African-American Asphyxiated by Police in Minneapolis - Page 35 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Patrickov wrote:I disagree that it's easy.

For example, I am a Chinese so I often see things from a Chinese perspective (e.g. sense of morality)

Likewise, pro-Beijing people, Trump supporters or anti-Trumpers all have different ways of thinking that others are hard to imitate.

Sometimes it's race, sometimes it's religion, maybe personal wealth, social status, etc. all have a play.

Stereotypes usually originate from statistically true observations and many who think that way have not ever encountered enough exceptions to change their mind. Besides, it is easier for our brains (or in other words, more energy conservative) to simply the thinking process by categorising what's being judged, and grouping is a very effective way.

It can be argued that simplifying matters or thinking process for supporters is a service that many would accept and appreciate.

However, I do agree that many of such simplification is at least problematic, and in many cases stemmed from evil intentions.



I don't disagree with your post, but we need a new paradigm to deal with racism.

You say you are Chinese: You likely hold a markedly positive stereotype. If you were a student in an engineering class the other white students would instantly assume you are very smart. Why? Because Asian people have created the positive stereotype of academic achievement. Even rabid NAZIs types like Richard Spencer have admiration for the academic achievement of many Asians.

When Floyd was killed even the most racist in America knew it was WRONG and the cop was at fault. Despite the horrendous outcome the incident was a shock for racist Americans. Then the media shows black people looting for 5 straight days on TV and that same racist American returns to his original position of racism. He will immediately judge black people based on that negative stereotype.

If we were able to leave group membership behind and judge others strictly as individuals we would do much better.
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noemon wrote:The same way you are getting your cues from Trump and have become more racist @blackjack21, the same way police officers are getting their cues from you along with all your white supremacist buddies regardless if you live in Democrat controlled states. You think you have an "argument" but that too is ridiculous. Racism becoming more prominent and being normalised by the head of the state trickles down everywhere and being under a Democrat governor does not create a veil of magical immunity. The fish rots from the head.

I don't get my cues from Trump, nor have I become "more racist." My giving up on egalitarianism was finalized with Obergefell, but I held that opinion much earlier, long before Trump came into office. It's also not an embrace of race-based class systems, etc. It's a rejection of absolute egalitarianism.

In a democracy, there is no "fish rots from the head" sort of thing. Elected representatives represent the majority of thinking across these jurisdictions. Obama was president when Eric Garner died. Were you blaming Obama at that point? No. You are logically inconsistent. Your consistency is in opposition to Republicans and in favor of Democrats. It's pretty transparent, but it's not obvious as to why you are so dedicated to the welfare state establishment. As for police power in Minnesota, the head there is the governor of Minnesota, not the POTUS. There is no federal general police power, and US states are not subdivisions of the federal government. They are sovereign states (i.e., their own countries) that have delegated certain powers to the US government (e.g., coining money, regulating its value, weights and measures, national defense, diplomacy, adjudicating conflicts between states within the federation, intellectual property rights, etc.). Chauvin will be charged under Minnesota law, not the US Code unless they find a civil rights violation.

Donna wrote:This is what I mean by radicalization. 5 years ago right-wingers would never try to rationalize and excuse hate massacres like Christchurch with Lou Dobbs talking points about outsourcing and immigration, but here we are.

That was in New Zealand, and the shooter was apparently radicalized in Europe, and made donations to identitarian groups in Austria and France. You guys are grasping at straws to blame New Zealand shootings on Trump too. In that case, it was an anti-Muslim attack, not a race-based attack. Islam is a religion, not a race.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Are you suggesting that Mr, Floyd just happened to die of heart problems while a cop knelt on his neck, choking him for over five minutes?

That's what the Democrat party machine in Minnesota would have you believe. It seems that Floyd had a stress response that triggered an asthma attack followed by cardiac arrest.

Pants-of-dog wrote:And it had nothing to do with the officer choking him for over five minutes?

He had a knee on his neck. So it was probably due to constrained circulation rather than restricted airflow. Stress can induce asthma attacks, which is a big problem when it is comorbid with coronary artery disease, etc.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Mr, Floyd was already handcuffed and on the ground when the cop knelt on his neck for several minutes, choking him.

To choke him, Chauvin would have to be pressing the trachea against the esophagus such that epiglottis blocks airflow. That's likely not the case here. It's more likely that the stress of the situation induced an asthma attack, which cascaded into myocardial infarction followed by cardiac arrest. It's important to get the facts right if you don't want the cop to get away with it. Jumping to hasty conclusions is always a bad idea in legal cases.

Wulfschilde wrote:That escalated quickly; black Democrats are already trying to drive a wedge between AntiFA and BLM.

They should be trying to distance from Antifa. Antifa is going around setting shit on fire, looting, etc.

