Turkey & Libya agree to split Greek territory, Libya invites Turkey to send military - Page 12 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15109596
Rugoz wrote:Yes! Turkey, the beacon of liberty where people are jailed for insulting the Sultan, is going to teach the rest of the ME democracy! Oh it's so obvious, now that I've seen the light!


Having better democratic standards in your home country does no give the right to declare which countries deserve to democracies and which ones are not or which ones to be colonized.

Your words remind me of Benjamin Disraeli's "Democracy at home, imperialism abroad" approach to politics. It was perhaps a marketable idea back in mid 19th century. But, it is the zenith of intellectual astigmatism if you think that it still is in 21st century. :knife:

noemon wrote:You 're boring me and the readers with your faux quips of "wisdom", they're just fake fillers because you do not have an actual argument.


Well that's sad.

For my part, as a huge fan of absurd comedy, I find you quite entertaining. ;)

noemon wrote:First of all, it does not matter if Turkey recognises or not the UN law of the Sea. Turkey can do whatever she likes in areas under her own jurisdiction and apply or not apply that law as she sees fit within her own territory. Not recognising something does not give you entitlement to foreign territory. That is worse than being an ultra-nationalist Van.

Second, Turkey not recognising the UN law is just evidence of her being a rogue nation with no respect for international law.

Third, the UN Law of the Sea is customary international law. The concept of the EEZ including the illegal one declared by Turkey & Libya does not exist outside this customary UN law. So your hypocrisy is quite shameless, mate.


First of all, it's not a matter of recognition, it's a matter of participation. Surely, an international convention has no binding effect on countries that have not signed and ratified it. As a result, mentioned UN convention cannot form a legal basis for EEZ negotiations between Turkey and Greece, which, by the way, did not take place at all. Your self-declared jurisdiction over areas of sea between our countries is nothing more than a fantasy.

Secondly, There are a number countries around the globe that have not signed the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea of 1982. If memory is not failing me, USA is one of them.

Thirdly, You Greeks are such literatist demons as long as it serves your interest. Independent from that, you personally seem to be not well versed about United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea of 1982 at all.

Allow me to educate you a little bit.

Spain and Morocco are both signers of the mentioned convention. Their EEZ demarcation zones are shown in the top graph, where red areas belong to Spain, and blue areas belong to Morocco. Bottom graph shows how it should have been zoned in accordance to Greek fantasies. :lol:

Image

Well, I am afraid it's not gonna happen regardless of the longevity and the degree of absurdity of your Greek dramatizations.
#15109644
^This is what is a fantasy argument, the pictured anomaly is actually yours by trying to reach Libya when the map simply does not agree with you, Greek islands form a contiguous landmass across the entire coast of Asia Minor.

And this is made explicitly clear again in several of our agreements. That Greece controls all the islands except for the 2 ones specifically mentioned, Imvros & Tenedos.

While the entire world lives with their old agreements just fine and worries about other things, you want to revise treaties to change borders and claim islands & islets as yours. Converting the Agia Sophia into a Mosque was about spitting on our peace treaty that forced you to turn the Agia Sophia into a Museum and it was synchronised to be done on the anniversary of our peace treaty. Your hubris as a nation knows no end.

Turkey is the worst kind of those you criticise.

It is actually beyond belief that we are even having this conversation in this day & age.

Image
#15109651
Vanasalus wrote:Having better democratic standards in your home country does no give the right to declare which countries deserve to democracies and which ones are not or which ones to be colonized.

Your words remind me of Benjamin Disraeli's "Democracy at home, imperialism abroad" approach to politics. It was perhaps a marketable idea back in mid 19th century. But, it is the zenith of intellectual astigmatism if you think that it still is in 21st century. :knife:


You're trying to avoid the argument, again.

