Laid Off Workers Set Up Soup Kitchens in Front of Senators Opposed to Extending $600 Checks - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Political issues and parties in the USA and Canada.

Moderator: PoFo North America Mods

Forum rules: No one line posts please.
#15112983
Politics_Observer wrote:@wat0n

The problem with the executive order that Trump has signed is that it requires states to come up with a quarter of the cost of the extra $400. That's money that some and perhaps most states don't have. Which means, workers might not receive that extra $400 a week at all. I think this was a way for Trump to say to the American people "see, I am trying to help you" without ever actually helping given that the unemployed won't receive that extra $400 a week anyway. That means, the feds won't have to pay anything too as well as the states.

So, signing executive orders that don't effectively do anything is still not doing anything or helping anybody. It also enables Trump to try to pass the buck and say, "it's not my fault, I signed an executive order and the states didn't pay their half. It's the state's fault." It's Trump's way of trying to show he is trying to help while not really trying to help and trying to pass the buck back to the states when in reality, the buck stops with him and not the states. He is playing a game of hot potato trying to pass liability off for his job and his responsibilities onto somebody else so that he can try to deflect blame for his own failures.

That is all nonsense. All states can come up with the money if they care about their citizens. The states don't have to come up with half, but only a quarter of the cost. Trump is trying to get the Democrats to make a deal with the Republicans at $1 trillion instead of the $3 trillion that Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer were demanding, most of which had nothing to do with covid-19 relief.

Politics_Observer wrote:@Chad

It's not that simple. The thing is, Trump closed down the pandemic team BEFORE the pandemic hit, which was really stupid. He did so, because he needed a way to pay for tax cuts to the rich. See, he was trying to get something for nothing and so were his rich friends. But then, the pandemic actually hit and Trump did not listen to the advice of the experts.

It was Dr. Fauci, the so-called expert that told Trump that he need to shut the country down. Trump said that he thought that was crazy, but he decided to listen to the expert in order to save lives.
#15113000
Pants-of-dog wrote:Laid off workers cannot get health insurance, I presume.

How does that work during a pandemic? I am joking. I know the answer: it does not work.


Again, once the pandemic ends the reason for the handouts ends too. They will then have to look for jobs, and when that happens why exactly would anyone want to have them face high barriers to formal entry (such as a minimum wage for Seattle in Mississippi)? The only thing that will accomplish is to generate unemployment and informal work. And we know this because all the research about the minimum wage has been done in cases of small increases, not large hikes - and that research suggests that there's either no effect on employment or a clearly negative one. If that's what happens after the minimum wage goes up by 10% or so, what will happen if it goes up by 30, 50 or 100% depending on the State?
#15113010
Politics_Observer wrote:Unemployment insurance doesn't pay much and $600 an extra a month is not much when you take into consideration the fact that unemployment insurance doesn't pay much anyway.

It's a lot when the federal government is paying for states that are engaged in unwarranted shutdowns instead of mask mandates and social distancing. They've already spent many trillions of dollars. We simply don't have the money. We're printing it and the dollar is falling now.

Politics_Observer wrote:So, I think what it boils down to, is that corporations need to pay their workers more to give them an incentive to come back to work and that's if they are willing to have them come back to work during this pandemic.

:roll: Who has the money to pay people more during a pandemic when business is off by 30%? Apple, maybe?

Politics_Observer wrote:Corporations have been taking advantage of workers, ripping them off and under-paying them.

Oh, so they should just have a big pile of money somewhere, is that what you think?

Politics_Observer wrote:So if these businesses can collect money from the taxpayers then they can start by paying a higher wage that is more in line with inflation and the cost of living.

They were paid to not layoff workers even though business collapsed. Do you think airlines make money with planes running at 1/3 of capacity, and most of the planes not in service?

Politics_Observer wrote: If they are forcing workers to return to work under these conditions, they should be held liable for damages if their workers catch COVID and have to pay their workers damages.

Just covid, or flu, the common cold, or any other communicable disease that may or may not have been transmitted at work, since none of us can see what's happening at the microscopic level?