Donna wrote:lol the Trump administration is going to blame communists for the riots.

If the shoe fits...

Pants-of-dog wrote:He said the the structural racism inherent in the system was never addessed.

And we also now have the problem of people who pretend that racism is over.

Institutional racism is largely over. Racism will always be around though. It's part of nature, it's not just ideology.

Tainari88 wrote:@blackjack21 I am not going to paste five to ten refutes to your Charles Murray Bell Curve theories. Scientific American analyzed the problem with Murray's book. Here it is. Notice the final few paragraphs. That is why Murray's ideas about the book are racist BJ. You find it as a great piece of data due to it concluding that the data is based on genetic differences that are written in stone. If you study the genes of all groups on Earth? Variation is the norm. In all races. I explained it thoroughly already. The reality that IQ can change in the same indvidual according to environment, tutoring, better diet, tools, and what MacLeod calls--cultural capital escapes you completely. Why? As Al Gore says? It is an inconvenient truth.

The Flynn Effect is well understood. So is IQ variation within a race, even within the same family. Murray was saying that there is a central tendency that shows that there remains an IQ difference between racial groups (that is, individuals within the group, not the entire group) even when controlling for socio-economic factors.

Tainari88 wrote:You either deal with the class problem in the USA properly or you have to admit you don't go for equality. Which BJ you already admitted you have done.

Yes, but you view everything through an ideological lens, not a pragmatic empirical lens. So even though I explain myself every single time, you still come back with some sort of white supremacy argument. Even Charles Murray has to rebut that pointing out the text in the Bell Curve is showing Asians having better math skills on average is not a cogent argument for white supremacy.

Tainari88 wrote:You don't believe in equality.

There is a major difference between equality before the law (uniform application), and equality in all things (tall people equal to short people, strong men equal to waifs, etc.). Even equality before the law is a rather tenuous prospect in that it is much more an ideal than a practice, as the arrest and death of Floyd shows. In many respects, I'm saying "let's stop pretending."

Tainari88 wrote:I am coming from slum dwellers BJ. Are my achievements a fluke? No. They have to do with choices and environment.

Indeed they do. If you read the Bell Curve, you will see that Murray and Herrnstein said precisely that. The Bell Curve was not a refutation of the Flynn Effect. Far from it. This is much the same story of the Irish in America, and why they wholesale reject the notion of "white privilege."

Tainari88 wrote:Why don't you back all the kids learning it?

Here you go again as though I've somewhere said that I oppose children learning a second or third language. I've never said any such thing.

Tainari88 wrote: It is inconvenient because he is a conservative politically.

Actually, he's libertarian.

Tainari88 wrote:Read the entire article BJ.

The author is like you. He interpolates meanings that aren't in the text.
“The Bell Curve” endorses prejudice by virtue of what it does not say.

That's crap. It's a demand that everybody must embrace political correctness or justify a charge of racism, something like what @noemon is doing.

I myself work in the big data area

So have I. That's why I find it interesting when it turns out that AI develops racism and sexism unless it is taught away with human intervention. AI has no agency, no soul, etc. Yet, given raw data inputs just as your sensory perception serves as input to your brain, AI picks up on race and gender differences straight away. This is why socialism is not scientific, as it eschews empiricism that doesn't arrive at the ordained conclusions of socialism.

In the final chapter (Chapter 22), when it finally delivers a few much-anticipated policy prescriptions, they don't relate to race in any explicit way (and how could they?).

That's because the book isn't about race, and never was.

With a certain eerie silence on the matter, "The Bell Curve" spurs readers to prejudge by race.

No, it doesn't do any such thing. It says that there is a cognitive elite, and that killing of education of trades and pushing everyone into college programs when some people are ill-equipped for it is a terrible thing to do. It has led to precisely the problem we have now--people with worthless degrees, saddled with debt and no job prospects, because nobody is going to hire you for "Women's studies", etc. As the meme goes, learn to code. Some people just aren't equipped for that.

Tainari88 wrote:The reality that IQ continues to change and improve from one generation to another has implications BJ. It means that something in the environment is improving the scores. Why? It is not genes being static at all.

Testers that live in urban environments also tend to score higher than people in rural environments. That doesn't mean that hicks are dumb as a rule either, but that sort of bigotry exists on the left with no pushback from the leftists here.

Tainari88 wrote:You better start realizing that the theories about what variation means in human genetics are not simplistic and never have been.

I've never intimated as much. The human genome has 25M+ genes and 3 billion base pairs. We only understand a fraction of it. I understand its complexity intrinsically.

Tainari88 wrote:Refute Nesbitt who analyzed your Charles Murray's data and conclusions @blackjack21.