Erdogan is dismantling democracy at home, and you claim he's genuinely interested in advancing democracy abroad. Don't you see how silly this is?
#15109832
War Between Greece and Turkey Is Now a Real Possibility
There has never been any love lost between Turkey and Greece, but the danger of war between the two NATO members has not been this high since the Cyprus conflict more than forty-five years ago. In the past, Turkey and Greece have gone to the brink, but policies initiated by Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan may very much push the two neighbors over the edge.

by Michael Rubin

Greek and Turkish fighter jets engaged in mock dogfights this week over the Greek island of Kastellorizo, just a mile and a half from the Turkish coast, causing tourists to flee. Meanwhile, there is a growing risk that the Turkish and Greek navies will clash, hundreds of miles to the west if Turkey pushes forward with its plans to survey for gas in Greece’s exclusive economic zone. Greek officials say that all options are on the table, and German Chancellor Angela Merkel has rushed to mediate as U.S. officials remain largely absent.

There has never been any love lost between Turkey and Greece, but the danger of war between the two NATO members has not been this high since the Cyprus conflict more than forty-five years ago. In the past, Turkey and Greece have gone to the brink, but policies initiated by Turkish president Recep Tayyip Erdoğan may very much push the two neighbors over the edge.

In question are two interrelated issues: Erdoğan’s efforts to walk away from the Lausanne Treaty and his increasing desperation to find resources to bail out Turkey’s flagging economy.

The Lausanne Treaty was signed ninety-seven years ago today to tie up loose ends remaining from the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. While Kurds lament the treaty for reversing promises of statehood, the Treaty set Turkey’s borders with Bulgaria, Greece, Syria, and Iraq. Whatever flaws came with those borders, the post-Lausanne system enabled nearly a century of stability.

For reasons of ideology, economics, and ego, Erdoğan now seeks to undo the Lausanne Treaty: Ideology because Erdoğan seeks to regain control of certain Ottoman territories and change the demographics of areas outside Turkey’s borders; economics because Turkey seeks to steal resources from recognized Greek and Cypriot exclusive economic zones; and, ego, because Erdoğan wants to top Atatürk’s legacy as a military victor.

Erdoğan has already set the stage for scrapping the Lausanne Treaty. In December 2017, Erdoğan shocked a Greek audience when, on a visit to his neighbor, he floated the idea. Three months later, he suggested that the Bulgarian town of Kardzhali was within Turkey’s “spiritual boundaries,” drawing protests from Bulgaria which at the time held the European Union presidency. State-controlled Turkish newspapers have gotten in on the game showing maps of Turkey with its borders revised at the expense of neighboring states.

His latest post-Lausanne push is his most dangerous. Turkey has dispatched the seismic survey ship Oruc Reis to operate in the waters surrounding Greek islands. Such an action would be both illegal and provocative. Under terms of the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS), Greece claims territorial waters around its islands for exploration and exploitation of marine resources. Turkey is not a UNCLOS member (nor, for that matter, is the United States) but, unlike the United States, Turkey ignores customary law and stands alone in its interpretation.

In effect, Turkey seeks to revise not only international law but also potential control over the resources of hundreds of Greek islands in the Aegean Sea. While the Oruc Reis remains in port, this appears to have less to do with Turkish restrain and more with high winds that should soon dissipate. Turkey has the largest indigenous navy in the region and promises to escort the Oruc Reis; there are at least eighteen warships in the immediate vicinity. Given the stakes, Greece has no choice but to respond, hence the panic in European Union capitals.

European leaders also recognize that this is not just a dispute about the Aegean Sea. In November 2019, Turkey signed a deal with Libya establishing a joint maritime boundary between the two countries, something only possible if Turkey ignores Greek islands up to and including Crete, an island more than 25 percent larger than Delaware.

Too often U.S. and European leaders compartmentalize problems, but the extent of Erdoğan’s strategy can only be understood holistically. It is no coincide that as Erdoğan questions Turkey’s commitment to live within borders established almost a century ago and infringes on Greek and Cypriot waters, he has not only transformed the centuries-old Hagia Sofia from a museum back into a mosque, but scheduled its first formal prayers for today, the anniversary of the Lausanne Treaty. There simply is no better way for Erdoğan to show symbolically Turkey’s rejection of the post-Lausanne order.