Politics_Observer wrote:I am surprised the federal government would pay that much.

That's why nobody wants to go back to work. They are making more on UI than their hourly rates.

Pants-of-dog wrote:If your business model cannot afford a decent minimum wage and basic worker safety, your business model is not viable and you should not be in business.

Going out of business is precisely what happens in such scenarios, and then you are left with long-term structural unemployment. Entrepreneurs have no obligation to open businesses and employ people.

Pants-of-dog wrote:If people get laid off, they can simply collect the 600$ a week.

No. That's an emergency supplemental for covid. UI is funded by payroll taxes, and it's time-limited. If they paid everyone $600 a week, the UI system would be bankrupt in 3 months or less.

Pants-of-dog wrote:It is interesting how capitalist governments should be free to make policy that hurts laid off workers but should not make policy that imposes any kind of inconvenience on businesses.

They impose all kinds of inconvenience on businesses, which is why so many move offshore to places like China.

Politics_Observer wrote:The thing is, Trump closed down the pandemic team BEFORE the pandemic hit, which was really stupid. He did so, because he needed a way to pay for tax cuts to the rich.

Look. It's fine to dislike Trump. There was no trillion dollar pandemic response team sitting around waiting in the wings. It's unlikely cost was the issue, and unlikely that it involved anything more than $20M in payroll cuts. You are studying computer science. It's important to demonstrate to others who might employ you that you can crunch numbers and understand the difference in scope between a small team of bureaucrats and a trillion dollar cash flow engine. There is virtually no relationship between this notional pandemic team and tax cuts.

Politics_Observer wrote:But then, the pandemic actually hit and Trump did not listen to the advice of the experts.

We've all been listening to the experts, and they have been all over the freaking map. The health director of NYC finally resigned, and so did the State of California's. Notice that isn't bandied about in the press much? For whatever reason, Fauci is still around.

Politics_Observer wrote:But then, the pandemic actually hit and Trump did not listen to the advice of the experts.

"The moral of the story..." type bullshit when tied to these events isn't a bridge you can sell to anyone. We've all seen what's been going on, and anyone suggesting that tax cuts caused coronavirus is simply going to be laughed out of the room.

Politics_Observer wrote:The rich use CPAs to get out of paying taxes, but the rich will still pay anyway in the costs of the economic damage done to their businesses by the pandemic.

The pandemic isn't causing much damage. It's the government response to it that is causing the damage. Trump is to blame for international airline travel. That's his responsibility in it. Most of the unemployment is due to state lockdowns. Those business owners know who is preventing them from operating. The airlines could listen to your argument, but pretty much nobody else will.

Politics_Observer wrote:They could have prevented and mitigated most of the economic damage done to their businesses if they just paid their taxes to begin with and voted for somebody who would have not closed down the pandemic team and would have listened to the experts.

Keep these kinds of comments here under a pseudonym. Whatever you do, do not say something this stupid in a job interview. You're intelligent enough to do Linux system admin work. You don't want to say the equivalent of screaming "I'm an idiot! Please hire me!" in a professional situation.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Again, if people are making more money by staying at home, it makes sense to provide a wage that actually incentivises employment.

It does incentivize employment--offshore.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Or, you know, get rid of capitalism.

That's what a lock down does.

Hindsite wrote:Trump is trying to get the Democrats to make a deal with the Republicans at $1 trillion instead of the $3 trillion that Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer were demanding, most of which had nothing to do with covid-19 relief.

The Democrats have totally screwed a number of big cities, including Minneapolis/St. Paul, Chicago, NYC, Seattle and Portland. The financial damage is extensive, but it was inflicted deliberately by Democrats. They need to pay for their own messes.

Hindsite wrote:It was Dr. Fauci, the so-called expert that told Trump that he need to shut the country down. Trump said that he thought that was crazy, but he decided to listen to the expert in order to save lives.

