African-American Asphyxiated by Police in Minneapolis - Page 179 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15111455
@wat0n

1. If the person was wielding the shovel as they did in the scenario I cited, there is no risk to anyone.

2. Provide an example of a cop being charged with this law for failing to stop a violent assault or killing.

3. Your insults are not a rebuttal. My point stands.
#15111460
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

1. If the person was wielding the shovel as they did in the scenario I cited, there is no risk to anyone.


What if the person holding the shovel was resisting being taken into custody by the mental health workers?

Pants-of-dog wrote:2. Provide an example of a cop being charged with this law for failing to stop a violent assault or killing.


Already did: Amy Welsh's actions would fulfill that paragraph. Good to see you at least aren't dodging the fact that there is an explicit statutory ban on it.

Pants-of-dog wrote:3. Your insults are not a rebuttal. My point stands.


No, it does not. And indeed, it's why these cases are often sent to a grand jury for indictment.
#15111462
@wat0n

1. What if that happened?

2. Who is Welsh? Who exactly was being attacked when Welsh failed to protect them?

3. Yes, my point still stands: cops enjoy more than one double standard that allows them to kill innocent black people with impunity. If anyone else had done what Breonna Taylor’s killers did, or Elijah McClain’s killers did, they would be in jail.
#15111465
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

1. What if that happened?


If they were trained to subdue someone using a shovel as a weapon to resist being put into custody by the mental health workers? Well, if they can do that, I would mostly agree that police would probably be unnecessary. Police should be on standby but they should only interfere if the mental health workers themselves request their backup. If they can subdue the person without any backup, then the police would not need to do anything.

Pants-of-dog wrote:2. Who is Welsh? Who exactly was being attacked when Welsh failed to protect them?


The detective that did not pursue the rape inquiries.

Pants-of-dog wrote:3. Yes, my point still stands: cops enjoy more than one double standard that allows them to kill innocent black people with impunity. If anyone else had done what Breonna Taylor’s killers did, or Elijah McClain’s killers did, they would be in jail.


No, not necessarily. Particularly not if self defense was involved.
#15111466
@wat0n

1. Why should police be on standby considering the threat they pose to everyone else?

2. So this Welsh person did not actually fail to stop a physical attack. So the example is not relevant.

3. If you want to believe that cops needed lethal violence to protect themselves from Elijah McClain, go ahead. I find that ridiculous.

Nor should self-defense apply in the case of Breonna Taylor, since she was not attacking anyone and the cops attacked first.
#15111472
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

1. Why should police be on standby considering the threat they pose to everyone else?


Are you conceding mental health workers would require assistance in that shovel scenario? What about the threat posed to these workers if they cannot subdue the mentally ill person?

Pants-of-dog wrote:2. So this Welsh person did not actually fail to stop a physical attack. So the example is not relevant.


Catching the culprit would not stop further abuses?

Pants-of-dog wrote:3. If you want to believe that cops needed lethal violence to protect themselves from Elijah McClain, go ahead. I find that ridiculous.


Wouldn't necessarily say so. But the fact that flagrancy is not easy to establish would warrant allowing time for a prosecutor to investigate to prepare the indictment.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Nor should self-defense apply in the case of Breonna Taylor, since she was not attacking anyone and the cops attacked first.


The cops were enforcing a court order, though. Their presence at the property was not illegitimate or illegal from that point of view.
#15111479
@wat0n

1. I have no idea why you think I am conceding anything. Anyway, are you arguing that cops should be on standby just in case these workers cannot subdue the mentally ill person?

2. It may or may not. But that is irrelevant to whether or not this Welsh person was charged for not protecting someone from physical assault, which Welsh was not. And since Welsh was not, this example is irrelevant.

3. Are you arguing that people who admit to killing someone and have even recorded it should not be put in jail if flagrancy cannot be clearly established?

And yes, the cops set up a situation where they could attack innocent people and then argue self defence when these people legally defended themselves. In fact, that arguably fits the definition of one of the few cases where police are actually obligated to protect someone: when they deliberately create a situation where innocents are put in danger.
#15111483
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

1. I have no idea why you think I am conceding anything. Anyway, are you arguing that cops should be on standby just in case these workers cannot subdue the mentally ill person?