Erdoğan, like Vladimir Putin, has long thrived by playing chicken with conflict-adverse diplomats. Everyone from U.S. Special Envoy James Jeffrey to German chancellor Angela Merkel has previously folded much stronger hands in the face of Erdoğan bluffs, hoping that by ameliorating the Turkish leader, they could calm tension in the short-term. They never recognized that Erdoğan’s bluster was a tactic and grievance feigned for negotiation advantage. Caving into an aggressor, however, seldom brings peace; it only encourages aggression. Not only amorphous concepts of credibility but very real notions of Greek sovereignty are at stake. If Erdoğan pushes forward in the Eastern Mediterranean, Greece may need to fight. Certainly, Athens should consider all options to be on the table. If such a scenario comes to pass, the United States should not be neutral, but should rather recognize publicly that Turkey is the aggressor and its claims invalid.

Together with Europe, Washington could also remind Turkey that if it seeks to void the Lausanne Treaty, then its revisions may look more like the 1920 Treaty of Sèvres than the 1718 Treaty of Passarowitz.

Source
#15109907
Turkey withdraws warships and hurries to delete a propaganda tweet posted by the Turkish Embassy in the US, that claimed the Oruç Reis drilling ship started research in Greek maritime space.

The Turkish research ship remains moored outside Antalya despite Turkey boldly announcing that from the Tuesday that just passed until August 2, that it would violate Greece’s territorial waters.

Image

The Turkish embassy accused Greece of pretending that the search area is in Greek territorial waters, in an attempt to justify its maximalist aspirations.

Hours later, the tweet was deleted and the embassy wrote that Oruç Reis had stated on July 21 that it would begin investigations.



Greek President Katerina Sakellaropoulou met with the National Defense Minister Nikolaos Panagiotopoulos to discuss the latest developments in the Aegean and the movements of the Turkish fleet.

The Defense Minister who was accompanied by the head of the military, even stressed to Sakellaroupoulou that “We have strong backs of support” pointing to Konstantinos Floros.

Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis did not hide his intense annoyance with Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s provocations. When asked by a journalist how he felt seeing the image through Hagia Sophia, he replied: “I did not feel anything less than all Greeks.”

Although Erdoğan had a cheap “victory” by converting Hagia Sophia, Turkey’s inability to penetrate Greek maritime space since Tuesday while withdrawing its warships demonstrates that Turkey is unwilling to risk war with Greece.

Source
#15109920
He is making himself look foolish. That is not at all out of character for him.

The US views Greece as a key ally in the region helping to keep the Balkans stable. And Greek people in general are popular with Americans. Trump has been seen as cozying up to Erdogan but that is not popular in the US......and this is an election year. I suspect that Trump would welcome the opportunity to back Erdogan down as a show of independence and there is zero actual risk of the US losing a battle not to mention a war with Turkey.

A US Senator this week said, "the only one who calls these Greek waters disputed is Turkey".

If I was Erdogan I would keep my head down just now. Erdogan is very unpopular in the US and so is Turkey in general. It is never a good time to piss off the US but now is a particularly bad one.
#15109922
Erdogan is desperate to hold on to power as the economy tanks. The Hagia Sophia thing is aimed at satisfying hard-core Islamists, but it's unlikely to broaden his support base. In the end, he'll have no choice but to change the constitution so he can stay in power without elections. His regime is so corrupt that he would have to leave the country if he were to lose power.
#15109930
Drlee wrote:If I was Erdogan I would keep my head down just now. Erdogan is very unpopular in the US and so is Turkey in general. It is never a good time to piss off the US but now is a particularly bad one.


If the Hagia Sophia incident is anything to go by, Erdogan not only pissed of US but also Russia. Although he's probably too small a target to attract wrath of both opposing superpowers.
#15109948
Potemkin wrote:I hope you've learned something from that stern moralistic lecture, @Vanasalus. What would we do without the Germans to set us right, eh? ;)

Scapegoating Germany is part of the problem you are trying to point to.

The EU is not at all about human solidarity or cooperation. It's just an economic expansion of Europe's national pyramid schemes that makes a handful of people (many of them German) obscenely rich.

The "war" in Libya is just another European style free-for-all to steal resources to make the same handful of Euro-oligarchs even richer. And like all the other resource free-for-alls, it will end in a murderous world war.