Why not open a separate thread? Let's not hijack the Floyd discussion, as it has nothing to do with IQ. Floyd was arrested for uttering counterfeit currency--a federal felony--apparently resisted arrest, was subject to unnecessary distraint after he was in custody and lost his life as the apparent result. That doesn't appear to have anything to do with IQ.

Tainari88 wrote:It is a way of racists to justify the racial/cultural divide in the USA--it says that Blacks and Hispanics are the lower class because they don't have the intelligence points in IQ to make good STEM students.

You have quite a few conclusions here. There are racial and cultural divides all over the world. I remember not so long ago when Europeans would lecture Americans about racism. They will denounce racism now, but they do not have a moral high ground after decades of mass migration. There is a stabbing epidemic in London--mostly among minorities. There are regular race riots in France. There are huge divides in countries like Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan too. Look at the broader world and see how those stats stack up. I did that once, and found the difference in sexually transmitted disease rates by race (Asian, White, Hispanic, Black) had nearly the same deviations as for IQ. That was true around the world too. Egalitarians, even when faced with the data, do not want to accept it. That is the power of ideology.

Tainari88 wrote:Most Puerto Rican PhD's are one or two generations removed from illiterates and people who could not read or write. If genes were the major factor shouldn't they still be not achieving a damn thing Blackjack21.

Give me the phone numbers I will send the recommendations for a bonus for your lack of diversity in the hard and genius field of coders.

Hang on to that thought. Regrettably, we are in a hiring freeze now due to the covid economy.

Unthinking Majority wrote:Because they were committing crimes. Crime rates in the US dropped significantly in the latter half of the 90's after the bill come into effect. This is the dumbest argument ever. Do you support keeping criminals free in communities so they can destroy the lives of innocent people? If you want to stay out of prison, stop committing crimes. WTF is racist about that policy? The victims of black criminals are overwhelmingly other black people.

That's true. However, the justice system is supposed to be blind. I know a number of police officers, lawyers, etc. Two of my first cousins are attorneys. They know when they catch a bad guy, because the crime rate goes down. There are scofflaws, and then there are serial criminals. Yet, that's not how the justice system works. You can only charge someone with the instant crime. Liberals got too soft on sentencing, and so lawmakers like Biden pushed for three-strikes laws and mandatory minimum sentencing. The three strikes type stuff worked to get the serial offenders off the streets. The mandatory minimums for non-violent drug offenders turned out to be an institutional cruelty that countered excessively lenient liberal judges.

noemon wrote:Are you seriously pretending to argue with a straight face that Trump's election has resulted to less racism in American society?

Trump's election resulted in the First Step Act, which overwhelmingly benefits black prisoners getting released early, because of the cruel mandatory minimum sentencing laws passed during the Clinton administration (recalling Biden voting for it and Hillary talking about "super predator" black people). Democratic actions overwhelmingly hurt blacks. Trump took up that initiative while in office, because Kanye West and Kim Kardashian brought the issue up at the White House. Trump worked with Senator Tim Scott of South Carolina (he's black) to arrive at remedial legislation that overwhelmingly helped blacks. So in actual fact, and as a matter of law, Trump has helped reduce racism in American society, while Obama decided not to address the issue for reasons that remain unclear.

noemon wrote:You have a racist pig strangulating a Black man in broad daylight, you then have a racist coroner making an obviously fake report than the victim died of underlying causes and not of "asphyxia", you then have a racist prosecutor refusing to prosecute for days and only doing so belatedly after the city got burned, then you have racist police arresting a Black man for reporting the news.

Yeah, and they're all Democrats, and you invariably fail to point that out while attacking the POTUS.

noemon wrote:You are excusing racism, you are just too scared to proceed with the logical conclusions of your argumentation with me and that is why you leave it at empty generic platitudes.

You seem to excuse racists if they are Democrats. Why do you not criticize Amy Klobuchar rather than Donald Trump? Amy Klobuchar actually had the opportunity to prosecute Officer Derek Chauvin, and chose not too. Yet, you are seriously trying to assert that somehow Chauvin did what he did, because he was under the influence of Donald Trump's over-the-top tweets or something. :roll:

Unthinking Majority wrote:How am I "diffusing responsibility for what happened"? From whatever evidence we've seen so far the cop is 100% at fault for murdering Floyd and should be held criminally accountable, and i've never said anything to the contrary.

You're not blaming it on Trump, which is what I think they want you to do.

Drlee wrote:If I was the mayor and had the authority I would fire this chief of police today.

Ahh, but identity politics is what dominates the Democratic party. The Chief of Police is black. If you did something like fire the black police chief and hire a white one that addressed institutional problems, you would still be called a racist even if it led to less apparent racism. That is the nature of identitarian politics.

Drlee wrote:The officer who now faces third degree murder charges and who knows what federal charges, it appears, has had many complaints about this stuff in the past.