Fauci said there was a very low risk to the US. Then, he said millions were going to die in a few months. Then, he said we should never shake hands again, but that it's okay to meet stranger online and have sex with them. The dude is off his rocker, and the problem isn't that people aren't listening to him, but that they are. He told the country masks would make the problem worse--lying in the hopes of preventing mask hoarding. Count me unimpressed with "experts."
#15113027
Pants-of-dog wrote:If your business model cannot afford a decent minimum wage and basic worker safety, your business model is not viable and you should not be in business.

Yeah right, we've seen from the Holdomor to the great leap forward what happens when Leftists are put in charge of business. I know, I know works fine for them, you can you be sure they are at least good enough at administration to make sure its not the Leftie bureaucrats that are starving.

Communism = Liberal "Experts" - Democracy
#15113071
I find it amusing that capitalists are getting mad at me for explaining how capitalism works.

Health insurance tied to jobs has failed you.

Private health insurance in general has failed you.

Having a low minimum wage has failed you because people are not willing to work for so little.

Having a decent minimum wage fails you because your own companies would rather move offshore.

So now you have people with the Trump virus sharing soup outside of a Senator’s house.

You made this bed.
#15113075
Pants-of-dog wrote:I find it amusing that capitalists are getting mad at me for explaining how capitalism works.


No one's getting mad here. Are you? Or you are just trying to low-quality troll?

Assuming you are not engaging in some Lada-tier trolling (commies always have trouble delivering quality stuff):

Pants-of-dog wrote:Health insurance tied to jobs has failed you.

Private health insurance in general has failed you.


What does it have to do with the topic at hand exactly?

Pants-of-dog wrote:Having a low minimum wage has failed you because people are not willing to work for so little.


Please providence evidence for this claim. If you say it because of the temporary $600/week benefit, it doesn't matter. It's not like minimum wage workers work remotely for the most part, they simply can't show up to work regardless of whether they like it or not.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Having a decent minimum wage fails you because your own companies would rather move offshore.


I don't think SMEs move offshore. They simply close up shop, like some have been doing thus far.

Pants-of-dog wrote:So now you have people with the Trump virus sharing soup outside of a Senator’s house.

You made this bed.


Meh, it's way better than the "examples" Marxists provide. Venezuela should ring a bell here, I'd very much prefer to lie on Trump's over Chavez's bed. And it's not like other OECD countries are doing any better.
#15113088
@Hindsite @blackjack21

Y'all just keep on drinking that Trump Kool Aid but one way or another, you are going to have to FACE THE FACTS that you made a BIG MISTAKE voting for TRUMP. And NOW, you and many other Americans (some of them innocent Americans who did not vote for Trump) are paying for it. You should have voted for Hillary. I mean I know you are a republican and she is a democrat and she is also a woman and you don't want a woman in office. You only wanted a white man in office, preferably a rich white man.

But voting for Trump is like voting for Adolf Hitler. You should have put the best interests of the country first when you voted but instead you voted for your own narrow selfish and ignorant interests. How could y'all been so short sighted and ignorant only thinking of yourselves instead of what was best for the country? Now look at the mess we are in.
#15113090
Politics_Observer wrote:@Chad

It's not that simple. The thing is, Trump closed down the pandemic team BEFORE the pandemic hit, which was really stupid. He did so, because he needed a way to pay for tax cuts to the rich. See, he was trying to get something for nothing and so were his rich friends. But then, the pandemic actually hit and Trump did not listen to the advice of the experts.

So, guess what. Trump, the U.S. government and the rich folks who refused to listen to the advice of experts and who closed down the pandemic team which could have helped to prevent some of these costs are now going to have to pay an even bigger cost than they otherwise would have paid. They were trying to get something for free. But their is no such thing as free and one way or another you are going to pay. So, it's better to pay up front and listen to the experts up front rather than have to pay an even higher cost further down the line than what you otherwise would pay. But you will pay one way or another because nothing is free.

