[Pants-of-dog]

@wat0n

Because it is a non-violent crime where restitution can easily be made.

[Unthinking Majority]

You are claiming that in 2019, only two unarmed black people were killed by white cops. Is that correct?

No, as I've stated, and stated very specifically, i'm saying that the data states that only 2 unarmed black people were shot and killed by white cops where the victims were not attacking cops at the time.

And no, I cannot use that database to filter data.

Why not? The filters to search the database are near the bottom of the page.

Also, the WP database only includes officer shootings, which is only a fraction of police killings. For example, Mr, Floyd’s death would not show up in the database.

Yes the database is only tracking people shot and killed by police.

There is also the problem that the WP database is not comprehensive. In fact, there is no such database. We honestly have no idea how many police killings there are every year.

I don't know of any more accurate database for police shootings. Why is it not comprehensive? The FBI admitted the WP database is more accurate than their own numbers. Here's their methodology: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/how-the-washington-post-is-examining-police-shootings-in-the-united-states/2016/07/07/d9c52238-43ad-11e6-8856-f26de2537a9d_story.html

[Pants-of-dog]

No, as I've stated, and stated very specifically, i'm saying that the data states that only 2 unarmed black people were shot and killed by white cops where the victims were not attacking cops at the time.

Okay.

Please note that I have provided 3 examples of unarmed black people who were shot and killed by white cops where the victims were not attacking cops at the time.

Why not? The filters to search the database are near the bottom of the page.

Because one is required to pay to access the website.

Yes the database is only tracking people shot and killed by police.

So we would have to also look at people who die in police custody because of the actions or inactions of police, killings that do not involve shooting, and shootings by off duty police officers in order to find the real number.

I don't know of any more accurate database for police shootings. Why is it not comprehensive? The FBI admitted the WP database is more accurate than their own numbers. Here's their methodology: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/how-the-washington-post-is-examining-police-shootings-in-the-united-states/2016/07/07/d9c52238-43ad-11e6-8856-f26de2537a9d_story.html

It is not comprehensive because PDs are not obligated to provide this information.

[Unthinking Majority]

Okay.

Please note that I have provided 3 examples of unarmed black people who were shot and killed by white cops where the victims were not attacking cops at the time.

I'll go take a look at them.

Because one is required to pay to access the website.

Oh, hmm I have had no problems and I don't pay for it. You probably need to delete your cookies, WP probably allows a certain # of article views before putting a pay wall. I have my browser setup where whenever I close the browser it will delete all of my cookies except for sites I'm logged into.

So we would have to also look at people who die in police custody because of the actions or inactions of police, killings that do not involve shooting, and shootings by off duty police officers in order to find the real number.

Yeah they should expand on the database.

It is not comprehensive because PDs are not obligated to provide this information.

I'm not sure, that's possible. Obviously if a shooting death isn't recorded by anyone or reported in the news there will be no record of it, so some could fall through the cracks.

[wat0n]

@wat0n

Because it is a non-violent crime where restitution can easily be made.

Same would hold for pretty much all types of White collar crime - just name them, and you'll find that restitution can be made just as easily.

Another issue is that the jail time may be useful for deterrence since audits are a drawn and difficult process for the IRS, although it could arguably be precisely because of the high penalty if caught.

[Pants-of-dog]

I'll go take a look at them.

Oh, hmm I have had no problems and I don't pay for it. You probably need to delete your cookies, WP probably allows a certain # of article views before putting a pay wall. I have my browser setup where whenever I close the browser it will delete all of my cookies except for sites I'm logged into.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/fac ... 322455002/

Fact check: Police killed more unarmed Black men in 2019 than conservative activist claimed
Molly Stellino
USA TODAY

The claim: U.S. police killed eight unarmed Black men in 2019

In response to the nationwide Black Lives Matter movement after the death of George Floyd, Charlie Kirk, the founder and president of the conservative group Turning Point USA, posted a statement on Facebook.

Kirk claimed in a video posted to Facebook during the Blackout Tuesday campaign that, according to the Washington Post’s database of police shootings, police killed eight unarmed Black men in 2019. Other Facebook pages have reposted the video, adding to its viewership.

