Should COVID vaccine be mandatory? - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Should COVID vaccine be mandatory?

Yes
13
42%
No
14
45%
Other
4
13%
#15112211
Drlee wrote:It is a very good thing. I would be thrilled by a vaccine which is that effective. Particularly if you understand what the word "effective" means to an epidemiologist as opposed to a doctor.

It is possible, and even likely that a vaccine that is 60% effective at giving immunity from infection would drop the basic reproduction rate to near or below 1 in which case the disease would be quite manageable.

Further. If you can immunize the most vulnerable first you can drop the CFR dramatically.

Then there is the case of partial immunity. It could be that this vaccine may not protect everyone but that some of the 40% who do not get absolute immunity may still experience a decreased severity of infection should they be exposed. This would be a good thing too.


Right, if "60% effective" means that there's a 60% probability that it immunizes the patient, then it would essentially give us herd immunity in what is probably the safest way conceivable. IIRC the R0 is 2-6 and seems to be closer to 2.5, interestingly, if the vaccine is 60% effective then vaccinating everyone would be just enough to end the pandemic since the pandemic would end if 60% if the population is exposed. If the R0 is higher, it would still leave us a lot closer to the herd immunity status. If as you say it means a partial immunity then the disease would be a lot milder and more manageable from a public health perspective.

If the virus mutates so quickly as to necessitate a seasonal vaccine, then the new SARS-COV2 vaccines should also be easier to develop, just like the flu ones are.

And serious secondary effects of vaccines are rare. Among these, I think the most common concern are allergic reactions. Well:

CDC wrote:Although allergic reactions are a common concern for vaccine providers, these reactions are uncommon and anaphylaxis following vaccines is rare, occurring at a rate of approximately one per million doses for many vaccines (5). Epinephrine and equipment for managing an airway should be available for immediate use (6). The best practice to prevent allergic reactions is to identify individuals at increased risk by obtaining a history of allergy to previous vaccinations and vaccine components that might indicate an underlying hypersensitivity. Acute allergic reactions following vaccinations might be caused by the vaccine antigen, residual animal protein, antimicrobial agents, preservatives, stabilizers, or other vaccine components (7). Components of each vaccine are listed in the respective package insert. An extensive list of vaccine components and their use, as well as the vaccines that contain each component, has been published (8) and also is available from CDC pdf icon[4 pages]. Additional informationexternal icon and tables of potential allergens in different vaccines are available. The allergens identified in the history can be cross-checked against the allergens identified in package inserts.


So if everyone in the US was vaccinated, you should expect that 330 or so people would get a severe/life-threatening allergic reaction. Sounds like a lot less than the people who would die without a vaccine or as a result of lockdowns (yes, these are costly too and no one denies that. The whole point of a vaccine is to lift restrictions safely). Let alone those who face serious complications from the disease or lockdowns (including socioeconomic ones like getting fired), who would be a lot more than those who die.

More common, non-serious (but annoying) complications of common vaccines can be found here:

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm

Having a sore arm or some cough, fever or other mild COVID-19 symptoms in exchange for getting my life back seems like a nice trade off. So why the hell wouldn't one take it?
#15112222
@MistyTiger I never meant to insult your mother's education. I merely meant to imply that it's not relevant if she doesn't have good knowledge on the subject of vaccines, and you seemed to indicate that this was not the case.

Even MSM is guilty of throwing some pretty shoddy science out there for people to absorb. I try to find actual medical sources for information. They aren't trying to "spin" things or make an article more interesting.

Skepticism is always good, but where it comes to vaccines, it becomes detrimental when one is so skeptical that they might not get one. I worry that many people's skepticism has turned to fear. :hmm: Fear is unreasoning.
#15112371
Godstud wrote:@MistyTiger I never meant to insult your mother's education. I merely meant to imply that it's not relevant if she doesn't have good knowledge on the subject of vaccines, and you seemed to indicate that this was not the case.

Even MSM is guilty of throwing some pretty shoddy science out there for people to absorb. I try to find actual medical sources for information. They aren't trying to "spin" things or make an article more interesting.

Skepticism is always good, but where it comes to vaccines, it becomes detrimental when one is so skeptical that they might not get one. I worry that many people's skepticism has turned to fear. :hmm: Fear is unreasoning.


