Estonia “set to reject” Chinese-backed Tunnel-to-Helsinki Plan - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Talk about what you've seen in the news today.

Moderator: PoFo Today's News Mods

#15111022
GCR wrote:Estonia “set to reject” Chinese-backed plan to build tunnel to Helsinki

The Estonian government appears set to reject a plan promoted by Finnish entrepreneur Peter Vesterbacka to build the world’s longest undersea tunnel from Helsinki to Tallinn with the help of Chinese investment in favour of a publicly funded project.
Jaak Aab, the Estonian minister of state ownership, told Estonian news site Ärileht that he will recommend that his government does not proceed with Vesterbacka’s plan because of long-unresolved concerns including “environmental, economic and safety reasons”.

He said: “We repeatedly asked the developer to supplement and correct the application; unfortunately, the application submitted for the third time has not dispelled the state’s doubts and is not in line with the state’s interests in all respects. This is despite numerous meetings and years of correspondence.”

The State Ownership ministry has been consulting with the Finnish government, other ministries and sectoral authorities over the Chinese-backed version. He said it was unclear where the funding – expected to be in the region of €16bn – would be found for the construction of the tunnel and the artificial island. There was also concern over the projections for passenger numbers and cargo volumes.

Aab said he would put his support behind another tunnel project backed by both the Estonian and Finnish public authorities. He said: “Creating a cross-border connection is only possible through a joint project between the two countries and the common will of both countries.”

The Estonian government first expressed doubts about Vesterbacka’s plan last August, when Taavi Aas, the economics minister, said in an interview: “We need a clear understanding of where the money is coming from and in what amount. Where are the guarantees that it will be completed? The developer hasn’t been able to say how it estimated the volume of people that will be traveling.”

However, the project had received preliminary support from China Railway International Group, its parent company China Railway Group and China Communications Construction Company, all of whom signed an agreement in July 2019 with Finnish developer Finest Bay Area Development and its main funder, China’s Touchstone Capital Partners.

The project was first suggested by Vesterbacka, a developer of the Angry Birds video game, as a twin-bore 103km-long tunnel that would form the final leg of the EU’s Rail Baltica project.

A feasibility study into the tunnel was concluded in February 2018. It found that by 2050, demand would reach 12.5 million passengers and 4 million tonnes of freight a year. This gave a cost-benefit ratio of only 0.45, owing to the high capital cost, but the study recommended the scheme on the basis of its impact on regional development, which it estimated at between €4bn and €6.9bn a year.


Global Construction Review

Let's see if most countries around the world follow suit.
#15111136
It's good news that Estonia and the UK flipped on their deals with the Chinese. More EU countries need to flip to get the whole of the EU to flip and put China on ice. That would be the first step to Hong Kong's freedom and also the first step to a long cold road ahead. The Chinese need to be blocked off the western markets, totally & entirely. Why? Because they are a danger, and a much bigger danger than people fathom or understand. They are buying all our food stock & property like there is no tomorrow, they are dumping whatever they can get their hands on our markets. They are in full warrior mode, they are organised and determined, if they do not get slapped down as long as we still have the chance in 15 years time or less our lives in the western world will be much different than they are now. Our purchasing power, our economies, our social democratic systems in Europe they will all be gone as we will not have the luxury to sustain them.

And to those bleeding hearts thinking that "its all going to be good", that this is exaggerating, or that the Chinese deserve to be left alone to "develop"(at our expense) as they see fit, then wait till they all start feeling what it is to be on the other side of "privilege".

White or western privilege exists because people fought several wars to earn it for their children and grandchildren, to put them at the head of global civilisation, the mantle of global leadership has been going around western hands ever since the Greeks beats the Persians at Granicus, the mantle has been going around Greeks, Romans, Byzantines(Greco-Romans), Venetians, Spanish, Dutch, Portuguese, British, Russians & Americans(classically educated white people) for the past 2-3 thousand years, and we would be fools to lose it in a couple of decades because we do not have the stomach to defend what is already ours or to face reality for what it is.

