African-American Asphyxiated by Police in Minneapolis - Page 55 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15096693
blackjack21 wrote:Not exactly. The president does have that authority. Bush federalized National Guard troops in California during the LA riots. Eisenhower did too to enforce school desegregation. Troops are not allowed to enforce basic laws, but they can put down insurrections and rebellions.


But in LA, this was after California's governor requested for Federal assistance. In Little Rock, it was a Civil Rights issue, which is one of the exceptions to that rule.

blackjack21 wrote:Basically, the president has the authority to suppress rebellions and insurrections, and that is what we're seeing now. The president announced today that he would do that. I suggest he starts with Lafayette park first, and then move on to Minneapolis. It's going to take 100k troops on the streets. It's not going to be a small use of force.


The President does but it's not unlimited either (obviously to prevent the Federal Government from abusing power, which is also why they made it a Federal crime at the pressure of the South to stop the Reconstruction - it's a bit ironic this is now limiting Trump's powers):

US Code wrote:Whenever there is an insurrection in any State against its government, the President may, upon the request of its legislature or of its governor if the legislature cannot be convened, call into Federal service such of the militia of the other States, in the number requested by that State, and use such of the armed forces, as he considers necessary to suppress the insurrection.


blackjack21 wrote:They fought the Civil War. So... Do you think the Civil War was illegal?


Also an exception under the preamble to the Constitution and the Articles of Confederation (which said that the Union is to be perpetual - how can the Union become more perfect yet stop being perpetual?). And then, if it happened again, I guess the following would apply:

US Code wrote:Whenever the President considers that unlawful obstructions, combinations, or assemblages, or rebellion against the authority of the United States, make it impracticable to enforce the laws of the United States in any State by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, he may call into Federal service such of the militia of any State, and use such of the armed forces, as he considers necessary to enforce those laws or to suppress the rebellion.


blackjack21 wrote:A lot of the people commenting here are not American and do not understand the sentiments on the ground.


Although I live in the US, I'm not American. Maybe that's why I see things differently, and can read the signals differently as well.

@Saeko posted something from Reddit that is saying what I did earlier with regards to the Democrats: They are being deserted by its far left wing, and while I would not be so sure they will leave electoral politics to do politics by other means in the long run, it does seem to me many may stay home come November. If they do, you'll get Trump again.

This isn't even an American thing, it's been happening in other countries. And indeed, one could even say this should have been expected to happen here given the ideological influence from the American far left: Americans are kinda self-centered not to realize this, but their identity politics is one of the US' nontraditional exports that also happens to be even more damaging than one of America's other nontraditional exports (CO2) and has gone to the extent that Marxism is secondary to the far left outside America even if there has not been an explicit repudiation of it. Snowflakism, along with the zealotry that goes with the most extreme cases of if, has also been another thing both the American far left and far right have been exporting abroad although the former has been more successful so far.

The far left they have been influencing abroad has also been deserting the party system in presidential republics, and for the same reasons as in the US: The rest of society isn't willing to vote for them and give in to everything they demand, even if some of their concerns are shared by much of the public, at least in part because of how they conduct themselves - you know, cancel culture, snowflakism and the like, so why would the US be an exception? The left wing of the Democrat party lost twice in 2016 (first, within the Party to Hillary Clinton and then they got Trump), and lost again (and with a lot more authority) to Biden in the Democratic primary. Since they see both as being part of the same system (in the same way that they see African American majors, police superintendents and cops themselves to be part of the same racist system), and they are absolutely convinced to be beacons of morality for society, it's not that surprising to see them to stop playing the a game they don't like and which they don't win.

The thing, however, is that they don't realize they are playing with fire by doing that: If they decide to pursue politics by the fist, they shouldn't expect the rest of society to cave in to something that looks a lot like an imposition. I would seriously advice them to stop doing that, because their chances of winning are about zero: They have neither the arms (they don't like the cops and the cops don't like them, they don't like the military and the military doesn't like them and they don't even like guns themselves) nor the popular support to win this fight. Even if Trump (hopefully) loses, Biden is unlikely to give in to everything either because he will address issues like police brutality, healthcare, poverty and the environment in the way his constituency, the moderate wing of the Party, wants, not in the way Bernie bros want since the winner of the Democratic primary was Joe Biden and not Bernie Sanders. And they will have to accept they cannot impose themselves on everyone else without facing pushback (Trump's election was itself a warning), something they seem to be unable to do which will lead to harsher pushback. Until now they've been regarded as an annoyance but given the lawlessness going on right now they may end up being regarded as something worse, in the same way anarchists came to be regarded 100 years ago and which ended badly for them.
#15096695
wat0n wrote:I wouldn't say solid is the best term, even before this. It's doing better than in 2016 but the primary did show and even underscore that the party is indeed divided. Trump seemingly purged all the internal opposition in the GOP.

