Pants-of-dog wrote:Getting back to your claim about how civilians cannot engage in violence, we see that laws do allow for such violence in certain respects. So antifa cannot and should not be considered a terrorist group solely on the basis of civilian violence.
What kind of laws?
....for white people. I think black and indigenous people have a less democratic reality.
Well I suppose, since they are a minority of the vote. They have to basically convince the white majority to agree with them to change laws. That's how Jim Crow laws ended, for instance. My point is that violence should be a measure of last resort. If voting, peaceful protest, and civil disobedience etc. has been tried and fails, only then should violence be considered.
The current reality in the USA today is not that far from a police state. There are many videos of cops attacking press, random civilians, peaceful protesters, and other innocent people for the audacity of filming them or protesting their actions.
The key here is that this police violence is not systemic. These are rogue cops acting outside the law, outside our democratic system, breaking the oaths they took when they became officers. It's now up to the system to punish these rogue cops because they are criminals, as much so as any rioter, actually more so since rioters are mostly only breaking/stealing property not shooting people with tasers. Systemic violence and a police state would be government law passed saying these cops can taze, punch etc. any innocent peaceful protestor they like.
Unfortunately rogue cops are a problem, and one that will probably never go away even with the most just system. Rogue cops break people's rights all the time, for whites, blacks, latinos, and all races, I watch Youtube videos of it all the time. Some rogue cops go to prison, as they should.
With George Floyd, it makes no sense to riot right now. Violence and riots should be a measure of last resort. I would think riots would only justifiable if the cop was never brought to justice. If it was clear he was never going to be charged, or if some crooked judge lets the cop off of the charges. You have to let the system work first. If democracy fails, meaning the courts, peaceful protest, civil disobedience, voting etc all fail...ok then go riot. Just being outraged isn't justification enough. People are PO'd at things the government does all the time.
Riots aren't democratic, it's a minority going out and taking the law into their own hands, without the consent of the majority. It's tyranny, and not any different than rogue cops committing unlawful violence. Both are a minority of people committing violence against the will of the majority. Only one is top-down, the other bottom-up. The reason cops have a monopoly on violence is because the rules on how and when they can act are decided by the people, with oversight by the people. Terrorism is outside that too, these are rogue citizens acting just like rogue cops, outside the law, doing whatever the fuck they please.
The only time terrorism should be justified is if democracy has broken down, tyranny reigns, the will of the people no longer rules, and civilian violence is then used only as long as is needed to restore democracy. To fight tyranny with tyranny to achieve democracy, after all other peaceful petitions for redress have gone unanswered. This is what the American Revolution was, and essentially what the Declaration of Independence says.