....

The Post’s data shows police fatally shot 13 unarmed Black men in 2019, five more people than Kirk claimed. Also, police fatally shot an unarmed Black woman, Atatiana Jefferson, 28, on Oct. 12 in Fort Worth Texas. But the Post's database covers only shootings. It does not include deaths caused by beating, tasering or vehicles. George Floyd’s died in police custody after a police officer knelt on his neck for several minutes, which would not have been included in the Post’s data set.

So the WP data shows 14 unarmed black people shot and killed by police in 2019.

Yeah they should expand on the database.

I'm not sure, that's possible. Obviously if a shooting death isn't recorded by anyone or reported in the news there will be no record of it, so some could fall through the cracks.

There is no legislation or policy requiring PDs to keep track of these numbers nor is there any formal tracking by PDs beyond what individual departments do.

————————-

@wat0n

I have no problem with no jail time for as many crimes as possible. The penitentiary system in the US is getting out of control. So yes, many white collar crimes need punishments other than jail.

And restitution would be more useful than the minimum sentences that many white collar criminals now get.

[wat0n]

@Pants-of-dog tax evaders already need to restitute the owed taxes, on top of paying the fine and/or doing jail time.

[Unthinking Majority]

So the WP data shows 14 unarmed black people shot and killed by police in 2019.

Yes, which is the exact same number i've quoted at least 3 different times in this thread, including in at least 2 different posts to you. I'm not sure what your point is.

There is no legislation or policy requiring PDs to keep track of these numbers nor is there any formal tracking by PDs beyond what individual departments do.

Which is why the WP scoured news sources, social media etc., and why WP started tracking in the first place. As I said, some cases could have not been reported by anywhere by anyone. Or maybe they all were. How do we know what that number is?

[Hindsite]

So the WP data shows 14 unarmed black people shot and killed by police in 2019.

In Chicago, there were 18 people murdered in just one day.

18 murders in 24 hours: Inside the most violent day in 60 years in Chicago

"While Chicago was roiled by another day of protests and looting in the wake of George Floyd’s murder, 18 people were killed Sunday, May 31, making it the single most violent day in Chicago in six decades, according to the University of Chicago Crime Lab. The lab’s data doesn’t go back further than 1961.

From 7 p.m. Friday, May 29, through 5 a.m. Monday, June 1, 25 people were killed in the city, with another 85 wounded by gunfire, according to data maintained by the Chicago Sun-Times."

...

"Most homicide victims in Chicago are young, black men, and the suspects are, too. But murders have fallen significantly in recent years, along with police-involved shootings. There were 764 murders and 12 fatal police-involved shootings in 2016, compared with 492 murders and three fatal police-involved shootings last year."

https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020 ... lice-crime

[Pants-of-dog]

Yes, which is the exact same number i've quoted at least 3 different times in this thread, including in at least 2 different posts to you. I'm not sure what your point is.

No, that is not the number you quoted for unarmed black men.

Anyway, please provide evidence that 9 pf these people were attacking cops when they were shot.

Which is why the WP scoured news sources, social media etc., and why WP started tracking in the first place. As I said, some cases could have not been reported by anywhere by anyone. Or maybe they all were. How do we know what that number is?

Again, there is no way of knowing the number since the police do not keep track.

————————

@wat0n

How does that contradict my point?

[wat0n]

@Pants-of-dog what you are saying, basically, is that tax evasion should not be as harshly punished as it is. Following with the obvious policy prescription of lowering the penalty for tax evasion means tax dodgers will have greater incentives to do so. Is this a good idea?

[Pants-of-dog]

@wat0n

I am actually going far further than that and calling for almost all (or even perhaps all) non-violent crimes to have no jail time. If this is done, the US might lower its prison population to that of a developed country.

[wat0n]

@Pants-of-dog good luck with dealing with the rather large increase in those crimes, such as fraud, tax evasion, etc. This would be a windfall for white collar criminals.

[Pants-of-dog]

@wat0n

You continue to ignore the fact that the root causes of crime will be addressed.

