[QatzelOk]

Ya, that's all Canada is

You make some good points and then muck it up with this nonsensical truth claim.

I am talking about a brand, not a piece of land that has existed far longer than the brand "Canada."

And that brand was formed through genocide and racism, just like brand USA.

If you re-read the OP, you will see that the birth-through-racism of Canada-USA runs throughout the thread, and my theory throughtout it is that killin' for'ners is not just some unfortunate tick these countries have, it is their primary schtick.

Schtick, not tick.

[QatzelOk]

"I fear that a balance may not exist between America’s material greatness and the quality of its people. And I fear that the wheel of life will have turned and the book of time will have closed and America will have added nothing, or next to nothing, to the account of morals that distinguishes man from object, and indeed, mankind from animals."

- Sayyid Qutb, "The America I Have Seen"

Here, famous Egyptian philosopher (and Muslim Brotherhood inspiration) Sayyid Qutb uses very polite language to say that the USA has very little to contribute to the culture and thinking of mankind.

He had just come back to Egypt from the USA, where he travelled extensively, did his MA, and spent time at many universities in many states.

So he knew what he was talking about.

[Patrickov]

I fear that a balance may not exist between America’s material greatness and the quality of its people.

As seen in China and Hong Kong, I can assure you that there isn't. If it is found in the United States it is surely not alone.

[Potemkin]

I fear that a balance may not exist between America’s material greatness and the quality of its people. And I fear that the wheel of life will have turned and the book of time will have closed and America will have added nothing, or next to nothing, to the account of morals that distinguishes man from object, and indeed, mankind from animals.

Qutb was horrified by the extreme materialism and hedonism he saw in American society in the 1950s. The lack of any historical awareness in American culture has the effect of revealing in stark relief the crass self-interest and hedonism of most of its population. European people are just as crassly self-interested and hedonistic as the Americans, of course, but it is usually covered over by a veneer of historical culture, and so is less obvious. Qutb could see that this crass society of atomised, ignorant and hedonistic individuals was going to reshape the whole world in its own image, and he therefore made it his life's work to try to prevent this from happening. After all, if humans value only material self-interest, then in what way are we anything more than just clever monkeys?

[Political Interest]

Qutb was horrified by the extreme materialism and hedonism he saw in American society in the 1950s. The lack of any historical awareness in American culture has the effect of revealing in stark relief the crass self-interest and hedonism of most of its population. European people are just as crassly self-interested and hedonistic as the Americans, of course, but it is usually covered over by a veneer of historical culture, and so is less obvious. Qutb could see that this crass society of atomised, ignorant and hedonistic individuals was going to reshape the whole world in its own image, and he therefore made it his life's work to try to prevent this from happening. After all, if humans value only material self-interest, then in what way are we anything more than just clever monkeys?

In Europe it was not always so. German culture in the early 20th century was probably as conservative and in many respects just as collectivist as a lot of Asian cultures are now, and even back in the times Qutb was writing. It seems he experienced the most extreme iteration of Western culture and could not handle it. Perhaps if he had gone to France he would have had a better experience.

Even the United Kingdom was far more conservative in the past.

It is true what you say that the populations have become decadent and hedonistic but that is only because the culture has evolved in such a way as to allow this. It is not an immutable characteristic of these peoples and cultures. If such traits were indeed immutable, if hedonism and materialism, non-romanticism are inextricable parts of the Western persona there would be no hope and how can we accept that there is no hope?

Having said that, there is an element of fundamental silliness in Western cultures that leads the people of the West time and time again down roads of danger. It is surely no surprise that all of the lunacies of some latest political madness have always come from Europe and America. Fascism, communism and now these post-modern cults of wokeness and Alt-Right are all products of Western minds.

What is it about Westerners that leads them to be so easily swayed by these developments? Other civilisations were not immune to political and cultural crazes, although in Asia the social fabric was far less altered by communism and fascism than it was in Europe. The choice of political experimentation in the global south was based on material conditions whereas in the West of the 21st century it is based on what precisely?

