[skinster]

He pulled out of the Paris agreement,

Not yet he hasn't:

Although President Donald Trump has declared that the United States will withdraw from the Paris Agreement, this cannot be effectuated until the day after the 2020 presidential election in the United States. Since the United States has not declared an intention to also withdraw from the 1992 UNFCCC, the United States will continue to be obliged to prepare National Communications.

he put the kibosh on the TPP,

Trump to reconsider joining TPP trade pact

he pulled out of Syria,

American troops are still in Syria and we recently heard Trump wanted to assassinate Assad a few years ago, despite Candidate Trump saying he'd bring the troops home. They're still guarding oil fields in Syria, let me know how that helps you.

he didn't start a war with Iran,

He pulled out of the JCPOA (Iran deal), increased sanctions on Iran, assassinated their high ranking general who was successful in directing the fight against ISIS types, tried to instigate protests in Iran and failed yet again to name some of the attacks on Iran under Trump, plus he has Israel-firster Sheldon Adelson as a master . Trump is already making war on Iran, he'll no doubt attack Iran further if he wins, but it's likely the other guy will too.

the biggest thing he's done is shit all over elitist institutions.

It's theatre and it still doesn't serve people of your class despite you imagining it will...eventually.

There is no progress for the working class as long as elistst power structures hold sway over society.

Billionaires like Trump will continue to not care for you and those structures will remain because

[Sivad]

Not yet he hasn't.

Yes he has. He cut the funding and he's just running out the clock on the exit process. Trump wouldn't sign on to that bullshit in a million years.

Trump to reconsider joining TPP trade pact

the United States signed on 4 February 2016. After the newly elected US president Donald Trump withdrew the US signature from TPP in January 2017, the agreement could not be ratified as required and did not enter into force.

We'll see what he does but his withdrawal was a solid victory for the working class.

American troops are still in Syria

very few and a lot less than there were. And a hell of a lot less than there would have been if Clinton won.

and we recently heard Trump wanted to assassinate Assad a few years ago

So what? It's too bad he didn't. Offing some tinpot isn't going to war, that's not the same thing.

He pulled out of the JCPOA (Iran deal), increased sanctions on Iran, assassinated their high ranking general who was successful in directing the fight against ISIS types, tried to instigate protests in Iran and failed yet again to name some of the attacks on Iran under Trump, plus he has Israel-firster Sheldon Adelson as a master . Trump is already making war on Iran, he'll no doubt attack Iran further if he wins, but it's likely the other guy will too.

The Iran deal was bullshit, it gave those fucking mullahs too much they could use to keep themselves in power. And who gives a shit about destabilizing the regime or greasing some Iranian general? Fuck that regime. Short of war or genocidal sanctions, I don't care what Trump does to hasten the demise of the mullahs.

He is fucking horrible on Israel.

It's theatre and it still doesn't serve people of your class despite you imagining it will...eventually.

Whatever, you don't know what you're talking about.

Billionaires like Trump will continue to not care for you

Never imagined that he did. I don't care what Trump cares about as long as he keeps trashing and bashing the established order.

and those structures will remain

They'll remain but they'll be substantially weakened and that's more than I ever hoped any president would ever do.

[skinster]

Yes he has. He cut the funding and he's just running out the clock on the exit process. Trump wouldn't sign on to that bullshit in a million years.

And he might not win again, or he might win again and go back on what he said, since he doesn't have anything to lose by that stage.

the United States signed on 4 February 2016. After the newly elected US president Donald Trump withdrew the US signature from TPP in January 2017, the agreement could not be ratified as required and did not enter into force.

Trump has said he'll reconsider it and, see above.

We'll see what he does but his withdrawal was a solid victory for the working class.

I doubt it.

very few and a lot less than there were. And a hell of a lot less than there would have been if Clinton won.

The point is troops are still there and Trump has continued aggression on Syria (and many other countries)

Offing some tinpot isn't going to war, that's not the same thing.

The Iran deal was bullshit, it gave those fucking mullahs too much they could use to keep themselves in power.

That's what you were taught by propaganda but the opposite is true re: the JCPOA.

And who gives a shit about destabilizing the regime or greasing some Iranian general? Fuck that regime. Short of war or genocidal sanctions, I don't care what Trump does to hasten the demise of the mullahs.

I was countering your silly statement that Trump hasn't gone to war with Iran, when he quite clearly has. The demise of the mullahs? Your state is responsible for them running the show.

He is fucking horrible on Israel.

How?

Whatever, you don't know what you're talking about.

And you believe Trump is genuinely against his ultra rich mates.

Never imagined that he did. I don't care what Trump cares about as long as he keeps trashing and bashing the established order.

It's theatre.

They'll remain but they'll be substantially weakened and that's more than I ever hoped any president would ever do.

You should go by reality, not what you imagine.

[B0ycey]

You fake socialists just want to take over those power structures, real socialists want them totally demolished.