[wat0n]

@wat0n

You continue to ignore the fact that the root causes of crime will be addressed.

Politicians will be less corrupt as a result of a stronger social safety net, one that will be funded who knows how since tax collection will become less efficient due to the lower penalty for tax crimes? This makes no sense whatsoever.

[Pants-of-dog]

@wat0n

Do you have an argument?

[wat0n]

@Pants-of-dog yes, the roots of white collar crime are not the same as those affecting poor inner-city neighborhoods.

[Pants-of-dog]

@wat0n

Sure, that makes sense.

——————————————

Back to the topic:

https://www.npr.org/2020/07/13/89032838 ... ting-death

NOEL KING, HOST:

Four months ago, a young black woman named Breonna Taylor was killed by Louisville police in her apartment. Since then, protesters across the country have demanded accountability, but no one has yet been arrested or charged. Amina Elahi of member station WFPL in Louisville is with me now. Good morning, Amina.

AMINA ELAHI, BYLINE: Good morning.

KING: So there is an investigation into Breonna Taylor's killing. Where does it stand?

ELAHI: Well, the investigation is ongoing, and we really don't know when it's going to be wrapped up. As you know, Breonna Taylor was killed during a middle of the night raid on her apartment on March 13, which was linked to a broader narcotics investigation that focused on her ex-boyfriend. She was at home and asleep at the time when her - when the police arrived after midnight. And her then-boyfriend, Kenneth Walker, heard loud banging and the door being broken down. Taylor and Walker were approaching the door when the officers wearing plain clothes entered their home, and Walker, her boyfriend, fired a warning shot thinking the police were intruders. That shot struck a sergeant in the leg, after which he and two other officers fired back. Taylor was hit by multiple bullets and died soon after in her hallway, and she wasn't the target of that narcotics investigation, and nothing illegal was found in her apartment. In fact, the man the police were looking for had already been taken into custody that same night across town. But the investigations by the FBI and the attorney general of Kentucky, who's reviewing the police's internal investigation, are ongoing.

KING: So the police say they were there because of drug activity. But there has been a really interesting development here, which is that Taylor's family says it was something else. It was not about drug activity. It was about something else very specific to Louisville. What are they alleging exactly?

ELAHI: Well, a lawyer for Taylor's family alleged in a court filing last week that her killing was a result of aggressive police actions. And they claim that that was driven by a plan to gentrify the majority-Black neighborhood where her ex-boyfriend, who was the focus of the drug investigation that led to the raids that night, where he lived. And here in Louisville, lawmakers have been planning to investigate Mayor Greg Fischer's actions and decisions. And these allegations have only turned up the heat on the mayor, who denies them. On Friday, he attended a ribbon cutting for a new apartment complex some blocks away, which protesters quickly shut down. Take a listen.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

GREG FISCHER: When you think about what we're trying to do here in the city and what we're trying to do to the country, there's really nothing more fundamental than people...

UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: (Chanting) Liar, liar, gentrifier.

FISCHER: ...Having a stable, affordable home.

UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: (Chanting) Liar, liar, gentrifier.

ELAHI: Soon after those protesters began shouting, the mayor, Greg Fischer, walked away from the podium and stopped the news conference. Now city council members are demanding the administration turn over all documents related to Taylor's killing and the gentrification plan. But since the attorney general of Kentucky and the FBI have asked officials not to release documents while their investigations continue, it's not clear when council members or the public will learn more.

KING: So, ultimately, has anything changed after this young woman's death in Louisville?

ELAHI: There have been some policy changes in Louisville. For example, no-knock warrants were banned in the city last month. And that's something that lawmakers are considering at the state level as well. Also one of the officers involved in this shooting, Brett Hankison, was fired, although he's appealing that firing. And the others are still on paid leave. So the answer is really yes and no.

KING: Amina Elahi of member station WFPL in Louisville. Thanks, Amina.

ELAHI: Thank you.

If I wanted to kill a black person in the US, I would train to be a cop, and then just walk up to them and shoot them, citing my own fear. And then I would get a paid vacation for my efforts.