Just give you an example, the price of meat is skyrocketing as we speak because the Chinese are buying all the meat they can get their hands on from farms small, medium or big while hogging it all in China. And they are not just doing that with meat, they are doing it with everything. On that rate in less than 10 years we will be paying 10 times more money for food and all the other products the Chinese have set their eyes on while they are trying to get enough leverage to drop the hammer down on all of us. That's called hyper-inflation combined with unemployment, 1/4 loss of GDP's just the past couple of months and lower salaries, shit will hit the fan far quicker than people have been conditioned to imagine.
#15111283
I disagree with anti-Chinese statements. It is not the proper way to help Hong Kong.

All these trade wars, anti- Chinese actions will not bring human rights and democracy but more aggressiveness of Chinese government. I find myself recently at odds with Donald Trump's views on China.

I like a famous saying attributed to Frederic Bastiat. "When goods don’t cross borders, Soldiers will". The West will have to face Chinese army if current trend continues.

The same can be said about EU's relationship between Turkey. Economic blockade imposed by EU will just make Turkey more militarily aggressive. Greece is very likely to pay first price of EU's foolishness.
#15111346
Istanbuller wrote:I disagree with anti-Chinese statements. It is not the proper way to help Hong Kong.


A common misconception is that many people see "helping Hong Kong" as an objective.

And it seems some even believe "making anti-Chinese statement / action" is done as a means to "achieve that objective".

As a person living in Hong Kong, I undoubtedly see "helping Hong Kong" a good thing. However, the above two concepts "just happen to be on the same side" to me.

Istanbuller wrote:I like a famous saying attributed to Frederic Bastiat. "When goods don’t cross borders, Soldiers will". The West will have to face Chinese army if current trend continues.


I actually translated a Chinese article which explored on this concept.


Istanbuller wrote:The same can be said about EU's relationship between Turkey. Economic blockade imposed by EU will just make Turkey more militarily aggressive. Greece is very likely to pay first price of EU's foolishness.


As much as I am often criticised of "spewing anti-China propaganda" and "(rightfully) pick fight with China apologists", I am not fond of the idea that Member Istanbuller making intimidating comments whenever Member noemon makes a post, especially when Member noemon's post makes no mention to Greek-Turkish relations, and China is supposed to be a common enemy of both Turkey and Greece in this case.

I think these two latter paragraphs (picking on China / EU 'using' Greece against Turkey) quite accurately illustrated the mindset of the people who dream of the "resurgence" of their "once-great nation" but do not understand how the world has changed.
#15111351
noemon wrote:It's good news that Estonia and the UK flipped on their deals with the Chinese. More EU countries need to flip to get the whole of the EU to flip and put China on ice. That would be the first step to Hong Kong's freedom and also the first step to a long cold road ahead. The Chinese need to be blocked off the western markets, totally & entirely. Why? Because they are a danger, and a much bigger danger than people fathom or understand.


China doesn't need the US and Europe to develop, or SK and Japan for that matter. If the West cuts itself off, development in China might slow down, but at the same time the West loses its economic leverage and cultural influence.

noemon wrote:They are buying all our food stock & property like there is no tomorrow, they are dumping whatever they can get their hands on our markets. They are in full warrior mode, they are organised and determined, if they do not get slapped down as long as we still have the chance in 15 years time or less our lives in the western world will be much different than they are now. Our purchasing power, our economies, our social democratic systems in Europe they will all be gone as we will not have the luxury to sustain them.


Fear mongering. China is primarly a threat to its neighbors, not to Europe. Economic dependence goes both ways.

noemon wrote:Just give you an example, the price of meat is skyrocketing as we speak because the Chinese are buying all the meat they can get their hands on from farms small, medium or big while hogging it all in China. And they are not just doing that with meat, they are doing it with everything. On that rate in less than 10 years we will be paying 10 times more money for food and all the other products the Chinese have set their eyes on while they are trying to get enough leverage to drop the hammer down on all of us. That's called hyper-inflation combined with unemployment, 1/4 loss of GDP's just the past couple of months and lower salaries, shit will hit the fan far quicker than people have been conditioned to imagine.


This makes no sense. Europe is a net food exporter, China isn't.
#15111377
Rugoz wrote:China doesn't need the US and Europe to develop, or SK and Japan for that matter. If the West cuts itself off, development in China might slow down, but at the same time the West loses its economic leverage and cultural influence.