I mentioned my mother's education because you were assuming that ignorance was the reason for my fear and my family's uncertainty. But you know, there is a lot of uncertainty in the medical world. Medical professionals cannot always give definite answers or decisive statements. Doctors cannot cure every sick patient or rid the world of all the awful diseases and disorders. My mother tells me about medical mistakes and errors. We know a woman who keeps letting doctors operate on her to try to improve her health, yet she does not feel better.

News sources are consulting medical sources like the NiH or CDC. It is only right that they caution the public that a vaccine might not be ready in January. I read a variety of sources and I can look beyond the "spin", I have done plenty of writing in my past so I understand writer techniques very well. And the term "warp speed" is not a scientific term, so I would be wary of vaccines from that operation. Further, products from a rush job might not be created well. I do not want to be a guinea pig for science even if it means I am not socially responsible. I am careful with what I put in my mouth, it is my body. If I ruin my body then I might as well be dead.

My skepticism concerns everything in life. I learned at a young age that it is not in my best interest to trust easily. My distrust protects me from being fooled by those who are pushing their agendas. If I feel the vaccine is stable and adequate, I might get one after seeing my doctor. But I do not want to be one of the first to dive into the pool without much understanding or knowledge of what I just ingested. Full disclosure is very important to me. I do not just do something due to pressure or because everyone else is doing it. I hope they closely monitor and chronicle the effects of the vaccines before saying it is ok for all to get vaccinated. I am young and not in the most vulnerable population so I will not be among the first in line for the vaccine anyhow. There is the possibility that a vaccine could get recalled.

Fear is a natural response to new or different situations. Fear itself is not bad. Irrationality caused by fear is bad. I choose what to do based on the available information.
#15112395
CBS News Poll Says 70% Of Americans Would Wait To Get COVID-19 Vaccine, Or Wouldn’t Get One At All

NEW YORK (CBSNewYork) — Some encouraging news and some sobering news about a COVID-19 vaccine, when might one be available – and will people actually take it?

Virtually since the beginning of the pandemic five months ago, much of America has hung its hopes on a coronavirus vaccine to beat the pandemic and get back to some version of normal life. And while some vaccine candidates may be getting closer, a new poll questions whether people will even take a COVID-19 vaccine.

With the first volunteer receiving a shot, Moderna officially began the phase three safety and efficacy trial of its novel RNA-based vaccine. The plan is to enroll 30,000 such volunteers, half of which will get a placebo and complete the trial in just a few months, rather than the several years such trials normally require.

But even if a safe and effective vaccine is available by year end and it was free, a new CBS News poll suggests there may not be takers, at least at first. The poll found that more than two third of Americans, 70%, would either wait to see what happens when other got the shot or would never get one. Fewer than one in three would get the vaccine right away.

Those attitudes were reflected in New Yorkers CBS2 asked on Monday.

“I don’t believe in vaccines. Never took ’em. I never even took a flu vaccine. That’s the way I grew up, I guess. Culturally, it’s the way I am,” one man said.

“Not for me,” one woman said.

“I just work out, you know. Stay inside, stay safe. Eat healthy, be healthy. Live a good healthy life, you’ll be all right,” one man said.

“I don’t believe in vaccines or immunizations,” one woman said.

Curiously, only 27% of those most at risk for COVID-19, Americans over age 65, would get the vaccine right away. And liberals are more than twice as likely to get one immediately than conservatives.

Seems there’s a lot of convincing to be done if a COVID-19 vaccine is going to save the economy.


Poll: 35% of Americans, most Republicans would reject COVID-19 vaccine

Politically, 81% of Democrats, 59% of independents and 47% of Republicans said they would take a vaccine, if one were available. File Photo by Airman 1st Class Matthew Lotz/U.S. Air Force/UPI

Aug. 7 (UPI) -- More than one-third of U.S. adults and a majority of Republicans would not receive a free, government-approved COVID-19 vaccine if one was presently available, a Gallup survey showed Friday.

According to the poll, 35% of U.S. adults said they would not get the vaccine, compared to 65% who said they would. The share was the exact same 65/35 split among both men and women.

The age group that expressed the most skepticism about a vaccine were those between 50 and 64 years old (59%) -- and the group that was most accepting of a vaccine were between 18 and 29 (76%).

By race, the survey found that two-thirds of White Americans (67%) and 59% of non-Whites would take the vaccine, despite the virus more heavily affecting the Black and Latino communities.

