blackjack21 wrote:Trump has focused on two things: outsourcing to China and illegal immigrants from Mexico and Central America driving wages down. It has widespread appeal among the working classes for very obvious reasons--even among black workers. It is also not something without a foundation in fact. He's not just making shit up out of thin air. Nobody would believe it if that were the case, and he never would have won. Trump won because, as Ann Coulter put it, he was the only one willing to bend over and pick up a $1000 bill.
No. Trump has not focussed on anything. The guy has haphazardly taken advantage of a few core items of republicans agenda and through populism put them forth on steroids to energize a small but loud portion of this country which runs on hate, racism, envy. This in turn held hostage the rest of the more "reasonable" wing of the party and team politics handed him a narrow electoral victory. He still lost by a significant margin the popular vote which helps shine light into the fact that his idiocy does not represent the majority of the country. Furthermore, under his leadership, the party has consistently and progressively lost more and more elections since then. The house, governorships and there is a decent chance the presidency and a tiny but real chance even the senate. The unrest going on right now is not good news for him.
What do you think protests is going to be doing to the already in life support economy. What do you think its gonna happen when the cities and local governments already in dire economical needs due to the shit economy, low taxes and high costs of the last few months start needing more money and the senate starts playing hardball with them again?
Again and again, he has opportunities to mitigate damage early on... and again and again, he fails, lets problems balloon out of proportion and they inevitably come back to haunt him. It has happened with everything from the firing of Comey, to the Ukrainian probe, to COVID and now we are seeing this happen. What happens if this goes for months? what happens if cities cannot pay police and police either stop going or actually join protests?
The protesters are CITIZENS, they are VOTERS. Officials are not elected to control voters, they are elected to protect and serve the voters. Those that fail to understand this, chances are might not last long as politicians.
I'm not making excuses for Chauvin's behavior. I'm saying you have to charge it correctly and prosecute it correctly to get a conviction. I don't know shit about Minnesota law, but in California you get one bite at the apple. That's why Rodney King's perpetrators beat the state charges, even though they were eventually convicted on civil rights charges. Don't kid yourself. The establishment will try to work you into a dither to get this guy off on the charges if they aren't charged correctly or prosecuted correctly.
Then please, stop making references to causes of death and/or any potential reason for his arrest. If they are not going to change the fact that this was an avoidable brutal event, there is no need to try to paint the guy as a sickly criminal. As far as we are concerned he is the victim here, and the only crime we actually have a proof for, is the crime of murder/manslaughter or whatever this is legally speaking.
I don't disagree with you. I'm saying you have the Democrat urban establishment to contend with, and it's not going to change because they will blame this on Trump for political reasons knowing full well that Trump had virtually nothing to do with it.
Blaming people for political reasons is neither new nor unwarranted. Trump is not directly responsible for this guy's death but he is responsible for setting the tone for the nation.
Why is it than rather than focus heavily in de-escalating the situation he is haphazardly tweeting threats? How can you reconcile this with a reality of a leader of a heavily divided country rather than trying to be reconciliatory he just starts tweeting rants and threats. Why is it that this is the only language that this moron is capable of speaking? Threats to China, calling names to political adversaries, attacking US COMPANIES? threatening the voters of our democracy? That after all these decades crying about the dictators in russia, china, venezuela, cuba you are completely incapable of identifying that this guy is slowly eroding our protections for democracy? Accountability, free press, transparency, democracy, Abusing his power via the labradoodle that is W. Barr? This is no longer about conservatism vs liberalism this is about saving the core of this country.
Dude, quite a bit of the criminal justice system is just plain rigged. However, that's the way the establishment wants it and the electorate tolerates it.
It is. It is complex, many times outdated, unfair. This is however not the main focus in this thread, I will not pursue further more detailed discussions on this topic on this thread. Open another if that is what you wish to discuss.
Do you think you get a fair trial in traffic court in a first instance proceeding where the judge acts as judge, jury and prosecutor? No. Obviously not.
Yeah, let's compare your disgruntled reaction of what you perceive as an unjust traffic ticket with the murder of a subdue man in play daylight in front of multiple cameras and that they did not get immediately arrested, and quite frankly as far as I know as of the writing of this reply, 75% of them have still not been arrested even though at the very least they are defacto accessory to the crime that the other guy did. I'm telling you, this only makes it worse for the other guys. The longer it goes with the perception that they are getting preferential treatment, the harsher the punishment that the mob will demand.
Welcome to establishment politics, and why I no longer consider myself owing them any allegiance.
Your allegiances appear quite evident to me to be honest.
Yes, because people get off on charges like those made by Pants-of-dog--strangulation, asphyxiation, etc. You only need to make a general charge that you can sustain. Once you get down to the nitty gritty, you have to get it right or it can be successfully rebutted by the defense.
