The Wuhan virus—how are we doing? - Page 52 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Provision of the two UN HDI indicators other than GNP.
Forum rules: No one line posts please.
#15128061
I know you right-winger fascists hate reality.

The Swedish COVID-19 Response Is a Disaster. It Shouldn’t Be a Model for the Rest of the World
The Swedish COVID-19 experiment of not implementing early and strong measures to safeguard the population has been hotly debated around the world, but at this point we can predict it is almost certain to result in a net failure in terms of death and suffering. As of Oct. 13, Sweden’s per capita death rate is 58.4 per 100,000 people, according to Johns Hopkins University data, 12th highest in the world (not including tiny Andorra and San Marino). But perhaps more striking are the findings of a study published Oct. 12 in the Journal of the American Medical Association, which pointed out that, of the countries the researchers investigated, Sweden and the U.S. essentially make up a category of two: they are the only countries with high overall mortality rates that have failed to rapidly reduce those numbers as the pandemic has progressed.

Yet the architects of the Swedish plan are selling it as a success to the rest of the world. And officials in other countries, including at the top level of the U.S. government, are discussing the strategy as one to emulate—despite the reality that doing so will almost certainly increase the rates of death and misery.

Countries that locked down early and/or used extensive test and tracing—including Denmark, Finland, Norway, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Vietnam and New Zealand—saved lives and limited damage to their economies. Countries that locked down late, came out of lock down too early, did not effectively test and quarantine, or only used a partial lockdown—including Brazil, Mexico, Netherlands, Peru, Spain, Sweden, the U.S. and the U.K.—have almost uniformly done worse in rates of infection and death.

https://time.com/5899432/sweden-coronovirus-disaster/

Sweden is now starting to have a Second Wave, incidentally. You right-wing fascists are morons.
#15128077
Sweden’s per capita death rate is 58.4 per 100,000 people, according to Johns Hopkins University data, 12th highest in the world

Virtually all of the 11 countries with a higher mortality rate than Sweden... had enforced lockdowns and other economy-killing measures.

Was that your point? Or do you even bother to make points anymore?

Image
#15128078
Wulfschilde wrote:Trump haters are basically the only people left pushing for (or even enacting) draconian lockdowns. No one else is behind it anymore and the data hasn't supported it for several months at least.


Not true, there are plenty of Trump haters that are against draconian lockdowns. Don't be so quick to bucket people like that, this is one of the big problems with people these days. This sort of language encourages further polarization. I know plenty of Trump haters that aren't freaking out or calling for hard lockdowns. Personally, I am a Trump hater, and am not for shutting everything down (I am for shutting certain things down though and other measures).

Anyway, as a side note, I do find it rather odd that at least in the media they still occasionally bring up the absurd idea that if we lock down, we would eradicate the virus. What virus on earth has been eradicated without a vaccine or herd immunity?
#15128086
^^ Sigh

Science trips a lot of people up. Don't fret Rich. We will protect you from yourself eventually. Adults have always done that for children and those who are not quite exactly.....
#15128198
Rancid wrote:Not true, there are plenty of Trump haters that are against draconian lockdowns. Don't be so quick to bucket people like that, this is one of the big problems with people these days. This sort of language encourages further polarization. I know plenty of Trump haters that aren't freaking out or calling for hard lockdowns. Personally, I am a Trump hater, and am not for shutting everything down (I am for shutting certain things down though and other measures).

Anyway, as a side note, I do find it rather odd that at least in the media they still occasionally bring up the absurd idea that if we lock down, we would eradicate the virus. What virus on earth has been eradicated without a vaccine or herd immunity?

Not sure if Drlee actually thinks you're Rich or if he's mocking you :lol:

Yeah, I am sure you are technically right about this but there is still a strong correlation.
#15128203
Nazism, COVID-19 and the destruction of modern medicine: An interview with Vera Sharav

Holocaust survivor Vera Sharav, renowned champion of human rights and expert in biomedical research ethics, Ms. Sharav offers rare and valuable insights into the public health arena and state of emergency affecting each and every one of our lives. She also draws parallels between what happened in Nazi Germany and what’s happening in our society today — and discusses why it’s more important than ever for us to take a stand.
#15128241
OK folks. Here is a question for those who oppose mask mandates. This is not a hypothetical.

I am on my way to the clinic/feeding project. I am the manager of this clinic. We will have doctors, nurses, and many volunteer college students including medical students there. Should I require them to wear a mask or leave? Should I require those who come for food or care to wear a mask or leave?

Enough of your hypothetical discussion about rights. What is the right thing to do in a real situation?
#15128243
Drlee wrote:^^ Sigh

Science trips a lot of people up. Don't fret Rich. We will protect you from yourself eventually. Adults have always done that for children and those who are not quite exactly.....


I'm not rich.

I don't blame doctors for calling for massive lock downs (not all doctors are calling for this by the way), as their job is to prioritize health. However, there are other parameters than just health that should be considered if one were to truly follow science and not get tripped up by it. ;)

Wulfschilde wrote:Not sure if Drlee actually thinks you're Rich or if he's mocking you :lol:

Yeah, I am sure you are technically right about this but there is still a strong correlation.