Hang on a second Sivad, you're backing Trump. The guy who single handedly uses the word Socialist as an insult to his opponents. All Trump will do is give his mates handouts, grant cooperates less restrictions and tell you the working class that you will get the trickle down effect - which is laymen for 'fuck all'.

Ask yourself a serious question. Are you better off today than four years ago? The answer is really no. But Reddit and 4Chan of far right propaganda will blame the Mexicans and drug cartel and liberals waving their knickers in the air. Or Pelosi for blocking congress. But somehow never Trump. Don't be a fool. True Socialists back Bernie not Trump. Return back to Sivad of 2 years ago. Not mugging Sivad of today.

[Patrickov]

And today, people who support him would rather defend his lies and his stupidity rather than admit they voted in an idiot and they were duped.

Sorry I don't find this point tenable. I mean, voting is a closed process. No one will ever know who I have voted until I say it myself. What's the problem if I switch sides (in a vote) if I find it necessary?

[B0ycey]

Sorry I don't find this point tenable. I mean, voting is a closed process. No one will ever know who I have voted until I say it myself. What's the problem if I switch sides (in a vote) if I find it necessary?

Of course the point is tennable. Those who support Trump are vocal on it especially on PoFo.

Besides, if the objective was to bring down the establishment or return jobs back from over seas, or to send Mexicans back or stop the cartel from drugging the children or even stop the liberal agenda then Trump is on par with Obama. You know Obama - the so called Antichrist. Trump hasn't even finished his wall. But reading the BS on here it's as if Trump has made a difference. He hasn't. And nor was he planning on doing so. His whole purpose of being President was to pay back his backers, give tax breaks to his buddies and fleece the working class. And that is his legacy. And his supporters refuse to acknowledge he failed them and would rather spout his lies.

[Patrickov]

Of course the point is tennable. Those who support Trump are vocal on it especially on PoFo.

They don't make the point itself tenable because it is their problem to be unnecessary vocal and thus make a fool of themselves.

Consistency is not always necessary for "small potatoes", really.

Besides, if the objective was to bring down the establishment or return jobs back from over seas, or to send Mexicans back or stop the cartel from drugging the children or even stop the liberal agenda then Trump is on par with Obama. You know Obama - the so called Antichrist. Trump hasn't even finished his wall. But reading the BS on here it's as if Trump has made a difference. He hasn't. And nor was he planning on doing so. His whole purpose of being President was to pay back his backers, give tax breaks to his buddies and fleece the working class. And that is his legacy. And his supporters refuse to acknowledge he failed them and would rather spout his lies.

What I say is that their acknowledgement can be largely hidden and no one can really tell who's doing that, even if they are vocal.

The real problem is merely their lack of intelligence to see the practicality of both rallying for Trump during conventions and voting Biden (or whoever else) in the polling station.

[B0ycey]

They don't make the point itself tenable because it is their problem to be unnecessary vocal and thus make a fool of themselves.

Consistency is not always necessary for "small potatoes", really.

The point was they back him and still defend him regardless whether he has achieved his manifesto pledges or not... or that their quality of life still hasn't improved (or has in fact decreased FYI). Not that voting should be secret unless the dumbass shouts out about it. Why would a secret ballot make my point untenable?

What I say is that their acknowledgement can be largely hidden and no one can really tell who's doing that, even if they are vocal.
The real problem is merely their lack of intelligence to see the practicality of both rallying for Trump during conventions and voting Biden (or whoever else) in the polling station.

Trump is a product of ignorance. That is to say as long as he is vocal about a problem, it doesn't matter whether he does anything about it... or that he will make things worse overall. The mere fact he has addressed it will gain him support.

[Patrickov]

The point was they back him and still defend him regardless whether he has achieved his manifesto pledges or not... or that their quality of life still hasn't improved (or has in fact decreased FYI). Not that voting should be secret unless the dumbass shouts out about it. Why would a secret ballot make my point untenable?

What I found untenable is that "voting against Trump = admitting they had voted in an idiot and they were duped"

Even if they are vocal in supporting Trump, they can still just vote someone else in the polling station. These two are completely separate acts and I am sure at least some American voters are capable of doing that. What prevents this from happening is only the said people's intelligence.

[Wulfschilde]

The first step to understanding pro-Trumpers is to realize that they don't believe literally anything that came from an anonymous source, or that was investigated and went nowhere.

If you can wrap your mind around that, as crazy as such things may be... then you might be able to understand.

[B0ycey]

What I found untenable is that "voting against Trump = admitting they had voted in an idiot and they were duped"

Even if they are vocal in supporting Trump, they can still just vote someone else in the polling station. These two are completely separate acts and I am sure at least some American voters are capable of doing that. What prevents this from happening is only the said people's intelligence.

OK, so it wasn't the quote or my point but the processes of changing opinion which had nothing to do with the quote as being untenable right??

Yes, I agree some will just change their vote despite their initial mistake. But others would rather continue the lie than admit they were wrong to begin with. I guess that is human nature. It happens on PoFo all the time. You can publish an article, stat whatever that proves your opponent is wrong but they still would rather sealion than admit they were wrong with that facts staring them in their face.

