Undocumented Aliens and Crime - Page 27 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15128756
Drlee wrote:The farmers vote as a block. The day of the local motel is over. The hospitality market (which employs ton of illegals) is more and more owned by corporate interests. Meat packing, so often the focus of the few raids we have, are owned by powerful interests.

The short answer is that we have come to enjoy our virtual slaves.

Look. POFO is not a repository for very smart people. These captains of industry are very smart and just fine with Trump's demonizing illegals. They don't much care about the wall. Where they draw the line is at his actually doing anything substantial about illegal immigration. Let ICE raid a few major hotels and watch the senate on both sides start talking about "much needed immigration reform". Just the threat of a major push on marketplace enforcement would stagger the economy.

Yes I agree as I've stated.

Republicans do not honor work. They sneer at it. The idolize rich people and fuck anybody who things that work is honorable and should be treated as such. There is no way to treat a minimum wage job as honorable.

The Republicans are a trash party, and the Democrats, while not as morally repulsive, aren't faultless, and have their hands in the pockets of power. At least Obama enacted some reasonable solutions, like deporting people recently coming in the country illegally and allowing Dreamers etc.

So is this what you had in mind @Unthinking Majority ? I hope it was because it that would make you one of perhaps 5% of Americans that have a clue about any of this.[/quote]
The problem is complex. I would never simply remove 10 million illegals all at once even if it were possible, it's not practical or reasonable. Then you have the issue of children and families.

The first priority should be to secure the border as much as possible, while also being humane about it. Once it's as difficult as possible for new migrants to come into and stay in the country illegally (it will never be perfect), then we can figure out what to do with the people already here illegally, and the companies involved. If there's catch-and-release, people should be forced to wear GPS bracelets etc. My priority, whatever the solution, would be to try to get things on the books as much as possible, and end the chaos, which only helps the wealthy.

Permanent residence for many who qualify is a possible solution, if they pass the same kind of criminal checks etc that legal immigrants do. I wouldn't make them eligible for citizenship, that would be their punishment, which is entirely reasonable for people who shouldn't be in the country in the first place, and broke laws to do it. But they could work & live legally & safely.

In a bubble, adults without children who willfully entered I don't feel bad for if they were deported, because that's the risk they took when they broke the law, and any pain is 100% of their own doing. They knew what they were doing, they knew the consequences if they got caught, and they can take responsibility for those actions, no different than anyone else who breaks the law. However, people who came as children or born here I do feel sorry for, because none of this was of their own doing. There's an issue of anchor babies, and families being separated, which is complex. I suppose it depends on how long the children and families have been in the US. Deporting someone who is 17 years old and has been in the US since they were 3 is fraught with compassionate concerns i'm not unsympathetic to. On the other hand, at the end of the day if they are to blame anyone it should be their parents for putting their family in the situation.

Then there is the issue of the whole practicality of it. It could tear the country apart. It could be very hard to remove people etc.

People like Haitians who were given temporary refuge due to hurricanes/earthquakes I would force them to return and allow them to apply as legal immigrants as anyone else can. There's nothing inhumane about that, that's the agreement they made when they came.
#15128763
If there's catch-and-release, people should be forced to wear GPS bracelets etc. My priority, whatever the solution, would be to try to get things on the books as much as possible, and end the chaos, which only helps the wealthy.


Nonsense. Where would they go? Home country? Problem solved. Did you even read what I posted? Obviously not. These people live here and have lived here, some of them, since before you were born. They own homes. They have 401Ks. What in the name of all that is Holy, would your fucking bracelet do for you?

These are NOT CRIMINALS. Get that through your head. Then try to convince your buddy Doug64.

Reagan had it almost right. Broad and fast amnesty with permanent residency is the only answer. The only one. You have simply got to start thinking further. Read what I posted again. Treat this like a college paper. You can't mail it in and the professor will not be happy with Fox News sound bites.

Try. Get out of the shallow end of the pool and try. Here is what will happen.

Once you get your head around the fact that the overwhelming majority of illegals are not at all different from you. Then realize that there is hardly a day goes past that you don't deal with one or two without knowing it. Then think of your own self interest. Ask yourself: Some obscure immigrant law violated 15 years ago or so aside; would my life be better or worse if they left in large numbers?

Now begin thinking like an American. Vote your own interest balanced with what is good for your country. Either way you cut it you will be far better off if you do not fuck with them but rather embrace them and bring them along with you.

You are a smart guy. You are on your way up. Just remember the first rule of being a good person. "When you get to the top send the elevator back down."
#15128796
Pants-of-dog wrote:Yes, exactly.

And since the difference between an implied assumption and a claim are obvious, I accept your clarification.

Ah, so you’re responding to imaginary dog whistles rather than what I actually posted.

Then show me a single “article” you posted that looks at white migrants.

Show me a single “White” country that sends us significant numbers of undocumented aliens.

And explain how this is not part of a racist agenda deliberately spread by Breitbrat colluding with the Trump administration.

Please provide links demonstrating that the Trump administration and Breitbart is colluding to do anything. And no, “talking to” isn’t synonymous with “colluding.” Besides, these days I don’t pay much attention to Breitbart, which is why most of the articles I’ve been posting are from the Washington Times.