Using the west's economic leverage is not losing it, but actually using it. Merely the threat of economic sanctions would be better than simply doing nothing at all which is what we have right now. Leverage means nothing if you 're too scared to use it. As for what will happen to China if the wests cut itself off, then that is definitely more than what you imagine.

Fear mongering. China is primarly a threat to its neighbors, not to Europe. Economic dependence goes both ways.


Naivety. China is a huge threat to Europe & the West. She is an economic threat, an industrial threat and a threat for Europe's & the west's global relations. She is a proactive economic, industrial & diplomatic competitor of massive power and if we let her alone she will grow too strong to be able to do anything about it later.

Also the naive assumptions, presumptions and imaginations about China hold no water at all because she has never become a global leader of nations(like the US, Russia, UK, France, Spain, etcetera) and as such there is no point of reference. But I'm not curious at all to find out what she might do when she gains the top spot, I would rather it never happened at all.

At the best case scenario, our countries end up with half the GDP, double the inflation and a lot less comfort than they have today as they will no longer be able to run the show of global economics, resources and relations. This will affect everyone and more than anyone it will affect our middle and lower classes.

Do you think that European and western comforts of social spending in hospitals, benefits, housing is because we are amazing people at planning or because the west controls the global economy....once the west loses that control we all get fucked, including yourselves in what you presume to be isolated Switzerland. Your entire economy has always been based in trading luxury products to rich jet-setters, predominantly in the west. China will do to services and luxury items the same thing she had done to manufactured electronics, she will creep in there and unseat us and she will do the same to energy, food, crops, until she controls as many industries as she can instead of the west.
#15111399
noemon wrote:Also the naive assumptions, presumptions and imaginations about China hold no water at all


Agreed. I think if you're going to make a bunch of claims about China or anywhere really, you should cite some things to support your opinions. As in, I'm genuinely interested in your claims, although I don't view China with the same fear. Not yet, anyway.
#15111420
You support China with all your heart and mind, as you support any country that can stick it to the west, the west losing the global reins to china is something that you support and not only that but something that you argue is coming sooner than expected. You just fail to rationalise that the same way the US deals with "lower-level" countries, that this is the same way that we will be dealt with by China and possibly much much worse as they treat their own people much worse than we do our own, so what would stop them treating us 10 times worse than they treat their own people, but even if they treated us on par with their own that would still be a significant fall of economic, political and human rights standards.
#15111442
noemon wrote:Using the west's economic leverage is not losing it, but actually using it. Merely the threat of economic sanctions would be better than simply doing nothing at all which is what we have right now. Leverage means nothing if you 're too scared to use it. As for what will happen to China if the wests cut itself off, then that is definitely more than what you imagine.


It makes no sense to run out of bullets before the show even started. I do think there should have been a stronger response to the events in Hong Kong, but it is also clear that such a response interferes with China's domestic affairs and that China's handling of the crisis hasn't been excessively violent. How about dropping the one-china policy and start selling weapons to Taiwan instead?

noemon wrote:At the best case scenario, our countries end up with half the GDP, double the inflation and a lot less comfort than they have today as they will no longer be able to run the show of global economics, resources and relations. This will affect everyone and more than anyone it will affect our middle and lower classes.


This is total nonsense. The EU has a 16.5tr euro economy, trade with China is 361bn/198bn (imp/exp) euros. Moreover, if trade with China ceases it will shift to other economies in the mid to long term, for the most part. Obviously nobody has ever run a CGE model on such a scenario, but it's safe to say your numbers are bollocks.

noemon wrote:Do you think that European and western comforts of social spending in hospitals, benefits, housing is because we are amazing people at planning or because the west controls the global economy....once the west loses that control we all get fucked, including yourselves in what you presume to be isolated Switzerland. Your entire economy has always been based in trading luxury products to rich jet-setters, predominantly in the west. China will do to services and luxury items the same thing she had done to manufactured electronics, she will creep in there and unseat us and she will do the same to energy, food, crops, until she controls as many industries as she can instead of the west.