"Such resistance is not unprecedented," Gallup wrote. "When Gallup in 1954 asked U.S. adults who had heard or read about the then-new polio vaccine, 'Would you like to take this new polio vaccine (to keep people from getting polio) yourself?' just 60% said they would, while 31% said they would not.

"So far, the willingness to adopt a new vaccine looks similar today. Leaders in favor of a vaccine may be well-served to study what caused the public to ultimately adopt earlier vaccines as they consider how best to influence Americans to take advantage of such an option now."





Bill Gates, who is not a doctor and who had a personal and ongoing relationship with convicted sex trafficker of underage white girls for some reason, was talking about a coronavirus almost immediately after all of the retarded random restrictions were forced onto the American public.

Why are men who aren't doctors and who flew on the private jet of a convicted sex trafficker even part of the national conversation about the coronavirus and vaccines?

I don't think that the vaccine will be mandated by the government in the US. Maybe it will be in Australia, where they are arresting people for leaving their homes, but in the US they already have plans to coerce people to get a vaccine using social pressure (mask Karens).

That is, of course, after they ban all the people who oppose a coronavirus vaccine from social media.

COVID-19 Vaccine Messaging, Part 1

This study tests different messages about vaccinating against COVID-19 once the vaccine becomes available. Participants are randomized to 1 of 12 arms, with one control arm and one baseline arm. We will compare the reported willingness to get a COVID-19 vaccine at 3 and 6 months of it becoming available between the 10 intervention arms to the 2 control arms.


Here are a few examples of the coercive messaging:


Experimental: Trust in science
Experimental message arm.

Experimental message arm.
Other: Trust in science message
1/15 of the sample will be assigned to this message about how getting vaccinated against COVID-19 is the most effective way of protecting one's community. Vaccination is backed by science. If one doesn't get vaccinated that means that one doesn't understand how infections are spread or who ignores science.

Experimental: Economic benefit
Experimental message arm.

Other: Economic benefit message
1/15 of the sample will be assigned to this group, which is a message about how COVID-19 is wreaking havoc on the economy and the only way to strengthen the economy is to work together to get enough people vaccinated.

Experimental: Social pressure- embarrassment
Experimental message arm.

Other: Embarrassment message
1/15 of the sample will be assigned to this message. The message is about the danger that COVID-19 presents to the health of one's family and community. The best way to protect them is by getting vaccinated and by working together to make sure that enough people get vaccinated. Then it asks the participant to imagine the embarrassment they will feel if they don't get vaccinated and spread the disease.

Experimental: Social pressure- anger
Experimental message arm.

Other: Anger message
1/15 of the sample will be assigned to this message. The message is about the danger that COVID-19 presents to the health of one's family and community. The best way to protect them is by getting vaccinated and by working together to make sure that enough people get vaccinated. Then it asks the participant to imagine the anger they will feel if they don't get vaccinated and spread the disease.



US Government & Yale Hold Clinical Trials On How Best to ‘Persuade’ Americans to Take COVID-19 Vaccine

What Happened: The US Federal government in collaboration with Yale University held clinical trials to determine what the best messaging would be to persuade Americans to take the COVID-19 vaccine when it is ready. The news of this study does show an interest in finding the best way to persuade people into an ideal decision for the Federal government, and likely vaccine makers, and it also shows that a mandatory vaccine campaign may still be the plan B down the road, as opposed to plan A.

The official title of the trial is, “Persuasive Messages for COVID-19 Vaccine Uptake: a Randomized Controlled Trial, Part 1.”

The study essentially looks at the best possible messaging that can be used on Americans, ranging from expressing vaccine benefits, to using messaging about economic impact, making someone feel guilty or embarrassed for not taking the vaccine, and so on.

The study looked at around 4000 participants aged 18 years and up, all of whom had to be US residents of course.

The various ‘arms’ used in the study when it came to messaging were as follows:

Other: Control message
Other: Baseline message
Other: Personal freedom message
Other: Economic freedom message
Other: Self-interest message
Other: Community interest message
Other: Economic benefit message
Other: Guilt message
Other: Embarrassment message
Other: Anger message
Other: Trust in science message
Other: Not bravery message


Interestingly, the study also looked at various social elements involved in vaccination, see below:

Primary Outcome Measures :

Intention to get COVID-19 vaccine [ Time Frame: Immediately after intervention, in the same survey in which the intervention message is provided ]This is a self reported measure, immediately after the intervention message, of the likelihood of getting a COVID-19 vaccination within 3 months and then 6 months of it becoming available. During analysis, responses among those assigned to different intervention messages will be compared to those in the control group.