This is Trump's fault and the reason why the feds are being asked to pay all this money is because Trump closed down the pandemic team and didn't listen to the experts. So now, the taxpayers including the rich are going to pay. The rich use CPAs to get out of paying taxes, but the rich will still pay anyway in the costs of the economic damage done to their businesses by the pandemic. They could have prevented and mitigated most of the economic damage done to their businesses if they just paid their taxes to begin with and voted for somebody who would have not closed down the pandemic team and would have listened to the experts. But that's not what happened so they paid in terms of economic damage done to their businesses anyway regardless even if they don't pay taxes because they can hire attorneys and CPAs to weasel their way out of paying those taxes. Either way you still pay one way or another.

It's not going to be so simple for rich folks to throw those economic damages done to their businesses by the pandemic back on the taxpayers when the pandemic will devastate the work force if they return back to those businesses to work without having a proper vaccine that is effective. When you are a business and your work force can't return back to work, that's costing you money, big time. So, I don't think the rich will be able to escape those costs given the situation. But they could have mitigated some of those costs if they had just stopped being so short sighted and greedy in the first place.

The Chinese own your own argument against President Trump and America's taxpaying legal citizens. The Chinese and Fauci are the pandemic team before and after the (Wuhan Fauci Flu) This is only one of many reasons that America's economy got dinged by the Chinese and the Democrats. Imagine knowing the outcome of shutting down America's economy for a Flu that only kills at a higher rate than a regular flu virus does. Cuomo banned effective treatments and in doing so possibly murdered 30,000 New Yorkers. Many Democrats killed thousands more by banning effective treatments. Obama care killed the Doctor Patient relationships of many family Doctors even though Obozo claimed"You can keep your Doctor" Communism does not sleep. It is always waiting for an opportunity to entice all with greener pastures that are actually rotting bodies on a canvas laden with despair for the commoner and rich rewards for the elite. So many countries using any and all medicines and knowledge of medicines have found great success in defeating the mortality rates of Democrat run States. President Trump is good for America's taxpaying legal citizens. Joe Biden and Kamala Harris are bad for America's taxpaying citizens. The Democrats unleashed the Chinese Fauci Flu too soon. America's public is finding out early enough that Democrats in America are Communists in disguise. According to Corn Pop's latest poll Biden-Harris lose to Trump-Pence in 2020-2024!
#15113124
Pants-of-dog wrote:So now you have people with the Trump virus sharing soup outside of a Senator’s house.

You made this bed.

It's a potemkin soup stand. The homeless are currently in a government-provided hotel room in a narcotic haze from government-provided drugs like fentanyl. These people are political activists. It's just a photo op. Nothing more.

Politics_Observer wrote:Y'all just keep on drinking that Trump Kool Aid but one way or another, you are going to have to FACE THE FACTS that you made a BIG MISTAKE voting for TRUMP. And NOW, you and many other Americans (some of them innocent Americans who did not vote for Trump) are paying for it.

My income has doubled and I was already into six figures. I'm failing to see how this is hurting me.

Politics_Observer wrote:But voting for Trump is like voting for Adolf Hitler. You should have put the best interests of the country first when you voted but instead you voted for your own narrow selfish and ignorant interests.

Voting for more outsourcing and more illegal aliens is not in the best interests of the country.
#15113130
blackjack21 wrote:We've all been listening to the experts, and they have been all over the freaking map. The health director of NYC finally resigned, and so did the State of California's. Notice that isn't bandied about in the press much? For whatever reason, Fauci is still around.

Because I am retired I have time to watch a lot of cable news. CNN and MSNBC have apparently decided not to cover any of President Trump's briefing while they are happening. That way all the Democrats's MSM can pick out those parts that they can misrepresent to make Trump look as bad as possible. They don't want to make the same mistake that got Trump elected the last time. They are also making out like there are no protest riots in the Democrat controlled cities.

blackjack21 wrote:Fauci said there was a very low risk to the US. Then, he said millions were going to die in a few months. Then, he said we should never shake hands again, but that it's okay to meet stranger online and have sex with them. The dude is off his rocker, and the problem isn't that people aren't listening to him, but that they are. He told the country masks would make the problem worse--lying in the hopes of preventing mask hoarding. Count me unimpressed with "experts."

