Cuba has proven that capitalism and technology are failures - Page 106 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15130352
Sivad wrote:Yeah, the bar should be set at just slightly above the absolute worst tyrannies in modern history, that's a good standard to go by... :knife: :lol:


This is a strawman.

Comparing Cuba to what it was before makes perfect sense, since the two examples share the same history, material conditions, and other factors that make the comparison useful.

The same can be said for comparing Cuba to other Caribbean nations and Central American nations: they share enough common characteristics that a comparison is actually useful.

The trope of comparing Cuba to the US, as most right wing conservatives such as yourself do, is the only play you have. But that fails for two reasons: 1. the US has a very different history, making the comparison crappy, and 2. Cuba actually can achieve the same or better results than the US! despite this radically different history and material conditions.
#15130354
Rancid wrote:how does Cuba prove technology is also a failure?

By having better actual lives than people do in rich countries with all their unbelievable amounts of gadgetry and chemicals.

The first page mentions the discovery of "the Canadian teenage tourists" who are obese, wearing logo clothing, and talking about how anxious they are to get back to their ultra-realistic simulation games and fast food.

Pants-of-dog wrote:The trope of comparing Cuba to the US, as most right wing conservatives such as yourself do, is the only play you have. But that fails for two reasons:

There's an important third reason.
3. The USA is a huge, pillaging nation that dominates the world via unfair trade practices and military attack. Cuba, with 10 million people on an island, can never become this. Nor can Canada or the Virgin Islands. But Cuba chose "not to" help carry the bullies coat for him.
#15130357
QatzelOk wrote:By having better actual lives than people do in rich countries with all their unbelievable amounts of gadgetry and chemicals.

The first page mentions the discovery of "the Canadian teenage tourists" who are obese, wearing logo clothing, and talking about how anxious they are to get back to their ultra-realistic simulation games and fast food.


Got it, yes, I think I agree with this then. Technology has paradoxically isolated us, even though it is supposed to make it easier to connect. As such, we can consider it a failure.
#15130365
Rancid

I will ignore the capitalism part.

My husband, up to this year, has been going down to Cuba two or three times a year for a decade. On his first trip, he found kids downloading music and films. Their issue wasn't a lack of gear, it was poor Internet service. He goes down to set up schools for deaf people. Computers etc are a necessity.

Farmers don't use tractors etc but they would if they could get them.

Now on the side of the island that's a marine Bay has one of the healthiest coral reefs in the world because they can't use chemicals, and the bay is protected from America's run off
#15130371
QatzelOk wrote:So only super-high intelligence people can thrive in the USA (it's tents and crapping on sidewalks for everyone else) while ordinary non-STEMS can thrive in Cuba?

And XogGyux is one of the "smart ones" from an island of mostly dummies?

Do you agree with Julian's assessment, XogGyux ?

Do you remember "other Cubans" as being "dumb?"


I happen to really like Cubans. In general.

One of my favorites. A great chess Grandmaster Jose Raul Capablanca.

An intuitive player that changed the game of chess forevermore.

I like Alejo Carpentier. I like many figures of Cuban history. Dummies they are not.

But the Miami exiles have been waiting for the socialism Castro style to have died a quick death as soon as the bearded one croaked in November of 2016.

It is going on five years next November. Are they going to spend money on an invasion? They need google and What's App. The Mexicans complain about Cubans in Merida Mexico. They are used to not paying rent in Cuba and when they move to Mexico and are stuck with capitalist realities like you got to pay your rent on time every month and your electricity bill, water bill, food bills, gas bill, transportation on shit Mexican low wages of exploitation? Their dreams of capitalism are turned to dust and they want to go to the USA and get government handouts. But the Trump administration thinks living under Communism is bad but not enough to give you socialistic welfare help from the USA. They think the newer Cubans are fakers trying to get a piece of the American dream without doing the Mexican deal of 14 years and thousands of dollars paid to immigration lawyers waiting around for background checks and working without a social security number.

The Dream.....in capitalism. They don't want Mexican capitalism. Low wages and high rents. They want American or European capitalism. With some real help for denouncing the horrors of oppression from the dead grave of the Bearded Communist nationalistic dude Fidel.