Secondary Outcome Measures :

1. Vaccine confidence scale [ Time Frame: Immediately after intervention, in the same survey in which the intervention message is provided ]This is a validated scale. This scale will be used to assess the impact of the messages on vaccine confidence. (Outcome assessed only for the half of the sample that answers these items post-treatment)

2. Persuade others item [ Time Frame: Immediately after intervention, in the same survey in which the intervention message is provided ]This is a measure of a willingness to persuade others to take the COVID-19 vaccine.

3. Fear of those who have not been vaccinated [ Time Frame: Immediately after intervention, in the same survey in which the intervention message is provided ]This is a measure of a comfort with an unvaccinated individual visiting an elderly friend after a vaccine becomes available

4. Social judgment of those who do not vaccinate [ Time Frame: Immediately after intervention, in the same survey in which the intervention message is provided ]This is a scale composed of 4 items measuring the trustworthiness, selfishness, likeableness, and competence of those who choose not to get vaccinated after a vaccine becomes available.


Why This Matters: As more credible information about vaccinations and their associated dangers circles the internet and informs people, their choice to not vaccinate in certain situations is increasing. As noted by The World Health Organization, even doctors are starting to question and have a lack of trust in vaccines. Because of all of this, I believe pharmaceutical companies now have to work harder to convince people to get vaccines so their profits can stay where they are at. We are seeing the power of free and open media. You can likely guess you would not see a story like this nor honest coverage about vaccines in mainstream media.

The Takeaway: Humanity is waking up to truths that have long been held hidden behind the lack of honest media and government. As we begin to understand what is truly going on behind the scenes, we are beginning to ask even deeper questions. Why have we not be told the full story? Why do we give up our power to those who do not have our best interests at heart? What role are they playing in the awakening of humanity? Who are we? Why are we truly here and why are we not thriving as a global society? What is truly holding us back?

These questions lead us inwards to explore the true nature of who we are. Do we really lack the solutions in our world to allow humanity to thrive? Or is it that human consciousness is suppressed and stuck in a story of separation? Raising human consciousness is the solution we’re looking for.
#15112500
Godstud wrote:Yes, maz, Americans by and large, are a stupid group of people.


I found the poll itself not actually damning, and personally I find a higher proportion of Republicans (47%) accepting the potential vaccine than I expected.

I can understand that the propaganda appearing after the poll report irritate most rational people, but I think the propaganda part at worst showed the poster being stupid.
#15112510
As i said before this crisis favours the Left as 9/11 favoured the Right of course there will be elements of the left that are not happy as there were elements of the right that were not happy with the course post 9/11 but the general trend is clear.

I don't believe in absolute morality, so I couldn't absolutely oppose torture in all circumstances. Parachutists, Commandos, and underground resistance movements are going to use it and getting in a moral hysteria about it is just silly. However I could say there was no practical situation, remotely likely that I would ever support the government's use of torture. The Right at the time loved to regale us with silly contrived thought experiments about Nuclear bombs on 24 hour timers and other nonsense. I long ago had to accept that I was way more intelligent than the average person. There are disadvantages to living in a world ruled by people who are significantly less intelligent than oneself, but it has its compensations. I was deeply amused to hear that transportation deaths had increased by 1500 after to 9/11 as so many people shifted from safe planes to more dangerous road journeys. An appropriate reward for the American people's pathetic, cowardly and hypocritical response to 9/11.

Similarly with compulsory vaccines. While it might be appropriate in the military and you can certainly contrive artificial, and unlikely thought experiments as to where it would make logical rational sense, I see no likely scenario where generalised compulsory vaccine would be justified or beneficial for society overall.
#15112532
Godstud wrote:Only your doctor is qualified to make that decision.

No person of high intelligence should just trust their Doctor. For someone to say that suggests either they are not of high intelligence themselves, or they are of high intelligence, but consciously lying for ideological / political career advancement purposes. I trust Physicists when they tell me the mass of the Electron. I trust geographers / astronomers when they tell me the diameters of the Earth. I trust Chemists when they tell me about the bonding possibilities of Carbon atoms. But when it comes to economics, finance, or health care I would never just blindly trust "an expert."