And explain how it does not perpetuate the disproven implied assumption that undocumented migrants cause crime.

Are your claiming that there are no criminal undocumented aliens? Because while the study of all of the undocumented aliens in the Arizona prison system for a period of over a decade showed a significantly greater number of undocumented alien convicts, percentagewise, since they aren’t supposed to be here in the first place the “acceptable” level of undocumented alien crime is much lower than for legal residents.
#15128824
Doug64 wrote:Ah, so you’re responding to imaginary dog whistles rather than what I actually posted.


The fact that you did not explicitly write racist stuff, but instead wrote an argument that is only true if we accept certain racist ideas, does not change the fact that you made an argument 5at is only true if we assume certain racist assumptions.

Show me a single “White” country that sends us significant numbers of undocumented aliens.


So we agree that all your examples are of non-white people. Do you see how this perpetuates racism against people of colour?

Please provide links demonstrating that the Trump administration and Breitbart is colluding to do anything. And no, “talking to” isn’t synonymous with “colluding.” Besides, these days I don’t pay much attention to Breitbart, which is why most of the articles I’ve been posting are from the Washington Times.


I provided this evidence. Please see the Newsweek article I cited for you. It is the first post of mine after you dismissed this is as a conspiracy theory.

The WT is probably just as bad when it comes to spreading lies for tue sake of Trump.

Are your claiming that there are no criminal undocumented aliens?


No. I am challenging your implied argument that there is a relationship between undocumented migrants and crime.

Because while the study of all of the undocumented aliens in the Arizona prison system for a period of over a decade showed a significantly greater number of undocumented alien convicts, percentagewise, since they aren’t supposed to be here in the first place the “acceptable” level of undocumented alien crime is much lower than for legal residents.


We already discussed the flaws in that study.

If your only support for your racist argument comes from a single flawed study, then your racist argument is probably wrong.
#15128929
Drlee wrote:Nonsense. Where would they go? Home country? Problem solved. Did you even read what I posted? Obviously not. These people live here and have lived here, some of them, since before you were born. They own homes. They have 401Ks. What in the name of all that is Holy, would your fucking bracelet do for you?

The issue with catch and release is that when you release them they simply disappear into the US. GPS bracelets would prevent that.

People get caught sneaking through the border illegally, and when they're caught many make an asylum claim, which is their right, and then are released into the interior. Many of them aren't refugees but rather economic migrants, and they know this and that their claim will likely be rejected after its processed, so they just disappear.

These are NOT CRIMINALS. Get that through your head.

The vast majority aren't drug dealers or sex traffickers obviously. But if you enter illegally, or work illegally, or don't pay proper taxes etc., then yeah actually you're a criminal. If Trump evaded taxes he's be called a criminal, and rightfully so.

Many of these people are economic migrants. They aren't refugees. I have no problem with economic immigrants, or refugees. Make a claim, your application will be processed. If your application is accepted go on in. If it's rejected then you're not allowed in. This is the same process as every other western country, and are far more generous and compassionate than the countries these people are leaving.

Reagan had it almost right. Broad and fast amnesty with permanent residency is the only answer. The only one. You have simply got to start thinking further.

As I said, that may be correct.
Read what I posted again. Treat this like a college paper. You can't mail it in and the professor will not be happy with Fox News sound bites.

I don't watch FOX News or any other trash news.

Once you get your head around the fact that the overwhelming majority of illegals are not at all different from you.

I'm not trying to dehumanize them. A person who breaks the law and commits social security fraud and tax evasion etc. That's the difference between they and me. I get equally PO'd when I go to a white mechanic who says he'll waive me the sales tax if I pay with cash (under the table).

Then realize that there is hardly a day goes past that you don't deal with one or two without knowing it. Then think of your own self interest. Ask yourself: Some obscure immigrant law violated 15 years ago or so aside; would my life be better or worse if they left in large numbers?

Now begin thinking like an American. Vote your own interest balanced with what is good for your country. Either way you cut it you will be far better off if you do not fuck with them but rather embrace them and bring them along with you.

I'm not an American, but this stuff happens in my country too. If there's amnesty it will be for what you say: economic reasons, family unification, compassionate concerns, and issues of practicality. Along with the rule of law, you have to balance all of these issues and come up with practical solutions.
#15128930
As long as the undocumented aliens haven't committed any crime (aside coming to the country illegally), I think a program should be established to allow them to become legitimate citizens of the U.S. or to at least work legally here in the U.S. I think a pathway to citizenship and working legally in the U.S. is the solution for these undocumented aliens.
Last edited by Politics_Observer on 20 Oct 2020 20:31, edited 1 time in total.
#15128932
The problem with this issue is you get accused of being an racist if you dare even deport anyone and enforce the law or even support that. Biden was attacked during debates by moderators because the Obama admin deported a lot of people who crossed over illegally. And then on the other side you have an admin that bans Muslims and locked kids in cages and says all sorts of racist stuff.