In the beginning, Fauci did not want Trump to stop the travel coming in from China, but Trump did it anyway. Then, all of a sudden Dr. Fauci said that we need to close the country down and have people shelter in place. I wish Trump had not listened to him then too. But then most of the other countries were closing everything down too. Like most people Trump thought the medical experts knew what they were talking about. However, as it turns out Dr. Fauci was either guessing of misleading Trump and everybody else. I think Dr. Fauci could be a Democrat or a never-Trumper. I think Trump finally wised up to his nonsense, because Trump has been giving his China virus briefings now without Dr. Fauci.

Politics_Observer wrote:@Hindsite @blackjack21

Y'all just keep on drinking that Trump Kool Aid but one way or another, you are going to have to FACE THE FACTS that you made a BIG MISTAKE voting for TRUMP. And NOW, you and many other Americans (some of them innocent Americans who did not vote for Trump) are paying for it. You should have voted for Hillary. I mean I know you are a republican and she is a democrat and she is also a woman and you don't want a woman in office. You only wanted a white man in office, preferably a rich white man.

But voting for Trump is like voting for Adolf Hitler. You should have put the best interests of the country first when you voted but instead you voted for your own narrow selfish and ignorant interests. How could y'all been so short sighted and ignorant only thinking of yourselves instead of what was best for the country? Now look at the mess we are in.

You are just talking Democrat bullshit. I am doing just fine and will be voting for President Trump again. A lot of your Democrat buddies in Democrat controlled cities are probably doing pretty bad. I hope they are not stupid enough to believe the political lies from the Democrat main stream news media. They would do better to vote those lying Democrats out of office.
#15113148
Pants-of-dog wrote:It is something like 1 in 5 people are unemployed in the USA right now.

Yeah, they are mostly working class people working in hotels, restaurants, theaters, bars, stadiums, concert venues, barbers, beauty salons and the like. They are considered "non-essential" by many of our governors. Almost none of them are unemployed by their own fault, but rather almost all of them by the edicts of state governments.

Hindsite wrote:I think Dr. Fauci could be a Democrat or a never-Trumper.

He's likely that, and a bit of a gadfly. He's well into his seventies but is still the director of the NIH. All of his predecessors had about 10 year stints in that role, and he's been there almost 40 years in the same role--sort of like the J. Edgar Hoover of the NIH. For whatever reason, I tend to trust people less when they hold the same government or quasi-government positions for that long. Frankly, I haven't been that impressed and think there has to be some ulterior reason he occupies that position. Trump has had no problem firing so many other positions. Maybe Fauci will be out after the election, or Trump doesn't have the direct control to fire him.
#15113347
blackjack21 wrote:Maybe Fauci will be out after the election, or Trump doesn't have the direct control to fire him.

President Trump has been consulting a different doctor with a different view from Fauci lately. He also has a short name, but I can't think of it right now. But so far he seems to have common sense, at least. Some in the MSM have started to criticize him. That seems to be another good sign. :lol:

Pants-of-dog wrote:Having incredibly high unemployment during a pandemic and having health insurance tied to a job is a recipe for disaster.

I blame those state governors, who continue to keep businesses from opening, for that.
#15113363
wat0n wrote:Yeah, and if he's playing that game it's because he's trying to bypass the House. He can at most give $300/week (based on what you wrote here, I'm not sure about the specific law regarding appropriation procedures here), the interesting thing is that one would expect this burden to fall on Red states since they are poorer :hmm:

Let's see how that turns out. I'm guessing reality will make both sides to become more conciliatory as the deadlines approach.



OK, and if that happens what would happen to those workers who are laid off? Answer: They'll work informally, out of any government regulations and without paying the corresponding taxes.


Welcome to Latin America. The USA is going to be resulting in Latin American models of making money. Workers working informally and no gov't regulations and without paying corresponding taxes and so on. You see why I think that if conditions change @blackjack21 and @wat0n that you get the same problems? Because it is the truth. People will begin working informally and the sheer amount of them will overwhelm the system's ability to get them to pay taxes and follow the rule of law. Why? You did not do what was necessary to keep a first world paradigm going.