I remember a car mechanic telling me that the head had gone. I didn't take up his kind offer of urgent repair. I was still able to drive six thousand miles without needing to top up on oil or water. :lol: Perhaps my car had a miracle cure. ;) Well I can tell you that I care a lot more about my body than I do about my cars. I was told by one Doctor that I would never be able to sit cross legged again. I can sit full Lotus just fine. Don't trust my experience, Tony Morris a leading voice in Functional Programming, has a whole series of Blog articles about some leg problem he had, and how he had to take full charge of his medical care and the litany of incompetencies and misdiagnosis by the supposed Medical experts. Don't know if they are still on line.

Yes of course a smart person listens to expert's in areas in which he lack's expertise, but he never leaves the final decisions for his business, his family or his own body to those so called experts or even to so called consensuses of those so called experts.
#15112555
Rich wrote:No person of high intelligence should just trust their Doctor. For someone to say that suggests either they are not of high intelligence themselves, or they are of high intelligence, but consciously lying for ideological / political career advancement purposes.


Or that they're socially domesticated intellectual geldings that may have the IQ to know better but have been so psychologically crippled by a lifetime of operant conditioning that they're no longer mentally capable of questioning authority.

Traditionally these types that have lost the capacity for independent thought are referred to as the dead, the blind, the profane, the lame, the sheep, the beasts of the field, etc. I just call them retards.
#15112558
Yes, @Sivad Be a fool and trust some idiot who made a Youtube video. That's makes you so edgy and intellectually superior. That's so fucking stupid that it's laughable.

Trusting a medical professional with an advanced degree in medicine and years of experience is better than trusting some uneducated twit trying to push a narrative who makes a video that caters to your stupidity and fears.

So fuck off, Edgelords.
#15112692
Deutschmania wrote:



Without better reference it is not a problem for people to believe figures of authority more than others. It is a statistically safer way.

On this occasion, a member's close-of-kin is involved, which means this can become pretty sensitive. This is why I seldom relay my parents' or other family members' views.
#15112697
Robert F. Kennedy JR and Alec Baldwin discuss vaccines and covid


Yea. There are a couple of fucking winners for you. Just the people we ought to ask about vaccine. A lawyer and an actor with a BFA from NYU. Couple of real immunologists.

Fuck dude. Get a clue.
#15112754
Drlee wrote:Yea. There are a couple of fucking winners for you. Just the people we ought to ask about vaccine. A lawyer and an actor with a BFA from NYU. Couple of real immunologists.

Fuck dude. Get a clue.


Kennedy would ruin your ass in a debate. You can't even hold down a pofo thread, in all our exchanges you haven't made even one good substantive point. It's just been blatant idiocy and ludicrous babbittry from you.
#15112772
Sivad wrote:Kennedy would ruin your ass in a debate.
Kennedy is a lawyer. Enough said.

Sivad wrote:You can't even hold down a pofo thread, in all our exchanges you haven't made even one good substantive point.
Projecting much? Were you looking in a mirror as you were typing this?

Sivad wrote:It's just been blatant idiocy and ludicrous babbittry from you.
No. That's been coming from you. You ignore real science in favour of the Appeal to Authority logical fallacy ALL THE TIME. One scientist speaks out and you believe him, regardless of the actual evidence... maybe even despite it. If it's a conspiracy theory, you are ON BOARD! :knife:
#15112789
Rugoz wrote:Depends where you live to be honest. In Russia you will probably get inoculated with some fake propaganda vaccine nobody else in the world uses. :lol:


https://www.foxnews.com/world/russia-re ... r-given-it

At least it's going to be "voluntary" for now. But here we go, a greenlight for an in-field Russian "trial" on the general public.

Putin: My Daughter used it and now has 2 years immunity, trust me.
#15112802
Godstud wrote:Kennedy is a lawyer. Enough said.



That's a brainless way of looking at it. :knife:

Kennedy is a lawyer who's spent the last 15 years litigating the issue. That's a decade and a half of talking to experts, studying the science, closely following the regulatory developments, meeting with parents of vaccine injured children, preparing briefs and arguing it in courtrooms. Kennedy probably has a better grasp of the issue than 99% of pediatricians, he's got encyclopedic knowledge of every study and meta-analysis on vaccine safety, he knows the legal and regulatory history of vaccines inside and out and he knows exactly how the vaccine science sausage gets made. Kennedy has probably forgotten more about vaccine safety than most of the so-called experts ever bother to learn.
#15112804
:lol: You have a foolish way of looking at it. He is NOT an expert of anything but LAW pertaining to this. Everything else is something you are ASSUMING. Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Authority.
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