Indeed. Amy Klobuchar had the opportunity to prosecute Officer Chauvin and passed up on the opportunity.

Unthinking Majority wrote:The 3 officers watching the man die are also guilty.

Yeah, they should prosecute misprision against government officers to reduce tolerance for corruption, oppression, etc.

JohnRawls wrote:How do you implement it US wide?

You can't. Each state is sovereign and has its own criminal laws and criminal procedure.

SpecialOlympian wrote:District Attorneys are unwilling to prosecute police because they work closely with them.

Amy Klobuchar, cough cough.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Because right now we are discussing racist police brutality.

Yes, but the OP doesn't discuss race and your initial racial salvo is that this instance is racist, because law enforcement disproportionately affects blacks, and the police get away with criminal behavior. In the instant case, apparently Floyd was trying to purchase cigarettes with a counterfeit $20 bill. So it's more than likely someone reported him to authorities. Uttering counterfeit bills is a felony punishable by up to 20 years in prison. The police were within their power to make a felony arrest; however, that does not excuse their behavior when they had him in custody. It also doesn't establish whether Officer Chauvin held hateful racist thoughts in his head while putting his knee to Floyd's neck.

ness31 wrote:Nup. In my opinion and I might be wrong, but in my opinion there was a racist element there. It was racist in the same way biometrics cannot distinguish black perps.

All that for a 20 dollar fake bill. Jesus wept.

Yeah, but that's pure inference. It's not based on anything evidentiary in nature. This is the type of thing where if you try to prosecute it as racist, you end up losing the case. Work with the known facts and leave the rest of it out and you get a clean conviction on the facts.

By the way, counterfeiting money is a felony punishable by up to 20 years in prison.

Wulfschilde wrote:I still think that being a cop is more dangerous than most jobs (one website I looked up listed it as the 6th most dangerous job).

A grade school friend of mine lost his 26-year old daughter last year. She was a field training officer responding to a domestic violence call and was shot and killed with a high-powered rifle. It's definitely dangerous work.

SpecialOlympian wrote:For those not in the know, the Hawaiian shirts are a low key signal to other white nationalists.

So it's not white polos anymore? You sure know a lot about the fashion statements of white nationalists.

SpecialOlympian wrote:Also lol eat shit Daughters of the Losers of the Civil War:

Because that has what to do with Floyd's death? Derek Chauvin sounds French. Not exactly part of the confederacy.

Wat0n wrote:This is like a blessing for Trump, hence the incendiary tweet at the beginning and his virtual silence now. He's been trying to incite protests against Democrats since March (over the lockdowns) and now he's getting something that's a lot better and plays to White identity politics.

They establishment doesn't realize this at all. Maybe they ginned up the riots to get people's minds off of the lockdowns, because they were getting challenged and establishment wants to get people on their side to "restore order." Either way, it does illustrate Democrats and Democrat problems.

Saeko wrote:But instead, Americans all over the internet are cheering the cops on whenever they perpetrate some new brutality against their fellow Americans.

Who is cheering them on? Almost everyone has said Chavin performed the mother of all dick moves.

Politics_Observer wrote:That's contributing to the problem and making things worse today and was probably one of several factors that led to the riots we are seeing currently in the news.

I think everyone understands angry but peaceful protests over what Chauvin did. When they start seeing white Antifa types setting buildings on fire and walking out of liquor stores with cases of Seagrams, then the sympathy melts away with remarkable speed.

The Sabbaticus wrote:Now the effete and ineffectual government of Minnesota is blaming out-of-state 'white supremacists' for instigating the violence and unrest. You can't make this up.

They're showing out for Antifa to hide the fact that the riots were staged.

The Sabbaticus wrote:They simply can't bear to blame themselves for their own incompetence and figured that 'white supremacists' would be a better fall guy than antifa scum for their TDS-afflicted Democratic base. :')

Yeah, well they have to get passed asking Amy Klobuchar why she chose not to prosecute Chauvin; otherwise, Biden is going to have to pick a black woman as his VP, rendering the establishment's plan to use him as a puppet completely moot.

Wat0n wrote:The fact that this is happening in largely (if not exclusively) Democrat-led cities is exactly what Trump wanted.

Well, I think the establishment is afraid of being overthrown by their unconstitutional lockdown orders, and so they are looking for a way to get the so called "silent majority" back on their side.

Godstud wrote:False. Until the riots, Chauvin was not even up on charges.

Derek Chauvin, 44, was arrested late Friday morning and charged with third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter four days after he pinned his knee on Floyd’s neck for nearly nine minutes Monday at the intersection of E. 38th Street and Chicago Avenue as the unarmed and handcuffed man told him he couldn’t breathe.

It's a capital crime. It takes awhile to impanel a grand jury and hear evidence.