The whole convo has been taken over by radicals and racists.
#15128933
Politics_Observer wrote:As long as the undocumented aliens haven't committed any crime (aside coming to the country illegally), I think a program should be established to allow them to become legitimate citizens of the U.S. or to at least work legally here in the U.S. I think a pathway to citizenship and working legally in the U.S. is the solution for these undocumented aliens.


If you can't practically deport them, you might as well make them permanent residents. I wouldn't give them a pathway to citizenship, unless they came as children or were born here and did no wrong.
#15128934
@Unthinking Majority

If you have undocumented aliens commit a crime (aside from coming to this country illegally) then yes, you obviously want to deport them given that they have demonstrated that they would not follow our laws once in the country. I don't think that makes anybody racist. That's just using a bit of common sense. You don't want immigrants coming to the country who will engage in illegal activity once here.
#15128941
Politics_Observer wrote:@Unthinking Majority

If you have undocumented aliens commit a crime (aside from coming to this country illegally) then yes, you obviously want to deport them given that they have demonstrated that they would not follow our laws once in the country. I don't think that makes anybody racist. That's just using a bit of common sense. You don't want immigrants coming to the country who will engage in illegal activity once here.

I never understood the whole deporting thing, they will certainly just recross the border.
I think hard labor camps for the men, and sweat shop for the ladies.
I would say just shoot them, but that is a bit harsh.
#15128951
@Oxymoron

Oxymoron wrote:I never understood the whole deporting thing, they will certainly just recross the border.
I think hard labor camps for the men, and sweat shop for the ladies.
I would say just shoot them, but that is a bit harsh.


You say your family immigrated from Ukraine. I am assuming Ukraine has a Russian population. I detect a bit of Soviet style problem solving solutions and Russian in you.
#15128955
Politics_Observer wrote:@Oxymoron



You say your family immigrated from Ukraine. I am assuming Ukraine has a Russian population. I detect a bit of Soviet style problem solving solutions and Russian in you.

:D Refugees actually, you can take the Comrade from the Soviet Union but you cannot take the Soviet Union out of the Comrade :D
#15128957
Pants-of-dog wrote:Or, address the root causes of migration.

But I understand why the US does not want to do that.


Root cause is an undefended border, ample economic prospects and lack enforcement.
#15128961
Politics_Observer wrote:@Oxymoron

I am assuming you are an American citizen now though and probably run and own your own business here in the states.



Yes a good cover, :D For Comrade :lol:
Cold war is not over muahahahahahaha

Dear American government who is reading this, I am just joking.
#15128964
@Oxymoron

The average American gets along well with most Russians in my opinion and has nothing against Russia or the Russians. Russians are viewed as pretty much like any other European immigrant who comes to the country. Nobody cares about the Cold War.
#15128967
Politics_Observer wrote:@Oxymoron

The average American gets along well with most Russians in my opinion and has nothing against Russia or the Russians. Russians are viewed as pretty much like any other European immigrant who comes to the country. Nobody cares about the Cold War.


That is right I am just your average American Joseph St... I mean Stanely Joseph Stanely, (yeah thats the ticket) :excited:
#15128969
Or, address the root causes of migration.

But I understand why the US does not want to do that.


Invade and overrun the cartels?

Place liberal and freely elected governments in these countries?

It is incorrect to blame the US drug market for all of the troubles of these countries. Many have no cartels at all.

No POD, this problem has to be solved here. That is unless you want to embrace colonialism or....
#15129033
Drlee wrote:The cold hard fact of life is that if all of the illegals left tomorrow it would simply destroy our economy and throw us into a deep depression. If they left their minor children behind, and many would of course, there would be a disaster of Biblical proportions.

No it wouldn't. There would be transitional costs, but one of the virtues of a strong market economy is that it can adjust and it can adjust quickly to changed input parameters to the economy, whether those changes come through external effect or internally generated from government policy.

Time and time again we have to put with this liberal doom mongering drivel. We had this same nonsense before World War I. The Liberals said we couldn't have a war because there was so much economic interdependence. They said the economies would collapse if we tried to go to war. But Europe's economies durability was way beyond what the Liberals predicted. Yes the Russian economy did collapse in 1917 and Germany's economy was in bad pretty shape by 1918 but this was on a time scale nothing like the predictions of the Liberal doom-mongers.

I was a hard British Remainer, but yet again we had the same doom mongering nonsense about Brexit. Its all such nonsense because if its something that the Liberals want like Scottish independence or Shutting down Germany's nuclear power stations, then Liberals are exposed for the lying dishonest hypocrites they are. Economic rationality soon is thrown out the window the moment it inconveniences the Liberals. Scotland is far more interdependent with the rest of the UK than Britain is with the EU, yet the SNP support Scottish independence but oppose British independence.

This is modern degenerate Liberalism in a nutshell, remove the illegal aliens, economically unthinkable, but nearly the whole work force on to an endless Covid holiday with full pay - oh no problem.

Removing the bulk of the US's illegal aliens is certainly a big maybe even an impossible political problem, it might well be a difficult law and order problem, it could cause severe emotional distress and hardship. Arguably its a difficult ethical or moral problem, but as an economic problem its really quite modest.
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