[QatzelOk]

After all, if humans value only material self-interest, then in what way are we anything more than just clever monkeys?

Actually, I don't think monkeys are able to take their materialism to the same level as humans. They don't have texts, propaganda, marketing, advertising, PR, etc.

This is where I disagree with Qutb. He scapegoats the animal world for what are, I believe, the problems caused by civilization and social hierarchy.

Other than that, I find Qutb's texts very inspiring.

[Potemkin]

Actually, I don't think monkeys are able to take their materialism to the same level as humans. They don't have texts, propaganda, marketing, advertising, PR, etc.

I assume you mean that they are not alienated from their own nature in the same way that humans can be. Language, after all, is probably the original form of alienation. To name something is, in a sense, to make it other. Adam named the animals in Eden in order to gain mastery over them by othering them, separating himself from them by giving them their 'names'.

This is where I disagree with Qutb. He scapegoats the animal world for what are, I believe, the problems caused by civilization and social hierarchy.

Almost everybody believes that humans should be alienated from the animal kingdom. The only question is what form that alienation should take. After all, even the tree-huggers who want us to be the 'custodians' of the natural world are just as alienated from the natural world as any rapacious industrialist, but they are alienated from it in a different way (in my view, a more positive way). No animal would think of itself as a 'custodian' of the natural world. They just want to eat and avoid being eaten. Lol.

Other than that, I find Qutb's texts very inspiring.

He had an interesting perspective on Western society. He had enough insight to be truly horrified by it.

[annatar1914]

In Europe it was not always so. German culture in the early 20th century was probably as conservative and in many respects just as collectivist as a lot of Asian cultures are now, and even back in the times Qutb was writing. It seems he experienced the most extreme iteration of Western culture and could not handle it. Perhaps if he had gone to France he would have had a better experience.

Even the United Kingdom was far more conservative in the past.

It is true what you say that the populations have become decadent and hedonistic but that is only because the culture has evolved in such a way as to allow this. It is not an immutable characteristic of these peoples and cultures. If such traits were indeed immutable, if hedonism and materialism, non-romanticism are inextricable parts of the Western persona there would be no hope and how can we accept that there is no hope?

Having said that, there is an element of fundamental silliness in Western cultures that leads the people of the West time and time again down roads of danger. It is surely no surprise that all of the lunacies of some latest political madness have always come from Europe and America. Fascism, communism and now these post-modern cults of wokeness and Alt-Right are all products of Western minds.

What is it about Westerners that leads them to be so easily swayed by these developments? Other civilisations were not immune to political and cultural crazes, although in Asia the social fabric was far less altered by communism and fascism than it was in Europe. The choice of political experimentation in the global south was based on material conditions whereas in the West of the 21st century it is based on what precisely?

@Political Interest

The loss of God, I think. Although I cannot exclude hope from the equation that this will not remain so, this loss. And by ''loss'', I mean a culture that effectively refuses God by making itself ''gods'' individually speaking...

Today I read where at least 200,000 bikers are doing their annual rally in Strugis South Dakota. Most of these people are very Libertarian/Libertine in philosophy, almost Anarchist and very hyper-individualistic and independence minded. Now, they're doing this in the midst of a pandemic. Chances are most of them will be fine, same as the rioters and protestors, afterwards. And even most of the people they know will be fine. All along the political spectrum in America, the whole spectrum of people are not the sort to be confined, wear masks, be told what to do at all. Again, most will be fine and get through all this, along with America in general. In a year or two, it'll be as if none of this happened at all.

But what will have been actually learned from the experience? That Americans (''Left'' or ''Right'') can just do whatever the hell they want anytime they want without personal consequences?

Another note; last night I read where President Trump remarked that he'd been called a ''Socialist'' for some of his executive orders recently... Donald Trump the Capitalist down to the very core of his being, a ''Socialist''... I mean, I believe sincerely that he had that response from some circles considering some of the ''Conservatives'' (really Libertarians, almost Anarchists) in American life.

