[Saeko]

The police are innocent, pure, baby puppy, butterfly cuddlykins! They would never attack an innocent civilian unprovoked, derp!

[Julian658]

Admin edit: One line off-topic

[Atlantis]

This is utterly shocking.

Trump's Gestapo storm-troopers terrorizing Americans with impunity.

They are doing this in broad daylight and in front of the cameras because they know the president doesn't mind police brutality. He even encouraged them to use more brutality back in 2017.

[wat0n]

Lawlessness is down to the State itself and the police. The state is the one that has the responsibility to protect people and to prevent situations from going there in the first place. Using their deaths to tell people to sit down and not claim their rights as people is both wrong and immoral especially when these deaths were not attributed to protestors as far as I can tell. Clearly your priorities place higher value to certain groups over others as you carry on arguing that this system of injustice may be perpetuated because Black people and their White supporters for justice might cause collateral damage. Collateral damage is the responsibility of the state refusing to address the grievances and permitting things to balloon out of control.

Certainly the State is responsible as well. But citizens have a duty, too, to respect the law so this doesn't happen and this is even more so given that there is recourse. Having a justified grievance doesn't give you right to riot and get people killed as a result of the ensuing lawlessness

And no, I don't "place higher value on some groups over the others". People who see no issue with looting, arson, battery and murder of innocents on the other hand...

And as I said, here's the biggest troll ever in his alt-account:



He will go ahead with the "law and order" angle. The same guy who was telling people to disobey the stay at home orders just a few weeks ago

[noemon]

Certainly the State is responsible as well. But citizens have a duty, too, to respect the law so this doesn't happen and this is even more so given that there is recourse. Having a justified grievance doesn't give you right to riot and get people killed as a result of the ensuing lawlessness

Your crocodile tears do not stand up to either logic or scrutiny. Having a justified grievance gives you the right to hold your government accountable by any means necessary, if your state is pathetic and engages in violence with you that is precisely the problem. When the state takes off its gloves and its mask, then you cannot be sitting here trying to blame the victims of the state's brutality. And if you are still incapable of comprehending this, go back to Saeko's ad hitlerum argument. The reason people are not pointing out the child rapists and murderers among Jewish victims of the Nazis is because victim blaming is never a valid position to take.

From Atlantis's post:

And as I said, here's the biggest troll ever in his alt-account:

I don't even know what you mean and to be frank I do not even care to know.

[Godstud]

Will justice be provided to the people who were murdered as a result of the lawlessness last night too? Is that a priority to you?

Who has been murdered? I can find no evidence of deaths from the rioting.

Are you looking for an excuse to condemn riots, that isn't there?

[Zionist Nationalist]

look at those "protesters" fighting capitalism

[Julian658]

The levels of delusion ITT are absolutely incredible. I think the cancerous selectively silent majority is simply too emotionally fragile to even let themselves process the full horror of what is going on right now. They simply can't deal with reality because their whole world-view and illusion of safety and innocence would come crashing down.

If there ever was a time to put the 2nd Amendment to good use, it would be now. But instead, Americans all over the internet are cheering the cops on whenever they perpetrate some new brutality against their fellow Americans.

Ask yourselves which is the worse crime: taking lives or destroying property? Running people over with cars or obstructing traffic?

I agree 00%.

And I would say that nearly 99% of conservatives in America felt the murder of George Floyd was a tragedy. This was an important moment even for the most racist people in America. But, then they see the looting and the violence and the racists return to their preconceived notions. They assume many are there not to protest, but to take advantage of the situation and loot and burn the city down. BTW, there are many white antifa types in these protests destroying private property.

I keep saying that the only way to fix racism is to change the stereotype.

[Godstud]

The murder of George Floyd was not a tragedy. It was an extreme injustice.

It doesn't take 4 days to charge someone with murder, when you have video evidence.

Do you mean change the stereotype of racist cops killing black people with impunity and the justice system backing the murderer and not the victim?

I am sure there are many more fascist types looting and burning.

[Patrickov]

I keep saying that the only way to fix racism is to change the stereotype.

Stereotype is a perception and I think everybody has freedom to form some kind of stereotype in their mind.

The problem is, everyone should also have a set of protocol in action, speech, etc. that no stereotype should override.

It doesn't take 4 days to charge someone with murder, when you have video evidence.

While not perfect and totally needs to be questioned (as being done by whoever out there protesting instead of burning stuff), at least they have some action.

And I have seen Israel is having someone making a start by making apology on a wrongful killing.

There are places where the injustice has been even worse.

[wat0n]

You crocodile tears do not stand up to either logic or scrutiny. Having a justified grievance gives you the right to hold your government accountable by any means necessary, if your state is pathetic and engages in violence with you that is precisely the problem. When the state takes off its gloves and its mask, then you cannot be sitting here trying to blame the victims of the state's brutality.

From Atlantis's post:

It's pretty awful but no different from how the police acts everywhere. Here's Greek police for that matter, be it in 2011:

Or 2020:

I don't even know what you mean to be frank do not even care to know.