Your silly clichés about the Swiss economy aside (for starters, here's a list of the 20 biggest companies on the Swiss stock exchange: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Market_Index), I'm not afraid of China at all, as long as they trade more or less fairly (they're more protectionist, but then again one can make the argument that developing countries should be allowed to be somewhat more protectionist). Trade benefits both sides. There's certainly the danger that China uses it economic might to achieve political goals, also in Europe (so far it's actually rather the US doing that, not China), hence I think Western industries should be protected to some degree, such that they can retain a significant market share. We should not forget however that Chinese companies operate globally like others, e.g. Huawei just openend an R&D center here, so it's not a black-and-white matter in that regard.
#15111454
noemon wrote:You support China with all your heart and mind, as you support any country that can stick it to the west, the west losing the global reins to china is something that you support and not only that but something that you argue is coming sooner than expected. You just fail to rationalise that the same way the US deals with "lower-level" countries, that this is the same way that we will be dealt with by China and possibly much much worse as they treat their own people much worse than we do our own, so what would stop them treating us 10 times worse than they treat their own people, but even if they treated us on par with their own that would still be a significant fall of economic, political and human rights standards.


I didn't ask you for your opinion about me, just wanted you to cite some of your claims. Just because I oppose war with China, doesn't mean I love everything China. People said I loved Saddam Hussein and Gaddafi and Assad when I opposed war on those countries too. If you think China is going to treat us worse than how the U.S. treats what you call "lower-level" countries, what is your evidence for this? That's what I'm curious about and we are after all on a political message board where these things should be able to be discussed without hostility.

As for how China treats its own people compared to how we're treated in the U.K., I'm yet to see any studies that show Brits have an over 90% satisfaction rate in their government like the people in China have with theirs.
#15111477
skinster wrote:I didn't ask you for your opinion about me, just wanted you to cite some of your claims. Just because I oppose war with China, doesn't mean I love everything China. People said I loved Saddam Hussein and Gaddafi and Assad when I opposed war on those countries too. If you think China is going to treat us worse than how the U.S. treats what you call "lower-level" countries, what is your evidence for this? That's what I'm curious about and we are after all on a political message board where these things should be able to be discussed without hostility.


nice try but no cigar :lol:
#15111495
skinster wrote:I didn't ask you for your opinion about me, just wanted you to cite some of your claims. Just because I oppose war with China, doesn't mean I love everything China. People said I loved Saddam Hussein and Gaddafi and Assad when I opposed war on those countries too. If you think China is going to treat us worse than how the U.S. treats what you call "lower-level" countries, what is your evidence for this? That's what I'm curious about and we are after all on a political message board where these things should be able to be discussed without hostility.


Your abstract requests make no sense. China treats the Chinese far worse than the US treats the American people. In everything, from social benefits, to freedom of press, tv, news, freedom of religion, freedom of clothing, in whatever aspect you can think of an American person has a far superior personal, economic, human & political freedom compared to a Chinese person.

This is:

As for how China treats its own people compared to how we're treated in the U.K., I'm yet to see any studies that show Brits have an over 90% satisfaction rate in their government like the people in China have with theirs.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Funny how all official dictatorships come up with crazy figures that can only be laughed at.

@Rugoz , you insist on operating under the assumption that once the west loses its global leadership that things will be the same and that the only thing we would need to do would be to "protect our industries", which is incredibly naive to the point of appearing of being intentional. You simply cannot digest or imagine a world in which the west is not leading the global economy, you simply cannot imagine the experience of third-tier countries because you never had the experience of what it means to your life to live in a country like Cuba or Venezuela which is where you will be a couple of decades after China has taken over our industries one by one. You might even be under the silly presumption that these countries are shit because the issue is genetic or cultural when in fact it only has to do with them being treated with hostility by those that control the global economy, which is where we will all be when China takes over. As for the argument that Chinese products will be redirected to elsewhere, that is laughable because the west and that is not just Europe, but also the US, Canada, Latin America, Australia, New Zealand & Russia are the vast majority of buyers and there is noone else to cover the gap, neither Africa nor east Asia can make up the slack. Once the west shuts them down, they are fucked, proper, not so much for us though because we can actually redirect almost the entirety of both our imports and exports to the rest of the world & each other.
#15111496
noemon wrote:Your abstract requests make no sense.


It wasn't me making abstract claims. I'm asking what you're basing your opinion that we in the U.K. are going to be treated by China the way the U.S. treats "lower-level" countries on? To me, it looks like you're projecting Western ways of living on China or basically any other state that may be rising economically.