This is Barbarism.

[Political Interest]

The loss of God, I think. Although I cannot exclude hope from the equation that this will not remain so, this loss. And by ''loss'', I mean a culture that effectively refuses God by making itself ''gods'' individually speaking...

Today I read where at least 200,000 bikers are doing their annual rally in Strugis South Dakota. Most of these people are very Libertarian/Libertine in philosophy, almost Anarchist and very hyper-individualistic and independence minded. Now, they're doing this in the midst of a pandemic. Chances are most of them will be fine, same as the rioters and protestors, afterwards. And even most of the people they know will be fine. All along the political spectrum in America, the whole spectrum of people are not the sort to be confined, wear masks, be told what to do at all. Again, most will be fine and get through all this, along with America in general. In a year or two, it'll be as if none of this happened at all.

But what will have been actually learned from the experience? That Americans (''Left'' or ''Right'') can just do whatever the hell they want anytime they want without personal consequences?

Another note; last night I read where President Trump remarked that he'd been called a ''Socialist'' for some of his executive orders recently... Donald Trump the Capitalist down to the very core of his being, a ''Socialist''... I mean, I believe sincerely that he had that response from some circles considering some of the ''Conservatives'' (really Libertarians, almost Anarchists) in American life.

This is Barbarism.

All of this extends from the fundamental principle which we cannot criticise, absolute personal freedom and individual liberty. These are for Westerners absolutely sacrosanct. If you want to find any way to offend a Westerner you can find no surer way than to question or in any way cast doubt on his right to complete individual autonomy. There are few other ideals that seem to elicit this type of protective jealousy among Europeans and Americans today.

The principle of non-coercion and the right to complete individual liberty seem for Westerners to be more sacred than even religion.

How dare anyone tell anyone what to do or limit their freedom.

This is probably why the West was able to stop believing in religion to such an extent as it did, because the culture of hyper autonomy and ultra liberalism allowed for the development of alternatives not possible in other civilisations. It also explains why strange political cults started to develop like those of fascism, communism, wokism and the Alt-Right, because the culture of absolute freedom allowed for the formation of these ideological currents. These ideas are in themselves quite anti-liberal and so the end result is that liberalism is actually working against itself. The more society tries to dissolve and deconstruct itself the less it will be able to function in the long term.

When you have a situation where people say whatever they want and do whatever they want you will have severe problems.

And the most surreal part of this is that in spite of such extensive liberalism there is still tremendous horizontal pressure from peers. You are free from the government but not really free from the society and what it expects of you. Individually autonomous but still subject to the collective morality, which exists in all societies. Because the collective morality is so malleable and impermanent it can be influenced by all sorts of ideological currents, many of which are highly coercive if they are not in line with what you as an individual person believe.

A real fascinating question is why in spite of having the free choice people still choose materialism, cynicism and individualism. Are people merely content with a life of eating, sleeping, buying and working?

[annatar1914]

A real fascinating question is why in spite of having the free choice people still choose materialism, cynicism and individualism. Are people merely content with a life of eating, sleeping, buying and working?

@Political Interest

I wouldn't say that people are happy with it I don't think so, but they chose to be this way because they prefer the illusion of absolute autonomy over true freedom. Material things and persons don't give us happiness and contentment of themselves, but this has been the siren song of the Western world for some time now.

[QatzelOk]

Almost everybody believes that humans should be alienated from the animal kingdom.

I have never seen a poll regarding this statistic you have thrown out. Also, "almost everyone" seems to mean that - even people who have never contemplated the idea of "alienation from nature" - would support it if you explained what it meant to them. I don't think this is true. Alienation from nature inevitably means extinction.

The only question is what form that alienation should take. After all, even the tree-huggers who want us to be the 'custodians' of the natural world are just as alienated from the natural world as any rapacious industrialist, but they are alienated from it in a different way (in my view, a more positive way). No animal would think of itself as a 'custodian' of the natural world. They just want to eat and avoid being eaten.