Godstud wrote:That's fucking bullshit that it's not as easy to get a not guilty verdict. it happens all the time with cops, even when video evidence is damning.

That's been the case for a long time. They even had video evidence with the Rodney King beating. Charge Chauvin with what is indisputable--manslaughter. If you want to hang him and go for first degree murder, you lose the case because the evidence doesn't match your emotional outrage. Even third degree murder is much harder to prove.

SpecialOlympian wrote:Meanwhile, the fat moron in clown makeup who was supposed to Make America White Again spent his day watching a rocket launch and hiding while protesters have put the Secret Service on high alert.

They're throwing water bottles at the Secret Service... ergo, staged.

SpecialOlympian wrote:We now have multiple videos recorded over multipole nights where protesters clash with Secret Servicemen with the White House visible in the background.

The B-roll isn't going to do you any good.

Unthinking Majority wrote: One parent homes among white Americans has also increased significantly since the 60's.

Indeed. Charles Murray wrote "Coming Apart" to restate the case of the Bell Curve, but exclusively with a white population to sidestep the pointless debates about race and focus squarely on the cognitive elite and their conservative personal mores while extolling libertinism for everyone else.

Wat0n wrote:Right, because as the prosecutors themselves said, they wanted to gather all the evidence (and yes, the first video isn't the only evidence they have. There's a second video showing the homicide from a different angle with two more cops pinning him down, which makes it even harder for Chauvin to provide a defense - the maneuver, even if he had performed it differently, was likely unnecessary anyway. There's also the possibility that they knew each other since they worked together as bouncers in the same shift at some point, if so this might actually lead to second or first degree murder charges - again, information that we've been able to learn after the protests began).

And they wanted to do that to get a better case, as they should. It's their job, I'd rather have them take a few days to indict and get him in jail than botch a trial.

Interesting information. It would still be hard to press more significant charges, unless they can get some background witnesses that can attest to a conflict between the two men. Our resident lynch mob doesn't seem to appreciate that one way police officers walk is that people charge crimes they cannot substantiate and don't charge crimes they can substantiate all because they want to impose greater punishment.

noemon wrote:The US Justice system is allergic to prosecuting police committing murders against Black people. Are you seriously trying to deny this reality?

I don't deny it. I just point out that it's mainly urban Democrats. That's why it's not going to change. Do you think for a second black people are going to stop voting for Democrats in local elections? Do you think for a second black people are going to form their own party and the Washington establishment won't come down on them?

noemon wrote:Violence is the only way to bring change in the American society and as Saeko already said, they should take their cues from the pro-Trump anti-lockdown protestors who showed up armed to the teeth downtown.

Right. That's why they've staged these riots--to get those anti-lockdown protesters on the side of law enforcement on the assumption that they're all racists. All Monday and Tuesday, the media was lamenting people not social distancing during the Memorial Day weekend. Now, not a peep.

noemon wrote:As previously pointed out, right-wingers keep making the point that holding guns is their constitutional right to protect themselves from an unjust government. As such, people have a constitutional right to start shooting until Justice is served and the system changes to accommodate Justice for Black people.

Right.

SpecialOlympian wrote:Like a TV show that doesn't know how to write a convincing ending; there is never an endpoint where the body politic is finally pure.




SpecialOlympian wrote:The protests started organically. The Minneapolis PD incited riots because that is what the police do; they send in agent provacateurs to justify using force against the protesters.

Antifa is the much likelier agent provacateur. Although, it must be said that the MPD was mysteriously absent during much of these riots.

SpecialOlympian wrote:The governor of the state has confirmed that white nationalists are, at the least, talking about driving to Minneapolis to create more chaos to finally bring about the boogaloo.

That's just so funny. Boogaloo. When did white nationalists become so funny? Are they related to the Juggalos or something? Woot woot!
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noemon wrote:Why the fuck would I use my authority to implement a rule that does not exist just to create a safe-space for racists whose racism is responsible for the deaths of these people?

Uh... you banned "black murder porn" arbitrarily when there was no such rule. In fact, the OP by SpecialOlympian's definition is in fact "black murder porn." Sometimes the cops get it right, and have to shoot somebody--like when someone is charging them with a machete. In the instant case, the cops definitely got it wrong. Frankly, police body cameras is one of the initiatives Obama got right. My cop buddy complains about them too, not because of wrong doing per se, but they can't say, "Man that dude is crazy" or anything like that anymore. They have to be straight professional for a full shift.

Wat0n wrote:You do realize that they are usually let off by juries right? Prosecutors do their jobs, press charges and during the trials the jurors let them off. This has been changing recently but that's how the cops would get away with homicide.