You stay with the damn dictator Trump doing fraud and lying all the time and you keep those horrific center rightists dems like Harris and Biden? You will get the fallout.

Get ready for informal economy if the unemployment insurance is not approved for extensions.
#15113372
Pants-of-dog wrote:Having incredibly high unemployment during a pandemic and having health insurance tied to a job is a recipe for disaster.

They can just sign up for Medicare. It's also fine for illegal aliens in California, because California gives illegal aliens free healthcare as a bonus for taking jobs from unemployed American citizens.

Tainari88 wrote:Welcome to Latin America. The USA is going to be resulting in Latin American models of making money. Workers working informally and no gov't regulations and without paying corresponding taxes and so on. You see why I think that if conditions change @blackjack21 and @wat0n that you get the same problems? Because it is the truth. People will begin working informally and the sheer amount of them will overwhelm the system's ability to get them to pay taxes and follow the rule of law. Why? You did not do what was necessary to keep a first world paradigm going.

That's what I've said for a long time. Illegal immigration will not lead to Mexican immigrants turning into Americans. It will lead to the US turning into Mexico. What is informal working? A tax revolt for all intents and purposes.

Tainari88 wrote:You stay with the damn dictator Trump doing fraud and lying all the time and you keep those horrific center rightists dems like Harris and Biden? You will get the fallout.

How do you call Trump a dictator with a straight face in view of Cuomo, Murphy, Newsom, Wolf, and Whitmer? What dictatorial things is he doing that you disagree with, or are you just name calling?
#15113382
Tainari88 wrote:Welcome to Latin America. The USA is going to be resulting in Latin American models of making money. Workers working informally and no gov't regulations and without paying corresponding taxes and so on. You see why I think that if conditions change @blackjack21 and @wat0n that you get the same problems? Because it is the truth. People will begin working informally and the sheer amount of them will overwhelm the system's ability to get them to pay taxes and follow the rule of law. Why? You did not do what was necessary to keep a first world paradigm going.

You stay with the damn dictator Trump doing fraud and lying all the time and you keep those horrific center rightists dems like Harris and Biden? You will get the fallout.

Get ready for informal economy if the unemployment insurance is not approved for extensions.


The informal economy is propped up precisely because of onerous regulations, including in Latin America itself (whenever the minimum wages are high relative to the economy's average income or other regulations place a burden on the labor market. For instance, American immigration law coupled with the inability to stop people from crossing the border leads to the same result regarding the work by illegal immigrants - in that instance there is a fair case to make that the immigration system needs an overhaul. The same happens in Latin American countries, como bien sabes).

That's why I think that, with the exception of monopsonistic labor markets (i.e. industries with a single or very few employers) I think government-set minimum wages can often be harmful and a stronger social safety net can be a better option from an economic efficiency point of view (as long as it is also well designed that doesn't remove the incentives to work), even if it means raising taxes. Ironically, that's how Nordic countries do it but for some reason progressives don't like to copy that policy.
#15113407
Pants-of-dog wrote:I am beginning to think that US conservatives are simply not that bright.

Why are you people so opposed to an intelligent medical system and using taxes to help people instead of helping businesses?

Some people like you or @jimjam would like Donald Trump to be responsible for your medical care. People like me do not trust politicians with health care for the obvious reasons that 1) they aren't good at it; 2) they won't be held accountable for bad health care; 3) it ultimately leads to rationing; and 4) in America rationing would be mandatory to prevent the medical system from bankrupting the state. So we do not want our personal life and death decisions made by people who are known primarily for lying, deceit, fraud, betrayal and so forth. Why is that so hard to understand?

I don't think he does know who the Proud Boys a[…]

His symbol actually goes far beyond American bord[…]

Ridiculous claims. Turkey does not even involve in[…]

What is Fascism

I agree! Good point! I should not give that m[…]