You, I, and a few others, perhaps everyone, in this thread can intellectually understand this. Remember, we do not accurately represent the average level of education, political and law understanding of the general citizen. I can objectively watch the video and I'm 90%+ certain that this is a slam dunk manslaughter case for the principal officer and some sort of lesser charge (accessory) to the rest. While it is quite possible that with more evidence and a skillful prosecutor the might get more severe charges to stick, I cannot claim the same degree of certainty for such. However, what it is quite clear is that there is enough evidence for all 4 to be arrested immediately after the event and that did not occur and for 75% of them it has not. As a result, you will have a progressively energetic "mob" of people that are rightfully demanding justice. Most of them don't understand or care for the difference between manslaughter, murder 3 or murder 1, and frankly, they are not going to learn it even if you go scream at them in a protest, on TV or in an internet thread. This is why it is so important for things to be done properly from the start, and not allow them to grow until they get out of control.
This is why these people should have been arrested early on. This is why leadership at all levels of government, from the mayor to the governor to the president should have been reconciliatory rather than inflammatory.
So simply saying that the knee on his neck was an unnecessary use of force, induced stress and triggered a cascade of health-related issues that would not have occurred had the officer not unnecessarily placed a knee on Floyd's neck along with some of the officer's substantial body weight. That's all you have to do. You don't have to work yourself into a dither and claim he was choked to death.
Well... he was choked to death. You yourself admitted as such earlier if this event had not occurred, there is an almost absolute degree of certainty that this guy would still be alive today. Whether the direct cause of death was not enough air going into his lungs, not enough oxygenated blood going to his brain, a broken neck and/or some other explanation is complete besides the point.
Furthermore, we discussed this earlier. When people get hanged, they might die by a variety of different mechanisms. But if I hang somebody in my basement (hypothetical, I dont actually have a basement)
whether the head is ripped off by the rope/fall, wether the person is asphyxiated or wether the neck breaks (or any other possible combination) is mostly irrelevant.
That's what I'm saying. Instead of focusing on someone who could have, and probably should have done something--namely, Amy Klobuchar--you are focusing on Trump's tweets as though they somehow bear on a local police case when Trump has no police power, in a Democrat run city, in a Democrat run county, in a Democrat run state.
Please... as if this shit doesn't happen in Georgia, remind me is Georgia a democratic state? If your point had any merit I could sit here and find you a bizillion other examples but it is not worth my time because it is not a sincere point.
The fact is, blacks, in general, tend to vote democrat, so it is not a fucking surprise that there is at least some democratic leadership, at least locally, where the shootings of these black people end up happening. Correlation does not imply causation. Most alligators attacks happen in republican controlled states, so I guess if people don't like being attacked by alligators they should vote Democrat
You are going way out of your way not to name the political party that is in charge when this stuff happens.
Really? How so?
Let me help you out. Here is a list of the mayors of the 50 largest cities in the United States: List of mayors of the 50 largest cities in the United States
I already explained to you why this is complete nonsense.
Blaming this stuff on Republicans is what Democrats and their media lackeys do to cover their own crimes.
Come on really? Are you fucking yanking my balls right now? Can you give them back to me? I'd like to keep my balls.
Please... you got orange potato still blaming Obama almost 4 years since Obama is out of the picture for just about everything and some fucking how you want me to believe that the real problems is democrats blaming republicans? Are you fucking out of your mind?
I am not going to dignify that comment with anything else than a flat out dismissal, it does not deserve anything higher.
It changes what force is allowed in effecting an arrest. In this case, trying to utter counterfeit money is a felony.
It does not.
Let's say that we find out a video of George shooting and killing someone. The facts of the case would be absolutely the same. Identical. Perhaps you wouldn't have protesters because of the gray moral perceptions I'll grant you that. But the facts of the case, the murder/manslaughter case, the police brutality and quite frankly the bland response by the police foce in terms of prosecution would be identically disgusting and wrong.
Seriously if you are trying to make the case "well he was a criminal, he kind of deserved it" kind of approach... stop it, it is quite distasteful and it wouldn't serve you as a good line of attack anyway. The facts of the case are pretty obvious and whether he actually had counterfeit money or not is completely irrelevant. I could go in the route of "well maybe he was handed that money and didn't know it was counterfeit" or "maybe he didn't have counterfeit money at all and this is just a lame excuse by the police" or "this is all alleged" etc... the point is IT DOES NOT CHANGE ANYTHING. IT DOES NOT CHANGE ANYTHING. IT >>>> AINT CHANGE A FUCKING THING.
I'm just explaining to you how the system works so that you can understand it.
I prefer if someone that actually understands the system explains it. Cops OK to murder someone because that someone was holding counterfeit money does not seem like the explanation of someone that understands the system.
It does not justify in any way putting a knee on someone's neck after they are already in hand cuffs.
Here we go, we have to go through a few sentences of nonsense and shit, depraved justifications to finally arrive to the same conclusion. IT DOES NOT CHANGE ANYTHING.
This is what I mean by not giving in to histrionics. Floyd was not executed. He died as the proximate cause of excessive and unnecessary use of force.
You don't seem to understand the context of my rhetoric. I was not implying that the cops judged him and sentenced to death. I was pointing out that whether George was a criminal or not, or whether he committed a crime or not does not change at all the situation (IT DOES NOT CHANGE ANYTHING). And that even if he was indeed a criminal, the police wouldn't have the right to be judge, jury, and executioner and therefore the "he was a criminal anyway" is not a justification. (AKA IT DOES NOT CHANGE ANYTHING).