My Cuban lady friend born in Havana, November 28 1988 says she is trying Spain. She had a brother who has three passports and the Spanish one is the best at free health care, free education and getting a steady job with benefits versus becoming bankrupt in the USA with no real health coverage for immigrants via Trumpcare.

She also doesn't have to struggle with being shot by cops or her brother either since she is a Black Cuban and watches George Floyd videos of American Cops and says, "Mierda. Matan gente negra como chiste alla. Y tengo que hablar el ingles bien. Mejor la Madre Patria." :lol: :lol:
#15130614
Tainari88 wrote:The Mexicans complain about Cubans in Merida Mexico. They are used to not paying rent in Cuba and when they move to Mexico and are stuck with capitalist realities like you got to pay your rent on time every month and your electricity bill, water bill, food bills, gas bill, transportation on shit Mexican low wages of exploitation? Their dreams of capitalism are turned to dust and they want to go to the USA and get government handouts.

I am happy to hear that Cubans in Mexico find the system there exploitive and dumb. :lol:

As a recent immigrant to North America, you can ignore anglo-american capitalist realities for a while (the exploitation and the dumbness), as you get drunk on all the power from the gadgets that are at your fingertips - cars, credit cards, google watches, and non-stop movies and sitcoms (the soundtrack of isolated consumption).

But when the cheap thrill of gadgets wears off, you find yourself looking into the abyss of a non-existent community, and lots of scared bungalow-dwellers with few human-interaction skills. All that's left is Schadenfreude - the joy in other people's pain.

And this is why all the people who came here before you had already been "assholed" before you arrived. Their families mostly all went through the same process of aspiration - consumption - hangover - bitterness.
#15130658
@QatzelOk the issue with Mexicans and Cubans in this city I live in? It is about Cubans not getting the system in Mexico and the Mexicans not getting why the Cubans have such a fucking hard time paying bills like rent and electricity. I tell them, "Cubans don't have the pressure of paying huge rents. If they had to do that in Havana on their low American dollar equivalents? they could not live. What the USA propaganda doesn't say is that Cubans don't really pay rents. So they are not used to the pressure that poses for producing a certain amount of income a month. And Mexico is not Spain. If you are a citizen of Spain and are laid off the rent is going to be paid through certain social welfare programs. Mexico won't pay a damn thing for you. You are truly screwed in Mexico if you don't pay rent. Most Mexican families have paid off legacy homes. They live in the dead Auntie's house, or grandparents, or parents, etc and if they pay rent they try to afford it piling a whole lot of people into the place to share the costs. Cubans find it oppressive because they say to me, "that damn pressure of producing the $8500 pesos a month in rent is awful. It makes you realize you can work your entire life and never have anything here." I reply to them, "You did not realize that is what Latin Ameican capitalism is about? Rent pressures and no savings and low wages and there are tons of shit in the stores to buy of every brand but no money to pay for it. That is capitalism. You did not know this?" They did not know. They bought a bunch of lies about easy living. There is no easy anything. And the love of community the Cubans have for their families and their sense of socializing is way more important to them in general than acquiring a lot of wealth.

I think there is a happy medium. People should be able to have a decent house and their little things and some luxuries. But nothing exaggerated. The emphasis should be on love and family and relationships, excellent educations and full human development. Culture, dance, music, sports, festivals, museums, projects and so on...and a modest cute and clean home with a washer and a functional and decent fridge and stove, and some dishes and pretty little items. One doesn't need a lot to live well. Just to put the emphasis in human relationships.

If you want to live the lifestyle of a Las Vegas Liberace type ostentation? I think your head is full of shit anyway. That is just me. Lol. :lol: :D
#15130705
QatzelOk wrote:
But when the cheap thrill of gadgets wears off, you find yourself looking into the abyss of a non-existent community, and lots of scared bungalow-dwellers with few human-interaction skills. All that's left is Schadenfreude - the joy in other people's pain.


I guess there's nothing like desperately hustling for octopus rations to feed your family and trying to stay one step ahead of the chivatos on every corner to keep you grounded, eh? :lol:
#15130707
Rancid wrote:Got it, yes, I think I agree with this then. Technology has paradoxically isolated us, even though it is supposed to make it easier to connect. As such, we can consider it a failure.