Yes.

Pants-of-dog wrote:2. It may or may not. But that is irrelevant to whether or not this Welsh person was charged for not protecting someone from physical assault, which Welsh was not. And since Welsh was not, this example is irrelevant.


So your gripe is basically because she "only" didn't pursue despite having physical evidence that rape had taken place, as opposed to not being at the scene and stopping the sexual assault there? :lol:

Either way, maybe it's hard to find such cases precisely because not stopping the sexual assault in that instance would be a flagrant dereliction of duty on the part of the cop?

Pants-of-dog wrote:3. Are you arguing that people who admit to killing someone and have even recorded it should not be put in jail if flagrancy cannot be clearly established?


No, and of course if a civilian killed in self defense he would admit it. Why wouldn't he?

Pants-of-dog wrote:And yes, the cops set up a situation where they could attack innocent people and then argue self defence when these people legally defended themselves. In fact, that arguably fits the definition of one of the few cases where police are actually obligated to protect someone: when they deliberately create a situation where innocents are put in danger.


Resisting arrest or a court order is not a form of self defense.
#15111524
What's the probability that a cop will shoot mentally ill persons holding "something"?
Pretty good, actually. They shot a man with his hands up, sitting down. Have you forgotten this?

Florida policeman shoots autistic man's unarmed black therapist
He can be heard telling officers he has no weapon, and that the other man is autistic and has a toy truck.

An officer then fired three times, striking Kinsey in the leg, Mr Cuevas said. No weapon was found.

Police have not released the name or race of the officer who shot him but said he had been placed on administrative leave.

The Florida Department of Law Enforcement is investigating the incident.

In an interview with the TV station from his hospital bed, Mr Kinsey said he was more worried about his patient than himself during the incident.

"As long as I've got my hands up, they're not going to shoot me. This is what I'm thinking. They're not going to shoot me," he said. "Wow, was I wrong."

Mr Kinsey is a member of the Circle of Brotherhood, a collective of African American men and community activists in south Florida.

"It could be any of us," Lyle Muhammad, a spokesman for the group, told BBC.

"Here's an individual who is going about his daily employment and doing it well, and speaking clearly and following every single instruction he was given, and he still finds himself assaulted."




In the cop's defense... he was black.

:roll:
#15111535
Godstud wrote:Pretty good, actually. They shot a man with his hands up, sitting down. Have you forgotten this?

Florida policeman shoots autistic man's unarmed black therapist
He can be heard telling officers he has no weapon, and that the other man is autistic and has a toy truck.

An officer then fired three times, striking Kinsey in the leg, Mr Cuevas said. No weapon was found.

Police have not released the name or race of the officer who shot him but said he had been placed on administrative leave.

The Florida Department of Law Enforcement is investigating the incident.

In an interview with the TV station from his hospital bed, Mr Kinsey said he was more worried about his patient than himself during the incident.

"As long as I've got my hands up, they're not going to shoot me. This is what I'm thinking. They're not going to shoot me," he said. "Wow, was I wrong."

Mr Kinsey is a member of the Circle of Brotherhood, a collective of African American men and community activists in south Florida.

"It could be any of us," Lyle Muhammad, a spokesman for the group, told BBC.

"Here's an individual who is going about his daily employment and doing it well, and speaking clearly and following every single instruction he was given, and he still finds himself assaulted."




In the cop's defense... he was black.

:roll:


Do you have any figures to back this up, or just specific cases that don't allow you to tell that? :roll:
#15111542
Are you really arguing that this doesn't happen a lot? Fuck, you racists are bold, these days, aren't you?