It's stable then, or however you name it. To me Trump still seems an outsider both in Washington and the GOP, hence his presidential power is more limited than usual.

Julian658 wrote:Said the Democrats two weeks before the election after it was revealed Trump had grabbed pussy. :lol: :lol: :lol: Trump is miserable and not equipped to be president, but he knows how to play the game.

BTW, his photo op in front of the church was AWFUL, but who knows he is pandering to the Christians.

In my opinion Trump was in a better position then than he's now. Then he was a completely new dark-horse candidate against a controversial Democratic nominee who also happened to lead an awful campaign after eight years of a Democratic presidency. He also can't argue the country's in better shape than it was when he assumed the presidency.
#15096696
Godstud wrote:Right. Having a cop kneel on him, cutting off his blood supply and oxygen supply had nothing to do with it.

Fuck off racist twat.

Neck != heart.

Lately I've been reading a bit about eusociality in insects. This is the process by which the Queen insect controls the rest of the hive. Unlike what some earlier observations suggested, insect eusociality is not perfect. Some insects are affected by it more than others. In order to smooth things over, the Queen basically has enforcers (which are usually more closely related to her) that will go around and do stuff to the insects which were not fully manipulated by the Queen's pheromones. These enforcers spend most of their time near the outsides of the hive because the further away from the Queen one is, the weaker the pheromones become.

Humans also exhibit a form of what might be called eusociality. The way it works is pretty simple: when "peer pressure" is exerted, the rational part of the brain turns off. The extent to which this happens varies from individual to individual. Meanwhile, the more people whom believe something, the more "peer pressure" we see on an issue, which can cause a "tidal wave" effect if something really takes off.

One thing to understand about eusociality in humans is that, unlike with insects, it isn't carried out through something as simple as pheromones. It's carried out through many other mechanisms and also unlike with insects, literally every member of a human "hive" is capable of attempting to manipulate the weight of eusocial influence. And try they do.

To understand why the black accountant killed when the police busted into the wrong apartment doesn't cause riots but the George Floyd thing does, the answer is at least three-fold. To put it simply though, people can be effected by their own attempts at manipulation. They see a bad-looking cell phone video and since it looks bad, they think everyone else will be manipulated. They get in on it, other people get in on it, they jointly influence each other and gain confidence from the perceived tidal wave that is forming, even if the guy who died turns out to be a meth addict and ex-burglar who was on fentanyl.

Unfortunately, the hysteria has people endorsing truly random violence because Orange Man Bad. Wasn't orange man also bad when the accountant was killed? What changed?

You are the little bitches here, not me :)
#15096697
It's obvious that you don't understand a fucking thing about the human body. You failed biology, didn't you?

When the oxygen supply to the brain is decreased, it causes the heart to struggle to pump harder to get that oxygen to the brain. In fact, most heart attacks are caused by a restriction(usually a blood vessel or artery that is clogged), but in this case it was the pressure of a cop's knee.

Heart attack: A heart attack occurs when one or more of your coronary arteries become blocked. In this case, a racist cop's knee was doing the blocking.

I know your tiny racist brain has trouble comprehending facts, but there you go. :knife:
#15096699
Wulfschilde wrote:so I would assume.

You assume wrong.


Restraint asphyxia is a form of positional asphyxia that occurs during the process of subduing and restraining an individual in a manner causing ventilation compromise (Stratton, Rogers, Brickett & Gruzinski, 2001, p. 190). As a consequence of the restraint application, respiration is compromised causing insufficient oxygen in the blood to meet the body’s oxygen needs or demands (hypoxia) which then results in a disturbed heart rhythm (cardiac arrhythmia (Patterson, et al., 1998, p. 62). Ultimately, ventricular tachyarrhythmia may precipitate ventricular fibrillation (uncoordinated flutter or quivering of the heart muscle), cardiac arrest and death.