Yes, tree-huggers are alienated. Likewise, Rousseau was perverted by European practices and perversions caused by alienation from nature.

That tree-huggers are alienated is because they grow up in alienating cultures. Rousseau likewise had no choice in "what he was" - though he seems to have recognized how un-ideal his stuck-up European upbringing was.

But to claim that "everyone wants this" is an unsubstantiated claim about "everyone" wanting something that they currently don't even understand.

[Political Interest]

I wouldn't say that people are happy with it I don't think so, but they chose to be this way because they prefer the illusion of absolute autonomy over true freedom. Material things and persons don't give us happiness and contentment of themselves, but this has been the siren song of the Western world for some time now.

And it is the embrace of false comfort, the lack of meaning in day to day life, that is leading the West into severe crisis.

People do not want to think and so the thinking is done for them by pseudo intellectuals and agitators.

The abundance of social media and the free access to information on the internet has made everyone into their own expert. I freely confess that I am a pseudo intellectual and hold no pretension of being any sort of authority.

Politics has become entertainment and it's just another type of consumerism.

Our intellectual life in the West has become just as consumerist and vapid as the consumption of goods. There is too much information but a complete absence of deep thought over it or the deeper issues of life.

I think this will cause us severe problems in the next 40 years.

It would be interesting to know what Qutb would have made of this intellectual consumerism we have in the 2010s that they didn't really have back in the 1950s and 1960s. Well, that is not strictly speaking true, they most certainly did have it but it was confined to the halls of academia. Even in the 2000s I don't remember people being as politicised as they are now.

[annatar1914]

And it is the embrace of false comfort, the lack of meaning in day to day life, that is leading the West into severe crisis.

People do not want to think and so the thinking is done for them by pseudo intellectuals and agitators.

The abundance of social media and the free access to information on the internet has made everyone into their own expert. I freely confess that I am a pseudo intellectual and hold no pretension of being any sort of authority.

Politics has become entertainment and it's just another type of consumerism.

Our intellectual life in the West has become just as consumerist and vapid as the consumption of goods. There is too much information but a complete absence of deep thought over it or the deeper issues of life.

I think this will cause us severe problems in the next 40 years.

It would be interesting to know what Qutb would have made of this intellectual consumerism we have in the 2010s that they didn't really have back in the 1950s and 1960s. Well, that is not strictly speaking true, they most certainly did have it but it was confined to the halls of academia. Even in the 2000s I don't remember people being as politicised as they are now.

I think it comes down to belief systems, both formal and real. If you live and act as if this life is the only one, then the affairs and cares of this life are supremely important, instead of a testing ground for eternity. And so ''politics'' the ''affairs of the Polis'', take first place because the effects the decisions made there effect this earthly life.

[skinster]

[Political Interest]

I think it comes down to belief systems, both formal and real. If you live and act as if this life is the only one, then the affairs and cares of this life are supremely important, instead of a testing ground for eternity. And so ''politics'' the ''affairs of the Polis'', take first place because the effects the decisions made there effect this earthly life.

That is why Western politics of our contemporary era became vapid and boring, it's all about counting coins, deprived of all substance and ideological content.

An ideology is not merely about where to spend the money but it should be a world view in which the whole of society participate and work towards. Perhaps this is the real issue of the West today, a lack of a real animating ideology. I believe Slavoj Zizek has said that the West needs some type of collective activity to save itself and he is also a critic of the New Left. I think he may even favour a return of Stalinist leftism as a solution to Western problems although I can't confirm this. I am not very well versed in his thought and work.

However there is a danger that ideology is a false ideology. Communism and fascism, these were false ideas.

What we need is a new ideology that is not incompatible with the conscience of mankind and which does not produce bloodshed.

Religion could serve that purpose, but I think religion is not to be cheapened in such a way.