Yes, but it's also because of over-charging. That's how Rodney King's perps got away (except for federal charges), because the prosecution put an enhancement "with a deadly weapon," where the weapon was a baton but the legislative intent was a police revolver. They didn't shoot Rodney King in the legs. They just beat the living shit out of him. So the proper charge was "Excessive use of force with the intent to do great bodily injury" and not "Excessive use of force with the intent to do great bodily injury with a deadly weapon."

So this isn't straight up jury nullification.

SpecialOlympian wrote:The man who killed Trayvon Martin, who was suspciously black in a gated community, was let off by a Grand Jury.

Trayvon Martin evidently attacked George Zimmerman. Zimmerman did face trial. He was found not guilty by a trial jury, not a grand jury.

SpecialOlympian wrote:In the case of Trayvon Martin, his murderer wasn't even allowed to be brought before a court for criminal prosecution. And this was done on purpose by the District Attorney, becuase black lives are deemed to be less valid by our racist judicial system.

This happened only in your imagination. Trial of George Zimmerman.

SpecialOlympian wrote:I wonder how many Blackjack owns?

None.

wat0n wrote:But I can get your point. That did happen in the Eric Garner case - you know, the African American who died by asphyxiation in NYC, the original "I can't breathe" that helped to get BLM running too - although my point remains that this was ultimately a jury decision (one, by the way, we have no idea how was reached - I think NY keeps those sealed by law, and for some reason FOIA doesn't apply).

Garner was laying flat and didn't have a knee down on him. Although, he complained that he couldn't breath after a chokehold. So it was likely a similar stress response triggering an asthma attack and cardiac arrest. The police routinely face malingering, but they do need to take health complaints seriously while maintaining their own safety. Generally, they don't.

SpecialOlypian wrote:Just imagine how dissapointed the average PoFo Trump supporter must be if they voted for him for the racism and now they're watching black people burn down police stations lmfao.

That's the thing with you... sometimes you don't seem to know the difference between reality and what you imagine. I supported Trump and I think it's amusing that the protesters burned down a police precinct, in a Democrat run city, Democrat run county and Democrat run state.

Godstud wrote:All responsibility SHOULD be laid on him, since he's the fucking LEADER.

Trump is the POTUS. He has not police power in Minnesota. That belongs to the governor, the county sheriff and the local government of Minneapolis. The POTUS is not a Fuhrer.

Godstud wrote:Anywhere else and it's all the leader's fault.

I can't speak for Thailand, but when someone commits a crime in most places, it's the person who commits the crime that gets punished; not someone with 4-5 layers of indirection and over a thousand miles away that had nothing to do with it.

Godstud wrote:@SpecialOlympian If only they'd let him build that wall. This wouldn't be an issue. :lol:

He is building a wall, and the case has nothing to do with illegal immigration. Why do you think that's funny?

Godstud wrote:If Obama was President still, everyone would be blaming things on his actions, and rightly so.

Nobody blamed Eric Garner's death on Obama. Bill de Blasio called it a "terrible tragedy". Yet, it was his administration that was trying to crack down on the illicit trade in untaxed cigarettes--ironically, Floyd was also purchasing cigarettes albeit with a counterfeit $20 bill not by seeking to evade the stamp tax on cigarettes.

noemon wrote:Responsibility should be laid on him for the things that he is responsible of, like stoking racism to rally his base.

At no point has Trump been attacking black people. On the contrary, he maintains personal friendships with quite a few notable black Americans.

Godstud wrote:Leaders have to take responsibility for actions that are sometimes not exactly their fault. since they are in charge.

Trump cannot exercise police power in Minnesota. The top of that food chain is the governor of Minnesota.

Godstud wrote:@Drlee gave a good example of this in this thread, or another, about how the Sergeant is responsible for the actions of the people beneath him.

Right, and in this case, even @drlee rose above the sergeant, lieutenant and captain of the watch and suggested firing the chief of police.

wat0n wrote: What it will bring is a demand for harsher, authoritarian measures, and indeed that already began.

Which is why I say it is probably due to their fear that their lockdown orders are being disregarded and people are ready to challenge the government's edicts.

Drlee wrote:Every police department of any size has an office called "internal affairs". This office is designed to investigate allegations against the police by citizens or even other policemen. I would abolish the office entirely. I would have a city office of "police affairs" that answers to the mayor/city manager, city council to investigate all allegations against the police.

I would make it state-wide, or at least have multiple ways that investigations can commence. City pols can be complicit too. This is why I keep throwing Amy Klobuchar's name into the mix. She among noteworty elected pols actually had some connection to Officer Chauvin, and nobody wants to hold Democrats to account while grasping at straws to find some way to blame Chauvin's actions on Trump.

Drlee wrote:Why does SLC have assault vehicles? I would start by taking that away from the police.