[wat0n]

@wat0n

Sure, that makes sense.

And thus a one shoe fits all policy seems to be unwise. There is little case for softening the penalties for white-collar crime.

Back to the topic:

https://www.npr.org/2020/07/13/89032838 ... ting-death

NOEL KING, HOST:

Four months ago, a young black woman named Breonna Taylor was killed by Louisville police in her apartment. Since then, protesters across the country have demanded accountability, but no one has yet been arrested or charged. Amina Elahi of member station WFPL in Louisville is with me now. Good morning, Amina.

AMINA ELAHI, BYLINE: Good morning.

KING: So there is an investigation into Breonna Taylor's killing. Where does it stand?

ELAHI: Well, the investigation is ongoing, and we really don't know when it's going to be wrapped up. As you know, Breonna Taylor was killed during a middle of the night raid on her apartment on March 13, which was linked to a broader narcotics investigation that focused on her ex-boyfriend. She was at home and asleep at the time when her - when the police arrived after midnight. And her then-boyfriend, Kenneth Walker, heard loud banging and the door being broken down. Taylor and Walker were approaching the door when the officers wearing plain clothes entered their home, and Walker, her boyfriend, fired a warning shot thinking the police were intruders. That shot struck a sergeant in the leg, after which he and two other officers fired back. Taylor was hit by multiple bullets and died soon after in her hallway, and she wasn't the target of that narcotics investigation, and nothing illegal was found in her apartment. In fact, the man the police were looking for had already been taken into custody that same night across town. But the investigations by the FBI and the attorney general of Kentucky, who's reviewing the police's internal investigation, are ongoing.

KING: So the police say they were there because of drug activity. But there has been a really interesting development here, which is that Taylor's family says it was something else. It was not about drug activity. It was about something else very specific to Louisville. What are they alleging exactly?

ELAHI: Well, a lawyer for Taylor's family alleged in a court filing last week that her killing was a result of aggressive police actions. And they claim that that was driven by a plan to gentrify the majority-Black neighborhood where her ex-boyfriend, who was the focus of the drug investigation that led to the raids that night, where he lived. And here in Louisville, lawmakers have been planning to investigate Mayor Greg Fischer's actions and decisions. And these allegations have only turned up the heat on the mayor, who denies them. On Friday, he attended a ribbon cutting for a new apartment complex some blocks away, which protesters quickly shut down. Take a listen.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

GREG FISCHER: When you think about what we're trying to do here in the city and what we're trying to do to the country, there's really nothing more fundamental than people...

UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: (Chanting) Liar, liar, gentrifier.

FISCHER: ...Having a stable, affordable home.

UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: (Chanting) Liar, liar, gentrifier.

ELAHI: Soon after those protesters began shouting, the mayor, Greg Fischer, walked away from the podium and stopped the news conference. Now city council members are demanding the administration turn over all documents related to Taylor's killing and the gentrification plan. But since the attorney general of Kentucky and the FBI have asked officials not to release documents while their investigations continue, it's not clear when council members or the public will learn more.

KING: So, ultimately, has anything changed after this young woman's death in Louisville?

ELAHI: There have been some policy changes in Louisville. For example, no-knock warrants were banned in the city last month. And that's something that lawmakers are considering at the state level as well. Also one of the officers involved in this shooting, Brett Hankison, was fired, although he's appealing that firing. And the others are still on paid leave. So the answer is really yes and no.

KING: Amina Elahi of member station WFPL in Louisville. Thanks, Amina.

ELAHI: Thank you.

If I wanted to kill a black person in the US, I would train to be a cop, and then just walk up to them and shoot them, citing my own fear. And then I would get a paid vacation for my efforts.

Seems like a conspiracy theory for the most part.

[Pants-of-dog]

@wat0n

1. Again, the idea is to significantly reduce police and the prison population, and to address crime by dealing with the root causes. Unless you think that dealing with the root causes of white collar crime is a bad idea, I have no idea what your argument is.

2. It would explain the inaction on the part of Louisville municipal authorities. Is there any other reason you can think of for giving Ms. Taylor’s killers some paid vacations?