I don't know if that makes technology the problem, it's more like we failed at technology than technology failed us.

I wonder if there was like a Qatz caveman way back in the day that was all like 'fuck fire, we used to all group spoon every night before some fucker invented this fire thing and now our society is all schadenfreuded up and shit' ?
#15130962
Tainari88 wrote:What the USA propaganda doesn't say is that Cubans don't really pay rents. So they are not used to the pressure that poses for producing a certain amount of income a month.

And it is both the pressure of trying to "make rent" (or "make car payments if you live in the suburbs, like 80% of North Americans) is what breaks people here more than any other negative feature of our system.

By having to work 40 or 50 hours a week, you have no time to develop a community or to interact freely with a network of friends. So if you fail economically for any reason, there is no community to make everthing better again.

So things get worse, which forces you to work even harder, resort to crime, or just give up and take pain killers until you don't feel "the pressure" that the masters - especially mass media masters - keep throwing your way. Alone, broke, but importantly, with no access to the network of millions of people living within kilometers of your house.

Some Cubans I met (working in tourism) complained about not having certain consumer durables. But they certainly didn't complain about what they do have - that is, the time to talk to foreigners about not having those non-essential consumer goods. And the well-developed communities to make those consumer durables relatively unnecessary.

Sivad wrote:I wonder if there was like a Qatz caveman way back in the day that was all like 'fuck fire, we used to all group spoon every night before some fucker invented this fire thing and now our society is all schadenfreuded up and shit' ?

I can't speak for fire here, but I can confirm your "Qatz pattern" when it comes to "longer spears" technology. Longer spears allowed "advanced" human bands to drive large mammals to extinction in a few continents.

This meant that a major source of food was hunted to extinction within a few generations of one single tech. And beyond their "human food value," these large mammals had ecological purposes that continue to haunt us in the present.

The extinction of such an important food source may have driven the first human genocides as well as disrupted the settlement patterns of several traumatized generations of humans.

(here is a short reading list if you're authentically interested in human survival)
SAPIENS
A Short History of Progress
Civilized to Death
#15131214
QatzelOk wrote:By having better actual lives than people do in rich countries with all their unbelievable amounts of gadgetry and chemicals.

The first page mentions the discovery of "the Canadian teenage tourists" who are obese, wearing logo clothing, and talking about how anxious they are to get back to their ultra-realistic simulation games and fast food.

Are they having better lives?
Funny how you sit on your 1st world country, with your 1st world country's salary, and gadgets, and cars, and clean water, and climate control, and computers, and the internet, and fresh food and you come here lecturing of how these people have it good for them :lol: . Ridiculous.
Go ahead. Ask the Cubans if they actually prefer their situation over yours :lol:
There is no virtue in being forced to live in misery for the sake of it.
#15131484
skinster wrote:https://twitter.com/bellybeastcuba/status/1321447419314343937?s=20


I 100% agree with lifting socialism although don't for an instance believe this is going to fix anything. At best, the blockade is responsible for a minuscule amount of Cuba's problems.
I agree with lifting it, not because I think it will change anything in cuba, it won't, but because finally this long-held excuse of "because of the blockade" will crumble for what it is, a cheap idiotic excuse.
Through the years, despite socialism, cuba have managed to find dozens of trade partners, they have had hundreds of companies dip their feet ankle high into the cuban economy and at the end of the day they end up getting burned. Cuba is not a reliable partner, the second they see something they don't like they run away and start claiming that their partner was doing something bad, they don't pay (seriously, they are fucking bad at paying), etc. Too unstable, too much of a crybaby to do business with. Very attractive so everyone comes with the "high-risk high reward mentality" but seldom do they get the "high reward" end of the saying.
Then there is the issue of the stealing society. Cuba is a society of thieves. Ask any cuban what is "resolver" and they will jiggle. Resolver roughly means "make ends meet" in a sort of cuban way. And it is an ephamism for anything from buying something in the black market to flat out stealing something. Don't get me wrong, I am not judging the population for this... this is a failure of the goverment. My mom "resolvio", my grandfather "resolvio", my dad "resolvio" etc. You cannot survive there without this. However, this is a huge chicken and the egg dilema for any legitimate business. How can a hotel company conduct business there if all their service employees are constantly steeling toilet paper and their secretarial staff stealing copier paper? In part they do it by paying shit $$ to those employees (which of course perpetuates the steeling).
They can blame all their perils on the blockade... ridiculous but hey... it has worked so far :lol: . Take it down, I agree 100% with that. I would love a Biden president following the steps of Obama and trying to undue all this stupidity that is giving the Cuban government so many excuses and painted it as a victim...
#15131660
XogGyux wrote:Are they having better lives?
Funny how you sit ...