Prone restraint and the associated chest immobilization may also directly impact the functioning of the heart. The left side of the heart (left ventricle) pumps oxygenated blood into the body. The right side of the heart receives venous blood back from the body’s tissues and sends it into the lungs to expel carbon dioxide and pick up oxygen. The right atrium of the heart, which receives venous blood back for circulating in the body, is located midway between the vertebral column (or spine) and the sternum (or chest plate). When an individual is restrained prone, the right atrium is compressed. It is sandwiched between sternum and vertebral column. This limits the heart’s capacity to receive blood return from the body. Meanwhile, the left side of the heart is still working, pumping blood into the brain and body as usual. With the blood not returning to the heart, it begins pooling in the tissues. When the pressure in the venous system builds up, it the causes rupture of small venous branches resulting in small hemorrhages. Small purplish hemorrhagic spots (petechiae) have long been considered corroborative evidence of asphyxia. Petechiae appear when blood pools in the small veins (venules) and capillaries, due to an impairment or obstruction invenous blood return in the presence of continued arterial input (Ely & Hirsch, 2000, p. 1276).

Any individual’s respiratory capacity will be compromised when restrained prone for a sufficient duration of time.
#15096703
Beren wrote:It's stable then, or however you name it. To me Trump still seems an outsider both in Washington and the GOP, hence his presidential power is more limited than usual.


Maybe, I guess that would depend on how the GOP establishment works. So far at least he seems to be reigning supreme within the Party (although if he loses on November, there will be a purge within it) and he also seems to have been able to get more yes people within the administration.
#15096710
wat0n wrote:That the riots have led to more murders because the police has too much stuff on its hands right now is not controversial. This last weekend was the deadliest one in Chicago so far in 2020, with 19 murders.


You can start a thread about it.

What kind of strange reading of Minnesota law is that? :eh:

"Any person" would of course include George Floyd.


https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/05/31/ ... ds-killer/

    ....

    It took several excruciating days before the county’s chief prosecutor, Michael Freeman, finally saw fit to file criminal charges against Chauvin, and then only for second-degree manslaughter, an offense punishable by up to 10 years in prison but usually resulting in a much lighter sentence, as well as something Minnesota calls third-degree murder, a crime punishable by up to 25 years but applicable only where someone unintentionally causes death by “reckless or wanton acts … without special regard to their effect on any particular person” — like shooting aimlessly into a crowd.

    No one remotely familiar with Minnesota law would regard either of those charges as the right ones to bring in this case — a case where, even if intent cannot be proven, a second-degree felony murder charge, punishable by 40 years in prison, is manifestly justified. Under a quirk in Minnesota law, second-degree murder can be charged where an assault — such as the first-degree assault evident from Chauvin’s placement of his knee on Floyd’s neck for nearly nine minutes — unintentionally results in death.

    More critically, anyone steeped in Minnesota law would recognize that the third-degree murder charge would likely be summarily dismissed for the ironic reason that Chauvin clearly aimed his acts at Floyd. Such a miscarriage of justice would surely trigger still more chaos and violence from coast to coast as people across the political spectrum come to see American justice as unworthy of the name.

    One of us (Albert Goins) is a criminal law practitioner with decades of experience in criminal defense and the civil prosecution of police misconduct in Minnesota. The other (Laurence Tribe) is a legal scholar, teacher, and advocate with a half-century of experience in interpreting legal texts and applying constitutional principles to their enforcement. Both of us are baffled by what’s going on in this explosive case — one that has reopened the deepest wounds imaginable in our nation’s four-century-long struggle with race and that has triggered violent riots throughout the country.

    Perhaps the Hennepin County prosecutor has simply made a gross filing error. Maybe he meant second-degree murder when he said third-degree murder. But somehow that seems unlikely. There is just too much well-settled precedent in Minnesota dealing with the inapplicability of third-degree murder charges where “all the blows were directed towards the victim.”

    Besides, it seems a bit too convenient for this “error” to have come atop a coroner’s report that goes out of its way to note that Floyd’s death may have resulted not from asphyxiation alone but from a cessation of his ability to breathe compounded by various preexisting medical conditions. The idea that with a somewhat healthier victim, Chauvin’s knee might have had to remain in place a bit longer to cause death doesn’t seem particularly well calculated to exonerate Chauvin of second-degree murder.

    ....

The article includes link to the case law that supports this.

Since when is the DA the only one allowed to request autopsies or even the only autopsy that is done?

So, you have 2 autopsies saying that Chauvin's actions caused Floyd's death. One of them is from the county examiner.


Not quite.

We have two autopsies, one of which has been carefully written to introduce reasonable doubt. Wulfschilde is already arguing this in the thread, so it will work on many US jurists, and you only need one.

Yes, because of grand juries. Hence what I mentioned earlier: Cultural change is essential for getting more prosecutions, and convictions, in the case of police killings.


I highly doubt that it was grans juries who decided that 100% of these killings were justified.

It seems like you are trying to ignore the systemic racism and other factors.