I'm just commenting on how this election campaign is set to look like. This is a disaster.

Who has been murdered? I can find no evidence of deaths from the rioting.

Are you looking for an excuse to condemn riots, that isn't there?

I already posted an example from where I live, but go ahead. Oh and no, I didn't say he was murdered by a rioter, I said it was from the lawlessness caused by the riots in case you try to play that silly game with me.

[Saeko]

It doesn't take 4 days to charge someone with murder, when you have video evidence.

Unless you live in The United States of Western China.

[Zionist Nationalist]

The murder of George Floyd was not a tragedy. It was an extreme injustice.

It doesn't take 4 days to charge someone with murder, when you have video evidence.

Do you mean change the stereotype of racist cops killing black people with impunity and the justice system backing the murderer and not the victim?

I am sure there are many more fascist types looting and burning.

It was both injustice and tragedy but it dosent excuse such barbarism
If they were burning police stations and politician houses instead of burning down properties of people that have nothing to do with that most people would support them including me. all they achieved is to divide the people even more than before and inflame the hate

[noemon]

It's pretty awful but no different from how the police acts everywhere. Here's Greek police for that matter, be it in 2011:

Or 2020:

1) If you have not seen these videos, perhaps you should before you post them and prove the opposite of what you thought. Both of these videos prove beyond any doubt that what we consider "police brutality" in Greece would not even register in the US. Our normal is way far away from the US's normal. Both of these videos have no brutality by any measure of what is going on in the US and in most cases you see police running away rather than running forward, you see police holding the line while having molotovs thrown at them, the very few instances you see police pushing people, even that is like a child's push with very little falling or hurting themselves(and these are the clips those who made them for the intended purpose could assemble), you see police spraying and pushing people with extreme caution while spraying their legs rather than their faces and in Greece we have instituted yearly parades since 2011 against police brutality, even that we do not consider it tolerable and we do something about it.

2) Was this supposed to address an argument of mine or were you just hoping to shut me up?

3) You think this above is "awful", but you are trying to argue that a lot worse police brutality committed both by the US and Israel is either fine or just collateral damage in the pursuit of law, order and security.

I'm just commenting on how this election campaign is set to look like. This is a disaster.

What Trump supporters do should have no bearing on whether the Americans should fight for everyone to be the same under the law. Why the heck would you think it does?

[Julian658]

Stereotype is a perception and I think everybody has freedom to form some kind of stereotype in their mind.

The problem is, everyone should also have a set of protocol in action, speech, etc. that no stereotype should override.

Stereotypes are based on the group or the ethnicity a person belongs to. This is easily defeated if ALL persons are judged as INDIVIDUALS and not as members of a group. That is why group (race) identity politics is so evil. It causes people to be judged according to a group and not individually.

[Wellsy]

@Wellsy That was a short post?

I could certainly have written a lot more. I typically become reknown for my verbosity as i always have a lot to say and think about.

Side note: every gain we see is based in illiberal struggles in civil society not peaceful and docile requests to governments. It is an i consistency in liberalism which disavows its own origins in such struggles and revolutions.

Because in the ideal sense of liberalism is based in a consensus which can never be truly achieved and so the government is meant to be a neutral observer of the law which don’t impose but the minimal standards. This is why the gains of civil rights and womens lib can’t be seen as inherent to political liberalism as it necessarily challenged the dominant consensus of its day.
https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/rawls.pdf

Whilst the notion of “for the right reasons” is clear enough it should be recognised that the consensus which is freely accepted one day may fail on the next. Since political liberalism aims for consensus for the right reasons, liberalism is non-emancipatory. For example, some African women may freely accept “female circumcision” and it runs counter to the project of liberalism to agitate in order to upset a consensus for the purpose of creating consciousness of an injustice. Such a campaign could only base itself on a “comprehensive doctrine” which declared female circumcision to be inhumane irrespective of the consent of its victims, and would challenge the fact of this practice as a

legitimate traditional ritual integral to the way of life of a people.

By committing itself to the domain of fact and seeking overlapping consensus by excluding counter-factual appeal to comprehensive doctrines, political liberalism does not just tolerate such practices but must actively place itself in opposition to emancipatory projects of this kind. Contrariwise, all emancipatory struggles are illiberal. That is a fact.

[Patrickov]

This is easily defeated if ALL persons are judged as INDIVIDUALS and not as members of a group.

I disagree that it's easy.

For example, I am a Chinese so I often see things from a Chinese perspective (e.g. sense of morality)

Likewise, pro-Beijing people, Trump supporters or anti-Trumpers all have different ways of thinking that others are hard to imitate.

Sometimes it's race, sometimes it's religion, maybe personal wealth, social status, etc. all have a play.

Stereotypes usually originate from statistically true observations and many who think that way have not ever encountered enough exceptions to change their mind. Besides, it is easier for our brains (or in other words, more energy conservative) to simply the thinking process by categorising what's being judged, and grouping is a very effective way.