I don't find it hard. I find it hard that you do not accept that these events happen in places controlled overwhelmingly by Democrats, and they always blame it on Republicans, white supremacists, etc. Let me restate mayor Frey's comment for you:
Cities are overwhelmingly democrat, and democrats seem to be the ones that actually care enough to protest/defend the rights of fellow human beings. So I am not surprised that the places where there are democratic people that empathize with this pain are also rightfully so represented by democrats. Again, you seem to try to imply that this is a result of being lead by democrats. Correlation does not imply causation if so we should all vote democrats unless you want to be attacked by alligators
If anything, it is quite sad that we don't seem to see the same degree of pain, anguish, and demand from action from heavily Republican-controlled places. What does that say of those people....
Really? Maybe people have just had enough with Democrats and their holy-than-thou bullshit, political correctness, cancel culture, wage destroying outsourcing and illegal immigration, and working-class livelihood destroying lockdowns. Maybe those things have something to do with it. Just maybe...
LOL
The late 20th and early 21st centuries are pretty soft times when it comes to Western governments. It was common for riots to be put down with military force. Hell, they even used military force to put down labor unions in the past. I'm not a communist, but even I know that.
Good old days right?
Yeah, but Biden would probably refer to her with a racial epithet at some point knowing how daffy he can be. I just can't see his VP being Amy Klobuchar now, and two weeks ago, I would have given her an 80% chance.
Fine with me. Amy Klobuchar seems to have the charisma of a boiled potato. Don't get me wrong, i have absolutely nothing against her. In fact, I know so little about her because she always seemed boring and I never bother learning in-depth about her because I figured she was not going to get too far anyway. Don't get me wrong, I am not buying into all this Ami Klobuchar blaming non-sense, and perhaps we would be far better served by a boring/bland president, certainly, the orange disparate that we have now served as a great case for a boring and bland president but the fact remains that woman and boring for good or bad (and certainly unfairly) sealed her fate early on.
I'm not for restoring the neoliberal/neoconservative cabal. So I'm prepared to live with Trump for another four years.
That is sad.
In terms of what he's done so far, I'd say Trump gets a C-/D+. However, anyone else would be worse.
LOL
You've got to be fucking kidding me.
You are seriously telling me that you would give Obama or Bill Clinton even less than that? This is hilarious.
Dude, if Trump gets a C- or D+ Bush is a solid B+, and Obama and Clinton are in the A range. This is funny in a tragic and deluded way.
We simply do not have a better candidate that's not going to sign off on the neoliberal/neoconservative cabal.
Tell me, what country would you consider the best country for the past 100 years.
Well, that's okay. Minnesota is like the American version of Canada. They think a little too well of themselves.
I think there is probably something missing. A but or something else that you forgot to say. I cannot make heads or tails of what you intended to say with that comment.
I have no idea how old you are, but I'm a cord cutter and got rid of DirectTV and watch Fubo now. I have a few hundred episodes of All in the Family and Sanford and Son. If you think the US is racist now, you should watch a few episodes of that stuff. Insult comedy wasn't a crime in the past, and people would talk about TV shows at the water cooler the next day in the not too distant past. Today, there is no collective TV experience and it's so sanitized and political that it is just boring propaganda anymore.
I don't know what exactly you mean by this. We literally have the widest range of TV for any degree and taste of consumption that there have ever been in history. Finding far-right or far-left content is not even hard, finding comedians that make fun of sex, gender, race, and religion is not hard either? in fact, the majority of them seem to make their career around it. What is less common is the presence of cruelty when they address those topics. If that is the spice that you are looking for, well I for one am happy that this is not as common.
Some of this stuff happens more often than you think.
I happen to think this happens way too often...
These guys will be tried, and we'll see what they say. I don't think there is any excuse for the officer's behavior (especially the knee on the neck), but you may hear one if the prosecution doesn't offer a plea bargain. Some of this stuff happens more often than you think. For example, my buddy was involved in an arrest where the suspect died. The suspect was absolutely unruly after being taken to the station. So the medical orderlies administered the maximum allowable dose of a sedative and the suspect died. Probably sloppy medical work, because they probably didn't test for intoxicants and took the arrestee's statements at face value. When you see absolutely unruly behavior like that, it can be psychosis due to excessive methamphetamine use. That's often the case. However, it can also be a response hitting glutamate receptors due to withdraw from PCP, Ketamine, etc. The latter are downers, and when you see someone psychotic like that, you don't tend to think withdrawal from downers. You think psychometh dude. Administer another downer, and it's game over. It happens. In fact, for a downer like heroin or fentanyl they've removed the need for a prescription for Narcan, because people are constantly overdosing on fentanyl in the streets. Emergency rooms don't want these people, so the system is evolving for first responders to administer Narcan. It's a mighty fucked up world some people live in.
Seem like your buddies did what these police people would have done. I won't comment on the rest.
- By FiveofSwords
- By Godstud
- By litwin