Maybe, but how many would be (certainly not all of them were unjustified under the law either) and why wouldn't they end in prosecutions or convictions? Is it necessarily because of racism or there could be other reasons such as lack of evidence? One would need to read his books to have more details, I suppose.


Feel free.

I have already provided evidence showing that cops routinely get away with shooting people.

Sure:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Police_Strike
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_police_strike


Please quote the relevant text.

But they did not call the police on him just for being a black person with a counterfeit bill. He seemingly ignored them and left. Up until then, this isn't all that out of the ordinary - or you believe that if you did the same they would not call the police on you?

What happened afterwards, however, is squarely the cops' responsibility. Just as in the other 10 cases you cited earlier, which do include Whites, even if overall (at the national level) African Americans are (way) overrepresented in this statistic. And this is wrong, even if it's true that the amount of these incidents has been decreasing over time for both races (which should also be acknowledged - and does show that there have been improvements since BLM) there's still a lot of work to do. And I don't think anyone denies this.


Yes, in at least one case, I just ignored the guy and left because I had no other cash and did not feel like talking to some strangers about my private financial life.
#15096723
SpecialOlympian wrote:This morning, the people of Washington D.C. came out to support the President of the United State of America, who is the world's biggest bitch.

Image

This photo was taken as the presidential motorcade drove by on a trip to another dumb religious photo op.


:lol: Epic.
#15096736
Beren wrote:
In my opinion Trump was in a better position then than he's now. Then he was a completely new dark-horse candidate against a controversial Democratic nominee who also happened to lead an awful campaign after eight years of a Democratic presidency. He also can't argue the country's in better shape than it was when he assumed the presidency.

The Dems tried Pussy, Russia, Ukraine, Putin, North Korea, racism, impeachment, and many other maneuvers. However the Corona virus had the best chance to knock Trump out. The media had successfully convinced everyone that Trump was the main cause of the deaths attributed to Corona.

Now we have the riots and the looting and more so-called racism from Trump. Honestly, I don't know if this helps the cause of the Democrats. The Dems paint themselves as the non-racist party of the minorities. However, once again they are alienating blue collar working class white people. If Trump wins in November we will have more riots. The Dems have successfully divided America.
#15096737
Julian658 wrote:The Dems tried Pussy, Russia, Ukraine, Putin, North Korea, racism, impeachment, and many other maneuvers. However the Corona virus had the best chance to knock Trump out. The media had successfully convinced everyone that Trump was the main cause of the deaths attributed to Corona.

Now we have the riots and the looting and more so-called racism from Trump. Honestly, I don't know if this helps the cause of the Democrats. The Dems paint themselves as the non-racist party of the minorities. However, once again they are alienating blue collar working class white people. If Trump wins in November we will have more riots. The Dems have successfully divided America.


Why do you refuse to criticize Trump on anything? It just makes you look like a dishonest crackpot.
#15096738
That's how it works. You either support the idea that the police shouldn't wantonly murder black people in supporting a two tiered system of justice. Or you support blue collar white people. It's one or the other.

Donna wrote:Why do you refuse to criticize Trump on anything? It just makes you look like a dishonest crackpot.



But you see, he doesn't actually support Trump. He just thinks Trump was the best candidate and that we live in the best of all possible worlds.
#15096741
Donna wrote:Why do you refuse to criticize Trump on anything? It just makes you look like a dishonest crackpot.

Not, really. I have stated many times that Trump is incompetent and a narcissist----and probably a racist. I am not sure about the latter. I think he pretends to be a racist and xenophobe to pander to the redneck voters. Just as he pretends to be a Christian to panders to Evangelicals. Just as some white Dems pander to blacks.

Watch video at 54 secs as Hillary tries to sound black.
#15096742
SpecialOlympian wrote:

But you see, he doesn't actually support Trump. He just thinks Trump was the best candidate and that we live in the best of all possible worlds.

Trump is a jerk. But, in 2016 I honestly believed that jerk was a better choice than Hillary. This time i may vote for Biden assuming he picks Amy Klobuchar as VP.
#15096749
Wat0n wrote:But in LA, this was after California's governor requested for Federal assistance. In Little Rock, it was a Civil Rights issue, which is one of the exceptions to that rule.

Yeah. California had Republican governors back then. Pete Wilson and George H.W. Bush worked together to restore order. Later, Richard Riordan was elected to the mayoralty of LA. Trump has already backed up the governor of Florida and mayor of Miami. I suspect they will have things quiescent in the red states in short order. Then, the electorate will see how much damage coronavirus did in blue states versus red states, and how much damage rioting did in blue states versus red states, and they will get to make a decision in 5 months. One wonders what other crazy shit the establishment will pull before then.