There are still normal Westerners, spiritual honourable and traditional people. I trust that a day will come where the West will get tired of all this. I really do hope for it, for hope is always last to die and man cannot live without hope.

Onward and upward for the highest good! This is the only way, brother!

[annatar1914]

That is why Western politics of our contemporary era became vapid and boring, it's all about counting coins, deprived of all substance and ideological content.

An ideology is not merely about where to spend the money but it should be a world view in which the whole of society participate and work towards. Perhaps this is the real issue of the West today, a lack of a real animating ideology. I believe Slavoj Zizek has said that the West needs some type of collective activity to save itself and he is also a critic of the New Left. I think he may even favour a return of Stalinist leftism as a solution to Western problems although I can't confirm this. I am not very well versed in his thought and work.

However there is a danger that ideology is a false ideology. Communism and fascism, these were false ideas.

What we need is a new ideology that is not incompatible with the conscience of mankind and which does not produce bloodshed.

Religion could serve that purpose, but I think religion is not to be cheapened in such a way.

There are still normal Westerners, spiritual honourable and traditional people. I trust that a day will come where the West will get tired of all this. I really do hope for it, for hope is always last to die and man cannot live without hope.

Onward and upward for the highest good! This is the only way, brother!

@Political Interest , I wholeheartedly agree with everything you've said my friend.

My own personal ideology is rather idiosyncratic as you can probably guess, I try to inform my way of life including my politics with the insights of my religion, although politics in the modern sense does rather cheapen it.

I am a Socialist of sorts, and definitely a Statist, ideally the State in my conception would at the very least not hinder it's citizen's greater good spiritually. I'm a proponent of Soviet Democracy;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_democracy

Because it binds delegates to vote by what their electoral district's Council wishes, subjecting them to recall if they don't. And aside from that, it still offers a strong government

And I'm interested in the idea of voting by ''Borda Count'';

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borda_count

Because it really does seem to be more consensus based regarding electing candidates rather than simple majority.

Anyway, at root these are all just tools available, what must be inspired and elevated is the inner man of the West.

[QatzelOk]

I think it comes down to belief systems, both formal and real. If you live and act as if this life is the only one, then the affairs and cares of this life are supremely important, instead of a testing ground for eternity. And so ''politics'' the ''affairs of the Polis'', take first place because the effects the decisions made there effect this earthly life.

Exactly.

The early colonists realized that "this life" isn't as important as the next one. So they killed the people who had a different religion than they did and industrialized the shit out of the continent until it was almost barren.

Eternity seems to be some kind of hate potion in our countries, but it allowed many generations of North Americans to shit in the beds of their childrens' futures.

[annatar1914]

Exactly.

The early colonists realized that "this life" isn't as important as the next one. So they killed the people who had a different religion than they did and industrialized the shit out of the continent until it was almost barren.

Eternity seems to be some kind of hate potion in our countries, but it allowed many generations of North Americans to shit in the beds of their childrens' futures.

Something of an unfortunate anti-theist response, because fact is many of the Colonists were men and women of a very this-worldly practical and hard eyed religion; Calvinism. And thus assured of eternal life in the next life they thought by predestination, they often diligently sought signs of God's favor in this world, like earthly prosperity and wealth.

But to condemn all of the Colonists for this thinking is wrong, because not all believed this way. People colonize and displace, it's what they do even if it isn't entirely right.

[skinster]

Not entirely right? Which parts are right?

What we need is a new ideology that is not incompatible with the conscience of mankind and which does not produce bloodshed.

Religion could serve that purpose, but I think religion is not to be cheapened in such a way.

Which religion are you talking about that hasn't produced much bloodshed?

[Sivad]

"I fear that a balance may not exist between America’s material greatness and the quality of its people. And I fear that the wheel of life will have turned and the book of time will have closed and America will have added nothing, or next to nothing, to the account of morals that distinguishes man from object, and indeed, mankind from animals."

- Sayyid Qutb

yeah, because it's the retarded islamo hicks that are trailblazing mankind's moral progress.