I sit in the country where I was born. But you're right, that I currently have a pretty good deal.

But my posting on this forum is not about promoting the fact that I personally am living well right now.

I also don't want to "force a political or economic system" on anyone else, but rather, just comment on what I have seen, and this is often colored by what I have read previously. They feed into each other - seeing and reading - and conversing on this forum with other people interested in discussing the same subjects is a continuation of that.

I find you waste too much time questionning the motives and lifestyles of people posting on this thread, rather than trying to look more at the subject in the abstract - using real-world examples to help understand and evaluate theory.
#15131721
QatzelOk wrote:I sit in the country where I was born. But you're right, that I currently have a pretty good deal.

But my posting on this forum is not about promoting the fact that I personally am living well right now.

Is that right?
You are the guy that drove a toyota corolla twice and come write about how insufficient is the downforce and drag coefficient of the left carbon fiber wing on the F1 racing car and then get annoyed when people point out not only that you are wrong, but that you really have very little qualifications to be doing the assessment to begin with.
How many times have you given birth in a Cuban maternity hospital? How many times did you call an ambulance? How many nights you spent in a hospital, how many nights have you spent in a Cuban ICU? How many MRIs of your brain did you need while visiting Cuba? What school in Cuba taught you or your children? How many hours without electricity did you spend? How many without water?
You see... anyone can enjoy 2 weeks on a safari in Africa without a nice warm water shower, drinking from muddy waters, being eaten alive by mosquitoes and other insects, and having 2 weeks of dysentery. They might still enjoy that crappy trip just because they get to take a picture with the elephants and be a "god" to the local tourist's guides. But the moment that the reality of living in the middle of the savannah or jungle for the rest of your live in such a jungle, you would go mad quicker than Robbie Williams in Jumanji.
The same thing applies to Cuba. It is not that people cannot learn to be happy. People can be happy with far less than Cuba people have... after all it would be much hubris to think that happiness was invented in modern times by us. I promise you they have been plenty of poor people living in the most primitive and horrendous conditions that in one way or another they have learned to be happy. But don't confuse human resilience with system success. The Cuban system is an utter failure and if the picture of 10people in a tiny improvised raft in the middle of the fucking ocean is not proof enough... then you are simply broken.

I find you waste too much time questionning the motives and lifestyles of people posting on this thread, rather than trying to look more at the subject in the abstract - using real-world examples to help understand and evaluate theory.

You've got to be kidding me. This didn't seem to bother you much when you were calling me a greedy motherfucker...
I agree with you, motives shouldn't be part of the discussion. Just facts... something that you seem to have a rather flimsy relationship with.
And yes... discussing this nonsense is almost a big waste of time. But if I can help to educate anyone that might come across this thread in the future, I am glad to do my service.
For instance, let Cuba's cult of personality towards Fidel be a warning short of those dummies falling asleep to the tune of the Donald. :knife:
#15131784
XogGyux, everyone is glad that you're doing well, and that you are doing better than your family was when it had less access to resources. Sin Embargo...This thread isn't really about how well you are doing. It's not a "get rich, marry a trophy bride, and drive a Ferrari" thread.

But your lifeline doesn't prove anything about Cuba's system because rich countries receive resource-needing immigrants from poor countries with every type of system that exists.

There's nothing particular about Cuba's system when it comes to fueling emigration to richer countries.

You can hammer this all you like, but at the end of the day, you are a poor debater with an axe to grind.
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