay. To whom. For legal defense in criminal or civil trials.

If you can't afford it? Expect a plea deal, a guilty verdict and time in the slammer run by a for profit prison system that is making money for a longer sentence than what is necessary or customary. A permanent criminal record reduces your ability to get hired by a significant amount of employers and bars you for life from collecting welfare, or qualifying for affordable housing programs. It will bar you from a large group of professions for life such as social work, teaching, nursing, police or law enforcement, firefighting, managing any money at a bank, financial advising, engineering, retail, and many others.

I hope that answered you thoroughly.
#15095647
Saeko wrote:@JohnRawls

How to fix it?

Simple:

1. Abolishing the private prison system with a constitutional amendment to the 13th amendment:

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

2. Reparations for slavery.

Would be a great start.


This only vague touches the problem of the US Policing system. I am not saying what you brought up is okay but regarding this, it is not a solution because it tackles relatively not related things. US police will still not get punished for excessive use of force and killing of people even if the reparations are paid and the prison system is privatised. This is just piling all social issues under one umbrella.

Drlee solution is more or less okay but the problem is that it has elements of colective punishment in it. I don't think that such a system is "legally" reasonable in a democratic society unless you are in the military.
#15095649
Tainari88 wrote:The police are part of the criminal justice system of the USA. Many studies have found innate bias in sentencing, and privatizing prisons is making it an incentive to throw people in jail John Rawls. Even for petty crimes that used to be never eligible for imprisonment. It effects poorer people since they rarely have the bail funds or the lawyer funds to pay for fighting charges. They plea and accept sentences even when they are innocent since paying the many thousands of dollars to bail out of the prison system is too much for them to come up with.

Most judges and jury sometimes tend to be chosen kind of without much consideration for proper socioeconomic backgrounds. What do I mean by that? That you have juries who never lived or worked or even visited the defendant's neighborhood or county or area of the city. They don't share a lot of characteristics. Another thing is that juries are filled with people who speak English natively. My husband got off of jury duty because his English was not native. Which meant that Latinos who were accused of crimes and tried for those crimes never had the same linguistic or cultural group judging them for the crime or charges. Translators have to be certified and many jurors don't get most of what is said. They have to be fast and it is not something that they process well. if you study the whole system? It doesn't serve justice. Only the very very wealthy and the ones who could afford lawyers that challenge the jury selection people well because they have supplementary legal support crews to help the main defense lawyer.

The entire system is very inefficient as well. People can get off of jury duty due to having dependent adults and or for being immigrants, for many reasons. But many people come up with excuses because they don't pay you at all for jury service in many districts. Each day you are there deliberating or listening to testimony? You are not making your regular salary. You are losing money. Students are not excused and can easily be absent during finals and are distracted waiting for the damn trial to be over to take their final exams that were postponed or delayed due to jury duty.

Parking in an urban busy area that is astronomically expensive is a problem. Bus routes being congested and having to wake up hours before the start of a trial during peak traffic hours is another. Following the instructions of the judges that can be tedious and long winded. You got the security guards patting everyone down and etc. I used to be a court interpreter in federal and local courts. I also was a juror is three different trials. You vote? You are stuck with the jury summons. You don't show they put out a warrant for your arrest.

You must go. The entire system sucks in many ways. It is about MONEY. How much you can pay. To whom. For legal defense in criminal or civil trials.

If you can't afford it? Expect a plea deal, a guilty verdict and time in the slammer run by a for profit prison system that is making money for a longer sentence than what is necessary or customary. A permanent criminal record reduces your ability to get hired by a significant amount of employers and bars you for life from collecting welfare, or qualifying for affordable housing programs. It will bar you from a large group of professions for life such as social work, teaching, nursing, police or law enforcement, firefighting, managing any money at a bank, financial advising, engineering, retail, and many others.

I hope that answered you thoroughly.


I understand all that Tainari. I understand the social imbalance that this brings and why it happens. The real issue here is that we are currently tackling the use of police violence for no reason and not all social issues that exist. Once again, i do not disagree with all what you said. I agree with it. It is a problem.

So what is the fix for the police so this doesn't happen again? How do you implement it US wide?
#15095650
JohnRawls wrote:This only vague touches the problem of the US Policing system. I am not saying what you brought up is okay but regarding this, it is not a solution because it tackles relatively not related things.


A) This is the start.

B) If you think the privatizations of prisons and the use of prison labor for profit is unrelated to police brutality you haven't been paying attention.
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