Fact check: Police killed more unarmed Black men in 2019 than conservative activist claimed
The Post’s data shows police fatally shot 13 unarmed Black men in 2019, five more people than Kirk claimed. Also, police fatally shot an unarmed Black woman, Atatiana Jefferson, 28, on Oct. 12 in Fort Worth Texas. But the Post's database covers only shootings. It does not include deaths caused by beating, tasering or vehicles. George Floyd’s died in police custody after a police officer knelt on his neck for several minutes, which would not have been included in the Post’s data set.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/fac ... 322455002/

Deaths From Police Harm Disproportionately Affect People of Color
There is not comprehensive government data on the topic, but an independently compiled database found that more than 1,000 people died as a result of police harm in 2019.
https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/20 ... e-of-color
#15111544
Godstud wrote:Are you really arguing that this doesn't happen a lot? Fuck, you racists are bold, these days, aren't you?

Fact check: Police killed more unarmed Black men in 2019 than conservative activist claimed
The Post’s data shows police fatally shot 13 unarmed Black men in 2019, five more people than Kirk claimed. Also, police fatally shot an unarmed Black woman, Atatiana Jefferson, 28, on Oct. 12 in Fort Worth Texas. But the Post's database covers only shootings. It does not include deaths caused by beating, tasering or vehicles. George Floyd’s died in police custody after a police officer knelt on his neck for several minutes, which would not have been included in the Post’s data set.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/fac ... 322455002/

Deaths From Police Harm Disproportionately Affect People of Color
There is not comprehensive government data on the topic, but an independently compiled database found that more than 1,000 people died as a result of police harm in 2019.
https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/20 ... e-of-color


1) Were were talking about the deaths of mentally ill people, not African Americans. How about you stick to the topic at hand or you are too stupid to read?

2) Your information still doesn't answer my question: How likely is that a mentally ill person will be killed by a cop and does it justify denying police aid to mental health workers even if they requested it?

3) Stop projecting your own racism onto others.
#15111550
Wat0n wrote:3) Stop projecting your own racism onto others.
:lol: You consistently post things that are either racist, or support systemic racism. Sorry, but that's on you.

My first post was about a mental illness incident that the police ended up shooting someone over. It was very much on topic. I know you don't want to admit that, though. :knife:
#15111553
Godstud wrote::lol: You consistently post things that are either racist, or support systemic racism. Sorry, but that's on you.


I recall I was able find racist post of yours, all "e-sarcastic" of course, while you can't do so with mine. I'm still waiting for you to back it up, but I know you won't, because you can't. Instead, projecting your own racism onto others is a lot easier, isn't it?

Godstud wrote:My first post was about a mental illness incident that the police ended up shooting someone over. It was very much on topic. I know you don't want to admit that, though. :knife:


I didn't "skip it over", I simply said that it says nothing about how likely is that mentally ill people will be shot or if it means mental health workers should not be getting police backup even if they request it. It's not my fault if as a racist you lack the ability to understand that distinction.
#15111559
Wulfschilde wrote:Oh look, George Floyd bodycam footage has finally leaked and it doesn't fit the narrative at all. Who could have seen this coming?



Image

Word of this will spread, the cop will be acquitted and most of you (if you can actually read this image or watch the video) are humiliated.


Nope, the video shows the cops acted highly aggressive from the get go. They didn't even tell him ever why he was being accosted.

They could have just come up to him and asked him about the fake bill and the stolen cigarettes. They could have told him he was no longer welcome at that convenience store and should stop using fake notes.

It's called letting him off with a warning or getting his address to send him a fine for petty theft. I mean he committed petty theft, or very low level burglary. He stole $20 of product.

Even the store clerks thought the cops made things worse.

Clerk hopefully learner his lesson, never trust the cops. Sort it out yourself, tell the dude never to come back. With a bat in your hand if needed. Obviously Mr Floyd was not acting terribly aggressive so probably didn't have a gun.
#15111564
That bodycam video is horrific. George Floyd is upset and terrified throughout and seemed genuinely scared about getting into the police car (which lessened when he begged a cop to come in with him). There was no reason why a cop put his knee on Floyd's neck even for a second, never mind chocking him to death for 9 minutes. Fuck those killer cops.
#15111566
Yeah, there are no new facts in the bodycam footage. We already know George Floyd was scared, and possibly not sober. We also know he wasn't actively resisting arrest and that neck restraints were unjustified under the Minneapolis PD's policy at the time as well.

The fact that George Floyd was panicking doesn't constitute resistance worthy of using that amount of force to subdue him.
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