MRAPs are military vehicles. Who gave them military vehicles? The Obama administration. I doubt anyone of note will hold the Obama administration accountable for that act, but many on the right were complaining about it when it happened.

Drlee wrote:For the second amendment types. Is this kind of tyranny the founders were talking about?

Yes.

Saeko wrote:The police are innocent, pure, baby puppy, butterfly cuddlykins! They would never attack an innocent civilian unprovoked, derp!

Democrat run city, Democrat run county. Democrat run state. Just saying...

Atlantis wrote:This is utterly shocking.

Trump's Gestapo storm-troopers terrorizing Americans with impunity.

There is no federal general police power. The president has no control of police officers in major cities AT ALL. Even DC is a creature controlled by Congress, not the POTUS. The first police force in your video is NYPD. That's Bill de Blasio at the mayoral level and Andrew Cuomo at the governors office. It's Democrat through and through.

Godstud wrote:It doesn't take 4 days to charge someone with murder, when you have video evidence.

Murder is a capital offense. It takes time to draw up a complaint. You don't do something like that hastily.

Zionist Nationalist wrote:If they were burning police stations and politician houses instead of burning down properties of people that have nothing to do with that most people would support them including me. all they achieved is to divide the people even more than before and inflame the hate

That's antifa doing things totally unrelated to a protest against Floyd's death, and it is is organized by political factions. The intent is to get people behind the authority of the state again.

Wulfschilde wrote:As for George Floyd, I've been genuinely disturbed by the whole thing. But the reality is that there's a lot of violent criminals who need to get their necks held down by people's knees and you can't tell who is who until after the fact.

Sometimes, to effect an arrest you have to do that, but once they're in cuffs, it's largely unnecessary. That's why it's such a stark issue in the Floyd case. Chauvin holding a knee down on Floyd's neck while he was in cuffs was clearly unnecessary.

Wulfschilde wrote:The guy only died because of a heart condition and likely intoxicants.

If he swallowed a bag of meth and his heart exploded, that would be another matter. However, we don't have evidence of that at this point.
#15095961
wat0n wrote:Sure, and there are also practical, even tactical arguments against it such as those above. Police brutality is not new and neither is the grievance around it, even if it will still inevitably happen at some point even if nobody likes it. A riot, however, is unlikely to be able to solve it for good just like it didn't in 1992, for example. Not on its own for sure, and it might even be counterproductive.


Your criticism here isn't very practical though. I'm not sure who it is supposed to be directed to. At a certain point you must acknowledge that rioting is a diverse phenomenon and not a conscious strategy on the part of anyone.
#15095962
@blackjack21 wrote: That was in New Zealand, and the shooter was apparently radicalized in Europe, and made donations to identitarian groups in Austria and France. You guys are grasping at straws to blame New Zealand shootings on Trump too. In that case, it was an anti-Muslim attack, not a race-based attack. Islam is a religion, not a race.


And he was a regular on /pol/, an American site with a mostly American neo-Nazi community.

I'm the one grasping at straws? You're the one who in the same paragraph is trying to argue that a terrorist who made donations to identitarian groups in Europe isn't a racist. :lol: Unbelievable dishonesty.
#15095964
wat0n wrote:What makes you believe the rioters haven't been into the life taking business?


Your own link says that there is no evidence that this shooting was due to the protesters, and the police chief actually warned against jumping to such a conclusion.

Even the cops that managed to get away with homicide were arrested and charged, no rioting involved. And I think it's not as easy to get a not guilty verdict as it used to be, and it will become harder still.


Which cops are these?

wat0n wrote:How many African Americans have been killed by police in Minneapolis? At least since 2013, around 4. One was unarmed, and we don't know the precise circumstances in that case.

Police killings in that particular city are fairly unusual so maybe that's why they don't usually charge any police officers for them. Have you or @Pants-of-dog ever thought about that possibility?


There seems to be one about every two years.

And the only time a police officer was charged was when the officer was black and the victim was white.

So it is not that unusual. The only unusual thing in this case is that the police officer is being charged.

wat0n wrote:You do realize that they are usually let off by juries right? Prosecutors do their jobs, press charges and during the trials the jurors let them off. This has been changing recently but that's how the cops would get away with homicide.


Not really. Often the DA, who works with cops every single day, decides “there is not enough evidence to prosecute” and the case is entirely dropped.

——————————

Code Rood wrote:The progression of how white supremacists came to be blamed for this is simple if you understand the tortured logic of American political discourse. Blacks started rioting. Jewish and self loathing white anarchists joined in. Then media, liberals and certain conservatives call the anarchists Nazis. It's completely retarded and pathetic.


You completely forgot the murdering police officer who knelt on the neck of the unarmed and handcuffed black man for several minutes, killing him.
#15095965
wat0n wrote:@noemon: Just like I said I don't like American police brutality and you didn't believe me, I don't believe you either. Quid pro quo is a thing, and I can tell you didn't like it - but hey if you try to moralize using present-day Greece as a template you have to expect some scrutiny of your idea.