Also I guess it depends on how invested a person is on Trump. Those who were abliviant on him when voting for him in 2016 are less likely to vote for him in 2020 I suspect. And those who were the most vocal and continue to be so today will more likely vote for him regardless whatever shit he does between now and November.

[Finfinder]

What I found untenable is that "voting against Trump = admitting they had voted in an idiot and they were duped"

Even if they are vocal in supporting Trump, they can still just vote someone else in the polling station. These two are completely separate acts and I am sure at least some American voters are capable of doing that. What prevents this from happening is only the said people's intelligence.

That falls pretty flat and hollow because the flip slide would be admitting you voted for Hillary Clinton or just thrown away your vote. Hillary Clinton is the poster child for virtue and non corruption.

216 federal judges that will follow the US Constitution including 2 Supreme Court justices is winning.

The first step to understanding pro-Trumpers is to realize that they don't believe literally anything that came from an anonymous source, or that was investigated and went nowhere.

If you can wrap your mind around that, as crazy as such things may be... then you might be able to understand.

Yep. In other words if you add facts to the ridiculous lies and two sets of rules espoused here, their only answer is to call you a racist and cultist.

[Patrickov]

That falls pretty flat and hollow because the flip slide would be admitting you voted for Hillary Clinton or just thrown away your vote. Hillary Clinton is the poster child for virtue and non corruption.

Rest assured that I despise throwing the vote, as long as the choice is not suppressed (like what happens in North Korea or (?) Iran).

But more importantly, "what's then was then, what's now is now" (quote from Mencius). How people think it is now should be independent of how people think it was in 2016.

I had done both sticking to my vote for several elections, and changing my vote across different elections. I don't understand why some people have to make a big deal out of either -- it's the candidates who should worry, not us.

[Finfinder]

Rest assured that I despise throwing the vote, as long as the choice is not suppressed (like what happens in North Korea or (?) Iran).

But more importantly, "what's then was then, what's now is now" (quote from Mencius). How people think it is now should be independent of how people think it was in 2016.

I had done both sticking to my vote for several elections, and changing my vote across different elections. I don't understand why some people have to make a big deal out of either -- it's the candidates who should worry, not us.

You are confused it's not that Trump doesn't deserve any criticism it's the lack of criticism when the political rival is the same or worse. Absolutely past precedence is an indicator of future precedence.

How different was it in 2016? The big difference is we don't have the sitting president spying on their political rivals and trying to rig the election. We do know however, what low depths the left will go to win an election, and it's not based on the merits of their policies.

[Patrickov]

... it's the lack of criticism when the political rival is the same or worse.

Actually this is exactly what is happening in Hong Kong, from the legislative council level all the way down to the representative of the apartment building I am living in. Many conservatives there only vote pro-democratic liberal (and dare I say, sometimes socialist) people only because the other side has become so bad.

I also display pro-Trump tendency exactly for this reason. The only difference between us is that I don't jump to Trump's defense if I either have not enough knowledge of it or I am sure it is untenable.

Absolutely past precedence is an indicator of future precedence.

Member B0ycey also effectively claimed this, which is what I disagree.

(EDIT: Or this point is more about how we predict someone else acts, rather than how we should act. Even one's preference or precedence can change)

How different was it in 2016? The big difference is we don't have the sitting president spying on their political rivals and trying to rig the election. We do know however, what low depths the left will go to win an election, and it's not based on the merits of their policies.

Your concern is duly noted.

[Finfinder]

Member B0ycey also effectively claimed this, which is what I disagree..

Sure but if you are objective lets compare Joe Bidens 40 years of being a career politician. It's short on policy accomplishments and long on personal enrichment. It should matter.

I also display pro-Trump tendency exactly for this reason. The only difference between us is that I don't jump to Trump's defense if I either have not enough knowledge of it or I am sure it is untenable..

It's not so much jumping to Trumps defense when it's so easy to add facts and be rite against this lopsided left leaning propaganda.

[Patrickov]

Sure but if you are objective lets compare Joe Bidens 40 years of being a career politician. It's short on policy accomplishments and long on personal enrichment.

Again your reservation is duly noted. What I can only say is that I have different reservations against this side. Also with Biden's age there's a possibility of him dying in office if he were to be president, so I have less concern of his own ability to lead than whoever he's chosen as mate.

It's not so much jumping to Trumps defense when it's so easy to add facts and be rite against this lopsided left leaning propaganda.

Ignoring those propaganda yourself (and thus kill its chance of being exposed to more people) is one of the best ways to stop it.

Expressing something equally sensational (if not more) is not.

[Finfinder]

Ignoring those propaganda yourself (and thus kill its chance of being exposed to more people) is one of the best ways to stop it.

Expressing something equally sensational (if not more) is not.

My way is to counter it by adding facts. Sadly still people today believe Trump colluded with Russia, despite the years and years and millions of tax dollars spent on debunking this fake made up scam. Propaganda seems to be effective to those who want to blindly consume it.