Europe's filthy rich - like all "rich" people - can never learn how much is enough. And when push comes to shove, they will "sacrifice" millions of their own working class slobs to get even richer.
#15109977
Patrickov wrote:Sounds like Erdogan wants to compete Xi Jinping and Donald Trump for the title of "The stupidest national leader on the Earth".

At least the latter two have a vast country or even some reason or justification that sometimes they do things serving some general public interest. What good is Erdogan doing?

I disagree with you on this. Given Erdoğan's political background, has has won almost every single election he run. He knows politics more than anyone. A man who is very qualified and experienced.

This kind of success and winning elections in a row is a very rare thing in politics. He can lecture European and US politicians.
#15110011
Istanbuller wrote:I disagree with you on this. Given Erdoğan's political background, has has won almost every single election he run. He knows politics more than anyone. A man who is very qualified and experienced.

This kind of success and winning elections in a row is a very rare thing in politics. He can lecture European and US politicians.


And in that lies the problem. In the west there are limits to how many times people can run for top offices for that being one of the main reasons. Term limits were introduced because FDR in the US after all. There are some exception like the Germans but they are not the norm. For all her good qualities, Merkel simply is in politics for far too long. And long rules breed corruption irrelevant of the competence of the leader.

Nobody disputes that Erdogan is adept at this game. The problem comes from the simple outcome of his politiking: it annoys all of the neibhours, it inshrines VICE and indulgence in to things that usually are not considered proper, etc. While it might sound great to you that Turkey is somehow rebuilding its once lost glory, in the end, it is a false belief. Modern glory and power stems mostly from your economic power which in time is backed by your high-tech well-trained military. The problem is that Turkey has neither of those, not a good economy nor a high-tech well-trained military. So for all of its barking, there is no real bite in the end. While Erdogan thinks that nobody will really call his bluff, it will be a huge catastrophy if somebody really does that. And in that lies the problem.

If its Russia then you are toast, the crazy bear is a crazy bear for a reason. If its the US then you are even more fucked because the US is not somebody who can be beaten by anybody right now. If it is the EU then your economy will be shattered in a moments notice. Not to mention countries who are smaller but are competent like Iran, Israel or SA. In a sense, most region players allow Turkey to meddle in Syria or Iraq mainly because confronting Turkey is a drag/annoying and we have obligation to uphold to some degree. But that can change rather quickly if the situation will continue to deteriorate at this pace.
#15110050
Istanbuller wrote:I disagree with you on this. Given Erdoğan's political background, has has won almost every single election he run. He knows politics more than anyone. A man who is very qualified and experienced.

This kind of success and winning elections in a row is a very rare thing in politics. He can lecture European and US politicians.



He probably cannot lecture Vladimir Putin to start with.

While most of the counterargument has already been provided by Member JohnRawls, I would like to add that it is not necessarily a good reason to piss off people of surrounding countries just because the said leader is a master in consolidating his place domestically.

Xi Jinping also has vast "support" among Chinese people (many of whom are on the lower end in intelligence or moral standards), but even China has problem pitting 1.4 billion against everyone else, so it goes without question what the Turks would fare if they do meddle with their neighbours beyond their "entitled limits".
#15110074
Istanbuller wrote:I disagree with you on this. Given Erdoğan's political background, has has won almost every single election he run. He knows politics more than anyone. A man who is very qualified and experienced.

This kind of success and winning elections in a row is a very rare thing in politics. He can lecture European and US politicians.


By closing or taking over the media, jailing journalists and his political opponents, and likely outright manipulation. We don't need any lectures from barbaric Turks.
#15110597
I don't understand where "Turkey annoys its neighbours" idea come from. It is a meaningless phrase. I don't answer to it because it lacks reality.

What is happening in Syria, Libya, eastern mediterranean is Turkey's struggle to exist. The West want to destroy Turkey's economy. Only way we excape from it is to take military actions. That is why we are in Libya now. We need energy resources, cheap energy to use. That will ease economic hardship.
#15110600
Istanbuller wrote:The West want to destroy Turkey's economy.


Turkey is a member of NATO and therefore is a member of the West. Why would the rest of the West want to destroy one of their own, especially when this said member would prove very useful in checking and balancing both Saudi Arabia and Iran, and possibly even Russia?