But Greece(Greeks) is indeed a template of how to deal with police brutality. I am not just saying it cause I'm a Greek nationalist even if I am that too. I said it because it's true. In Greece we do not take kindly on police brutality and we have instituted a yearly parade in the memory of a single dead victim by police brutality. When they killed the kid, Greeks were burning Athens for months and that despite the fact that justice was swift. That is the truth mate. Not sure why the truth has bothered you so much.
#15095966
Yeah, but that's pure inference. It's not based on anything evidentiary in nature. This is the type of thing where if you try to prosecute it as racist, you end up losing the case. Work with the known facts and leave the rest of it out and you get a clean conviction on the facts.


Firstly, I’m fairly sure it’s been established that biometrics “software” fails dismally when it comes to black people. I can only speculate as to why. Maybe ask the Silicon Valley of Death, whats up?

So in 2020, black people are still battling systemic racism, but now it’s in the context of a global technological shit fight and a whole lot more complex.

By the way, counterfeiting money is a felony punishable by up to 20 years in prison.


*sigh* But that’s not what we’re dealing with here, are we? Who’s to say he wasn’t given that fake 20 in change?
#15095970
ness31 wrote:Firstly, I’m fairly sure it’s been established that biometrics “software” fails dismally when it comes to black people. I can only speculate as to why. Maybe ask the Silicon Valley of Death, whats up?

I'm interested to hear what you mean on bio-metrics. Can you share an article?

ness31 wrote:*sigh* But that’s not what we’re dealing with here, are we? Who’s to say he wasn’t given that fake 20 in change?

The grim reality is that it does give the police the defense of a felony arrest; although, I still don't think that justifies the knee to the neck while Floyd was already in cuffs. Did Floyd manufacture the bill himself? I have no idea. He probably knew it was fake when he tried to pawn it off on someone. Personally, I see that as evidence of how badly the government has fucked over working class people with this lockdown.

That said, it is a felony. My cop buddy's kid came into possession of a counterfeit bill a few years ago and his wife inquired if it was still good, and the whole family got quite the lecture from "the cop" as his wife calls him when she's annoyed with him.
#15095972
wat0n wrote:It's a bit of both actually. I'm aware of why it happened (it was a Cold War imperative, as Eisenhower himself made clear when addressing the country on why he sent the military to enforce the court rulings in Little Rock in 1957), but then again it didn't happen from a process coming from within - although, too, the Jim Crow system in general was not particularly liked in the North. Not all changes are obtained through violence, particularly gradual ones like the very Civil Rights Movement (this is starting, too, from the idea that peaceful protest is part of a liberal democratic system).

Oh so my impresion is you’re perhaps concerned that I think only violence is the means to such change. When I say illiberal I still think peaceful protests can still be categorized as such as they challenge as status quo and aren’t successful if they stay within the boundaries of what is accepted by the status quo. Civil disobedience and such still was against segregation.

But i think the escalation to violence can often come after the failure of peaceful means although violence versus pacifist doesn’t synonymously equate with organized kr spontaneous either. Some violence is an out burst which isn’t from its origins with a clear aim. And i think it is the spirit of the people and how they set themselves to the task that is pivotal, the means violent or otherwise are adaptable to the situation and ends one aims at.

Side note:
#15095974
Julian658 wrote:I agree.

But, why do they always have to loot and destroy the neighborhood?


The police terrorising civilians are not going after these imaginary looters and arsonists.

In the many videos displaying the ongoing police brutality, police are attacking protesters, medical staff, old people standing on the sidewalk, people standing on their porches, and other peaceful civilians.
#15095975
@blackjack21
That's antifa doing things totally unrelated to a protest against Floyd's death, and it is is organized by political factions. The intent is to get people behind the authority of the state again.


antifa and BLM are two sides of the same coin
one group manipulates SJW kids into joining them and doing dirty job for soros and his buddies (they are too stupid to realize that they are being used)
the other group manipulates black folks but they are an easy target because they are not too bright either
#15095983
I'm interested to hear what you mean on bio-metrics. Can you share an article?


I’m sure I can. But even when I do, it won’t help much because there isn’t an honest discussion being had, surrounding the extent to which tech is being used in the police force :hmm:


This is just the first article I came across. I’m sure there are journals if we cared to look..
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... ple-police
#15095984
Zionist Nationalist wrote:If you think Trump attacked Black people provide a quote than
I can quote Democrats including our senile Joe laughing and disrespecting Blacks


"when the looting starts, the shooting starts"? You think Trump quoted that without knowing the historical context? A prime example for racist dog-whistling.
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