China treats the Chinese far worse than the US treats the Americans people. In everything, from social benefits, to freedom of press, tv, news, freedom of religion, freedom of clothing, in whatever aspect you can think of an American person has a far superior personal, economic, human & political freedom compared to a Chinese person.


Citation needed.

Funny how all official dictatorships come up with crazy figures that can only be laughed at.


I didn't realise Harvard's 17 years-long surveys on public satisfaction in China that showed an approval rate of over 93% was run by the CCP. :lol:
Last edited by skinster on 04 Aug 2020 23:57, edited 1 time in total.
#15111497
A person who requires evidence that the average American has more freedom than a Chinese person is not discussing in good faith. From the Uighurs down to regular Chinese, try going to China and calling Xi an idiot like you do with Trump and you will very likely end up in body-bag if you are a government official or a person of influence. The Chinese constitution describes China as a dictatorship.

Also what Harvard are you even talking about?

Oh, ok you edited some irrelevant study that does not actually make your point.

What you should find is a study for how satisfied you(not the subservient Chinese who never knew any better) would be living under the Chinese regime.
#15111498
noemon wrote:A person who requires evidence that the average American has more freedom than a Chinese person is not discussing in good faith.


For the third time, I'm asking what you're basing your opinion on, that China is going to treat the U.K. the way America treats weaker countries.

It's you who's not arguing in good faith.

Oh, ok you edited some irrelevant study that does not actually make your point.


It's actually pertinent to the discussion to prove your claim wrong, that China treats the Chinese awfully.

What you should find a study for is how satisfied you(not the subservient Chinese who never knew any better) would be living under the Chinese regime.


This isn't about me, again. I know Chinese people who don't view their government with the level of racism you're displaying. I guess if this is your level of debate these days, seeya.
#15111499
It is precisely about you & me. Try going there, constantly living under the fear of what will happen if you speak against the regime, living on chinese tv, radio & internet and then come back and tell us that you are 99% more satisfied with there than you were in the UK or US. :lol: Evidently you are not even following the conversation because it is indeed about me and you and you are simply here to troll. Sure seeya dontewantbeya living under a Chinese junta. ;)

Now you want to accuse me of racism as well cause you know I will trash your nonsense. That's fine as I don't actually care.
#15111501
No, it's not about you and me. A lot of people try to make everything about themselves and/or their opponents but to me that's boring and of little interest to anyone else reading. Besides, the ideology I subscribe to doesn't view and judge things based on feelings.

As for racism, to me, it is. If you were sat next to my frand Min saying this stuff, she'd consider you racist for speaking about her homeland that way. And aside from that, China is a race. But there's loads of casual racism around these days, it was more directed at Russia before. I'm not into it.

Trash? I mean if you can prove any of your claims that'd be a good start. If you think this is a game of seeing who looks the toughest, well that's sad.

Here's more on public support within China from non-Chinese sources, including in Hong Kong.


#15111505
skinster wrote:No, it's not about you and me. A lot of people try to make everything about themselves and/or their opponents but to me that's boring and of little interest to anyone else reading. Besides, the ideology I subscribe to doesn't view and judge things based on feelings.


:roll: But it is about you & me. I have been talking and talking about how we(me, you, our children, cousins and western population in general) will be if China becomes the global leader in economics, finance, military and politics. You want to pretend to discuss something else go ahead and have another conversation with someone else but that is precisely what I have been discussing all along.

As for racism, to me, it is. If you were sat next to my frand Min saying this stuff, she'd consider you racist for speaking about her homeland that way. And aside from that, China is a race. But there's loads of casual racism around these days, it was more directed at Russia before. I'm not into it.


Your Chinese friend is 100 times more racist than anyone of us in here(including our regular "Nazis") will ever be and would not bat an eyelid with anything I said in here. You simply cannot digest reality properly and looking to shoot the messenger instead cause you know what is coming next. You know and I know very well that I am correct and that is why you refuse to discuss about you & me living under a Chinese junta. Cause you never would but you do not admit to it because you are not interested in good faith but simply trolling and cheering for your favourite team which in this case is anyone anti-west.

From the angle of lower-end people, the United Sta[…]

No, that is not how water vapour works. As the […]

I am not sure if Khabib Nurmagomedov used performa[…]

To "prove" imperialism, you need to mak[…]