It can be argued that simplifying matters or thinking process for supporters is a service that many would accept and appreciate.

However, I do agree that many of such simplification is at least problematic, and in many cases stemmed from evil intentions.

[Saeko]

Herp derp rioting and looting never delivers results and just turns ordinary people against you, durr!:

[Beren]

What do you think will the electoral consequences of this be? The longer private citizens who don't have anything to do with the killing of George Floyd are affected by this, the harsher the authoritarian reaction will be. And that means Trump, again - no one will buy Biden going into a law and order mood.

Law and order will be restored shortly and this will affect African-American rather than Caucasian voters and the 2020 Democratic National Convention rather than the November elections. Police brutality and racism still will be issues in November, while law and order won't.

[wat0n]

1) If you have not seen these videos, perhaps you should before you post them and prove the opposite of what you thought. Both of these videos prove beyond any doubt that what we consider "police brutality" in Greece would not even register in the US. Our normal is way far away from the US's normal. Both of these videos have no brutality by any measure of what is going on in the US and in most cases you see police running away rather than running forward, you see police holding the line while having molotovs thrown at them, the very few instances you see police pushing people, even that is like a child's push with noone falling or hurting themselves and with extreme caution and in Greece we have instituted yearly parades since 2011 against police brutality, even that we do not consider it tolerable and we do something about it.

2) Was this supposed to address an argument of mine or were you just hoping to shut me up?

3) You think this above is "awful", but you are trying to argue that a lot worse police brutality committed both by the US and Israel is either fine or just collateral damage in the pursuit of law & order.

Sorry but the only one who seems to be okay with police brutality here would be you, when committed by Greek police at least. I'm not ok with American, Chilean or Israeli police brutality - particularly when it ends with people killed - or other forms of abuse of power, but I'm also not okay with looting, arson, battery and murder, that needs to be stopped no matter how righteous your cause is and unfortunately that needs to be done by using force, even if it's the least force necessary to accomplish this task. I'd rather have the police do it instead of private citizens because the latter will tend to act with more force than necessary if they have the means (i.e. firearms) to do so, as the LA riots in 1992 painfully showed.

Let's continue. Greek police shooting border migrants, maiming and even killing one:

Now a quickie one before getting to work:

Now pretty standard protest stuff:



And here, a report claiming that police brutality is increasing, rather than decreasing, in Greece.

What Trump supporters do should have no bearing on whether the American should fight for everyone to be the same under the law. Why the heck would you think it does?

It doesn't, but it has a bearing on how to fight it. It can be done it by voting Trump out, along with negligent Governors, Majors and Congressmen (this would be step #1 don't you think?) but particularly him, which also happens to be the most democratic way possible for that matter; or it can be attempted to be done by force, a way that will only lead many people who would otherwise stand against police brutality and dislike Trump to go for authoritarian measures to stop byproducts of riots such as looting, arson, battery and/or murder.

It's entirely up to them, but if they prefer the latter they will have to deal with the consequences. I'd respectfully advise the former and actually succeed in doing so, in the same way this succeeded in other demands (e.g. say, for example, the Dear Colleague letter and all related laws passed in several states relating to consent) but hey that's just me.

Blind aggressiveness would destroy the attack itself, not the defense.

@Wellsy I beg to disagree, a great example of a conquest that was reached using the institutions in place would be the racial desegregation of public schools - and this was long before the race riots of the 1960s. Even worse, the use of violence by those who weren't willing to comply with the courts was one of the reasons of why they failed. In that sense, the most obvious and indeed revolting violence of those years was indeed started by the White Supremacists, not the African Americans - and theirs was a reaction to that as well.

Law and order will be restored shortly and this will affect African-American rather than Caucasian voters and the 2020 Democratic National Convention rather than the November elections. Police brutality and racism still will be issues in November, while law and order won't.

That sounds nice in theory, but history would suggest otherwise. Nixon, for example, successfully campaigned on a law and order platform after the DNC riots in Chicago and the MLK riots nationally in 1968 (in Chicago, too, Major Daley took a harsh attitude that actually reminds one of Trump, and not only he was reelected but he died in office in 1974). After the 1992 LA riots, the Democratic Major retired and the election the following year was won by a Republican.

The longer this goes on, the more viable this kind of "be tough" stuff becomes, regardless of whatever isolated cases @Saeko or others may try to present.

But yes, if violence stopped soon then maybe this will be averted. As usual it all depends on how many people are affected, but it doesn't look good for the Democrats. Even worse since it's happening largely if not only in Democrat-led places, the people sending the cops or the National Guardsmen to repress both rioters and even peaceful protesters are part of the party, the people who are being repressed aren't Democrats but if they voted I bet it wouldn't be for Trump. The latter is obviously a problem for Biden since he needs the anti-Trump camp to rally around him and every vote he can get, or he's toast. I truly hope for a Biden win, despite his shortcomings, but I'm pessimistic after this week.

I hope my pessimism is not warranted and that @Saeko for example is right. But history doesn't support this.