Wat0n wrote:The President does but it's not unlimited either (obviously to prevent the Federal Government from abusing power, which is also why they made it a Federal crime at the pressure of the South to stop the Reconstruction - it's a bit ironic this is now limiting Trump's powers):

Indeed. Trenchant point.

Wat0n wrote:Also an exception under the preamble to the Constitution and the Articles of Confederation (which said that the Union is to be perpetual - how can the Union become more perfect yet stop being perpetual?). And then, if it happened again, I guess the following would apply:

That's what I was alluding to. A bunch of media talking heads started saying this wasn't a riot, but a rebellion.

Wat0n wrote:@Saeko posted something from Reddit that is saying what I did earlier with regards to the Democrats: They are being deserted by its far left wing, and while I would not be so sure they will leave electoral politics to do politics by other means in the long run, it does seem to me many may stay home come November. If they do, you'll get Trump again.

Well, I don't think the Democrats have made a case to win back the white working class. If anything, they had a taste of low unemployment and wage increases and the Democrats locked them down with the coronavirus, and now they're back to race politics. Working class white people who have been forced out of work by the government are not going to see unemployment checks as "white privilege" and want to hear even more lectures.

Wat0n wrote:This isn't even an American thing, it's been happening in other countries. And indeed, one could even say this should have been expected to happen here given the ideological influence from the American far left: Americans are kinda self-centered not to realize this, but their identity politics is one of the US' nontraditional exports that also happens to be even more damaging than one of America's other nontraditional exports (CO2) and has gone to the extent that Marxism is secondary to the far left outside America even if there has not been an explicit repudiation of it.

I've been sure we were going to see violence for weeks. I was inclined to think it would come from the blue collar working class. Instead, they just created another race riot, and if you aren't voting for Joe Biden, you ain't black.

Wat0n wrote:The left wing of the Democrat party lost twice in 2016 (first, within the Party to Hillary Clinton and then they got Trump), and lost again (and with a lot more authority) to Biden in the Democratic primary.

They also lost in 2000 putting up Al Gore who was talking about eliminating the internal combustion engine.

Wat0n wrote:Since they see both as being part of the same system (in the same way that they see African American majors, police superintendents and cops themselves to be part of the same racist system), and they are absolutely convinced to be beacons of morality for society, it's not that surprising to see them to stop playing the a game they don't like and which they don't win.

Well, they are right in that respect. I mean you have a black chief of police. How much more political control of a police force do you need to stop police violence against blacks?

Wat0n wrote:The thing, however, is that they don't realize they are playing with fire by doing that: If they decide to pursue politics by the fist, they shouldn't expect the rest of society to cave in to something that looks a lot like an imposition. I would seriously advice them to stop doing that, because their chances of winning are about zero: They have neither the arms (they don't like the cops and the cops don't like them, they don't like the military and the military doesn't like them and they don't even like guns themselves) nor the popular support to win this fight.

I think almost to a man they don't understand it. FoxNews interviewed a 16-year old kid, who thought "it has to be done" and "no justice, no peace." He has no idea what he's condemned himself too: no jobs, no business. The rioters also thought going to Rodeo Drive, Beverley Hills or Santa Monica was a good idea. In my area, they came to the town I grew up in: Walnut Creek. Walnut Creek has more police officers per capita than Detroit and a fraction of the crime rate. Poor dumb kids are told, "Go over the hill into Walnut Creek. That's where the money is" and they are arrested almost immediately.

Wat0n wrote:Biden is unlikely to give in to everything either

They won't do anything. They'll blame it all on Trump if they win, and then they will do nothing. That's how the establishment operates all over the US and Europe. Someone like @noemon will say, "The fish rots from the head," but only when a Republican is president. Did Obama make Darren Wilson shoot Michael Brown? Did Obama make the NYPD choke hold Eric Garner? Did Obama make the OPD shoot Oscar Grant? See? All that rhetoric goes away when the welfare state people are on top. When they aren't, it's all name calling all the time. What happened in Minneapolis is standard Democrat urban political machine.

Julian658 wrote:This time i may vote for Biden assuming he picks Amy Klobuchar as VP.

You really want the prosecutor who let Derek Chauvin off the hook so that he could go on to kill Floyd to be the VP nominee? Are you serious?
#15096751
Pants-of-dog wrote:Neither Democrats nor Republicans are blameless.

Police violence against black people happens under both administrations. As does the lack of punishment for murdering police.

POD: Police violence is a problem in America-----------the cops shoot more whites than blacks. I am not saying there is no racism POD. We have a poorly trained police force.
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