Oh wait, maybe that's why Erdogan is so brave... he doesn't have to worry himself being a pariah like Xi Jinping, because destroying Turkey is not beneficial at all!
#15110716
Istanbuller wrote:I don't understand where "Turkey annoys its neighbours" idea come from. It is a meaningless phrase. I don't answer to it because it lacks reality.

What is happening in Syria, Libya, eastern mediterranean is Turkey's struggle to exist. The West want to destroy Turkey's economy. Only way we excape from it is to take military actions. That is why we are in Libya now. We need energy resources, cheap energy to use. That will ease economic hardship.


Economic policies ease the economic hardship, stealing territories from other countries in order to steal their natural resources is what rogue bullies do. You have a big enough country and a big enough economy to succeed in the world economy if you actually invest on your country, its people and its resources without invading anyone and without stealing anyone's resources. The EU has more than good reason to sanction your entire economy, you have made an illegal deal with Libya that is a de facto war declaration against Greece & the EU, you are already in Cypriot and EU waters pretending to drill for gas and we still have not sanctioned you properly like we have done with Iran, Cuba or Venezuela even though none of these countries have an official(parliament sanctioned and voted) war declaration(cassus belli) against us. That is more than enough proof that, neither Greece nor the EU have wanted to harm Turkey. Turkey and that idiot Erdogan is the one causing harm just to save whatever he has left of his fragile ego & reputation.

In addition, the gas in the area is unable to save anyone's economy, there is a vast surplus of gas deposits, the price is shit and for most companies(especially your own indigenous ones, lacking the high-tech efficiency of drilling, storing, and transporting) there is no profit in it at all. The cost of you "doing", or actually learning for the first time how to do all those things on your own is higher than the potential profit you will never make. The economic report in Greece counting all the deposits(both gas & petrol) talked about something like an overall benefit to the economy of around 40 billion over 25 years and that was done back in 2011-12 when prices were better and there was both more demand and less supply. That number is still pocket change especially in 25 years time and that is counting all our deposits, the ones near Italy, the ones in Crete and the smaller ones near Turkey.

You have gotten more money from the EU on a yearly basis and for no reason whatsoever, you are the only country in the world looking for a handout, to support the refugees from a neighbouring country that you have actually invaded and you are asking the EU to pay the bill of your invasion even though she has not invaded anybody and the refugees being in your country is not the EU's fault at all. Despite that the EU has paid you but your idiot dictator has used even this for his own petty political games and has burned the money & the deal in the process.

And please France or the UK are not the EU, she is just France, French actions in Syria do not magically transmit responsibility to the rest of the EU countries to foot the bill for the refugees you created all on your own, especially when the vast majority of the EU was opposed to the war in Syria and even more especially when France has departed Syria for years now while you are still there playing call of duty.

Turkey's aggression is simply for Erdogan's ego and nothing else.
#15110782
Istanbuller wrote:The West want to destroy Turkey's economy.


The EU wants a stable, prosperous and democratic Turkey because that's good for the EU. That's why the EU has pampered Turkey beyond any good sense, but there's a limit. If Turkey turns into a rogue state, the EU will have to sanction Turkey.

For the time being, it looks like Turkey has pulled back from the brink by halting drilling in Greek waters. Erdogan may be batshit crazy, but he's not so mad as to believe he can win a trade war against the EU and most of the rest of the world.

What is happening in Syria, Libya, eastern mediterranean is Turkey's struggle to exist.


It's scary how ordinary Turks seem to have bought into the imperialist neo-Ottoman narrative. Imperialist overreach will definitely kill the Turkish economy. Better get ready for some serious belt-tightening as the Lira continues it's free fall. And always remember, it's all self-inflicted. Nobody wanted you to go down this road.
#15112012
Greek EEZ is laughable and unworkable. They are trying to steal almost all Turkish coastal from Aegean sea to Mediterranean sea. Both in theory and practice, Turkey won't allow such provocation to be successful. This conflict will result in Cyprus and islands on Aegean sea returned back to Turkey.

Turkish-Libyan EEZ is the one first declared and submitted to United Nations. Any possible EEZ overlapping it cannot be legal. So Greek-Egyptian EEZ is born dead.
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