Not sure what's up with that. I'm not sure why he suggested that "science trips me up" either. When it comes to decision making of any kind, you don't look at just one metric (COVID infections and death), you have to look at other metrics too (effect to economy, to mental health, school systems, etc), then with that more holistic view, you see if you can come to a balanced solution (i.e. balance priorities). The people are that are calling for lockdowns for an extended period of time are simply looking at one metric in isolation and trying to make decisions on that alone. That's fine, but that is not what a true scientist would do, you have to look at the whole picture. You have to look at the opportunity cost of lockdowns, you don't just jump in to decisions.

The data is all there, and it's not that science is tripping me up. It's really more about policy, what does society at large want to prioritize? Health, economy, school systems, jobs, whatever. The opinions will run the gamut because everyone will attach different weights of priority on these different items. Just because someone doesn't put 100% of the priority on infections/death, does not mean they are "tripped up by science." The science isn't what's even being disputed here (at least for me personally).
#15128339
Sorry Rancid. A lot of posts happened after I wrote my comments about Rich's post. I did not mean that comment to apply to you.

Interesting point. Not a single anti-mask person bothered to discuss my options. Why? Because they know what simple logic and good sense tells me to do.
#15128340
Here's the latest weekly update:

Image

For Red State/Blue State:

US ave. deaths per million (increase, change in rate)
  • Red States 619.4 (21.3, +0.7)
  • Purple States 466.4 (18.9, +2.6)
  • Blue States 786.3 (9.4, +0.3)

If they were included on my weekly chart above, Blue States would rank 11th out of 90 (+0), Red States 24th (+0), and Purple States 35th (-1).
#15128350
Another profoundly idiotic post by @Doug64

Meaningless except to someone ignorant of science, epidemiology and common sense. You know. A Republican Trump supporter.
#15128358
@Drlee

What do you see as errors in the spreadsheet posted by @Doug64?

My two main criticisms is that he uses the wrong numbers to calculate the ratio of flu deaths to Trump virus deaths, and his oddly arbitrary method of divvying up the US states but not, for example, Canadian provinces.
#15128360
Drlee wrote:OK folks. Here is a question for those who oppose mask mandates. This is not a hypothetical.

I am on my way to the clinic/feeding project. I am the manager of this clinic. We will have doctors, nurses, and many volunteer college students including medical students there. Should I require them to wear a mask or leave? Should I require those who come for food or care to wear a mask or leave?

Enough of your hypothetical discussion about rights. What is the right thing to do in a real situation?

I don't believe in absolute rights. I have spoken out against the wicked notion of self ownership. If we allowed individuals absolute self ownership over their own bodies then government would no longer have the right to conscript its citizens or even non citizens. There are obviously situations where masks should be compulsory, but that is a very long way from me supporting extensive compulsory masks for Covid.

As for your situation, I have no where near sufficient information to make a judgement call. But even if I had more information I would probably avoid giving an opinion. Better choices are generally more focussed choices. I'm no extremist libertarian, but in this crisis I am part of a group of people who want much less centralised decision making and much more devolved / lower decision making, but that does not mean complete anarchy. That does not mean no one has authority over others.

My view and I've had this view from very early on, although I have perhaps become more confident of it, is not that we should adopt a herd immunity strategy, but that we will adopt a herd immunity strategy. Will this not result in deaths and perhaps in long term health problems for a significant number of people. Yes but public opinion will shift towards herd immunity anyway. We are already seeing this shift in a number of ways.

The move to herd immunity will not be led by honest courageous people of integrity like myself. No the move to herd immunity will be done under other guises. We saw this with the Black lies matter demonstrations. We see it in France with the big demonstrations after the recent Muslim attack. :lol: Love it they are making a total mockery of the Lock Down as the BLM supporter did earlier. The British government introduced the rule of six as a cover for opening the universities, when cases were already rocketing after the opening of Schools. Now the Labour left Mayor of Manchester has refused to implement the Tear 3 lockdown on Manchester. Its part of the Johnson's latest wheeze "The tears of a clown" policy. Of course Andy Burnham doesn't say he's against the lock down, he just wants more money, but he also sort of says that its not necessary.

Oh no I say to all the lock down lovers its not people like me you need to worry about. There was never enough of us to stop the lock downs. No the people you need to worry about are the one's virtue signalling their lockdown ideological purity.
#15128455
Once again, old people don't give a fuck about COVID even though they are the prime candidate to get killed by it.

At a coffee shop, waiting for my coffee, standing 10ft from other people. Random old dude comes up to me and wants to start chatting. Generally speaking, I don't mind this, but not now dude. Of course, I chatted with him cause I'd feel like a dick if I didn't. :lol:

Porque yo soy Latino man. You talk to elders when they address you. That's just how I was raised. :lol: :hmm:
#15128473
@Rancid

Every single time I run the risk of being infected, it is because some person is talking politely to me with no mask and I cannot find a way to just walk away. My mother’s voice just keeps saying “eso no se hace.”
  • 1
  • 48
  • 49
  • 50
  • 51
  • 52
Undocumented Aliens and Crime

@Unthinking Majority If you have undocumented[…]

It's not over until it's over. Yes, the socialis[…]

Election 2020

Link, please. To my knowledge the Bidens haven't […]

Today's America is very different. The US is a po[…]