Edward Snowden gets permanent residency in Russia - Page 7 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15130885
@Politics_Observer

So your source to exonerate the government is from the government? :lol:

And sure they need to extend blame to Snowden because someone has to be the fall guy. I have explained why he is in Russia. It isn't by choice. I have explained why he had a varierty of classified material. Because he wouldn't have had time to cypher all relevant material. And I have explained the American source! So the data never left your shores to cause danger. And rather than address the main cause for all this (you know the spying on civilians), you parrot propaganda doublethink. This was never about lives being saved. And lives were never at risk. But you fall for this and have backed a horse. So there is no hope for you. Believe what you like. Those who know the truth know what you speak is BS. And something tells me you will be alone on your opinion on PoFo at least.
#15130905
Politics_Observer wrote:but you can't choose your own facts


This is exactly what you're doing.

Politics_Observer wrote:Snowden is staying in Putin's Russia, Putin, the very man paying bribes to the Taliban to kill U.S. troops in Afghanistan.


This was a made-up story too. You really should not be so gullible towards everything you're told by your authorities, since more often than not, they're lying.
#15131001
@skinster

Yeah, really nice authoritative source you have there skinster :lol:

@B0ycey

Well I provided three sources of information, 2 of those sources not from the government and a third source from a government investigation which is accurate. The investigation was not a white washing or a cover up. I mean I know you want to believe that, but it wasn't. This was information provided to members of Congress so they can be aware of the damage, if any, caused by Snowden. It seems no source would be authoritative or acceptable to you because again, you just don't believe the facts presented to you that as an American citizen or really, if he were a citizen of any nation by any nation's standard, he betrayed his country. You want to believe what you want to believe facts and context be damned.
#15131011
Politics_Observer wrote:Well I provided three sources of information, 2 of those sources not from the government and a third source from a government investigation which is accurate. The investigation was not a white washing or a cover up. I mean I know you want to believe that, but it wasn't. This was information provided to members of Congress so they can be aware of the damage, if any, caused by Snowden. It seems no source would be authoritative or acceptable to you because again, you just don't believe the facts presented to you that as an American citizen or really, if he were a citizen of any nation by any nation's standard, he betrayed his country. You want to believe what you want to believe facts and context be damned.


Ignoring that you have skipped past my requests and questions about illegal spying, I have explained he hadn't the means to put anybody at danger once the transition of data had taken place. You are citing irrelevance because the objective of those reports were to discredit Snowden because whether the data he didn't cypher through could have been compromisable or not in the wrong hands is irrelevant. It never went to the wrong hands, it went to US journalists. It seems I am repeating the same thing, explaining why you are wrong and then you parrot the same propaganda doublethink back to me. This is an occasion you have already made your mind up and even if I enlighten you, your comfort is the government line. Research this yourself. I know you are better than this. You are usually a good poster. But on this you don't know what you are talking about I am afraid. And if I respond back to you I will only address the spying aspect of this than the fact no lives were lost on the battlefield from Snowden which you think is relevant for some unknown reason.
#15131021
So you admit that you basically just want to ignore my 3 reliable of source of information that demonstrate my assertion within the context of Snowden being an American citizen and betraying his country. Here is a blog post from The Hill that makes pretty good sense @B0ycey . I put in bold some very important points in this blog post that are actually indisputable facts.

Ira Winkler of The Hill wrote:For some reason, Snowden does not want people to think that he was a Russian agent, and Inglis's comments support that belief. That being said, it is important to realize why this is incredibly irrelevant.

Snowden using valuable time during an interview to contend he was never a Russian agent is an example of him trying to confuse his actions. It in no way changes the damages caused or the crimes committed. It might matter in how he is prosecuted, but it has no bearing on any significant aspect of his crimes.

The agent might or might not be aware that he or she is providing information to a foreign spy depending upon how the operative approaches the agent. An operative is much more of a puppet master than a James Bond.

Many operatives are under diplomatic cover, but some operatives are also under what is referred to as non-official cover (NOCs). Valerie Plame, whose cover was blown by the George W. Bush administration for political retribution, is an example of a NOC. She worked for a variety of front operations around the world, but had primary responsibility to gather information.

Regarding Snowden, Inglis stated during the interview that Snowden's actions were too haphazard to be planned, implying that Snowden was not an official Russian agent. However, the fact that Snowden was not an agent in no way changes the fact that he intentionally committed espionage and treason, and can therefore be considered a traitor. The fact he asked for asylum in Russia makes him a defector.

And for the record, he is not stuck in Russia as he can just walk to the U.S. embassy and turn himself in. (Also, Russian President Vladimir Putin issued a passport to American actor Steven Segal. I'm sure he will give Snowden a passport as well, if he asks.)

Remember, Snowden has specifically stated that he applied for a job at Booz Allen so he would have better access to steal information. That is a clear statement of planning and intent to target and steal information. While it doesn't matter whom his intended customer was, the fact he chose to go to China to turn over information to a third party — when he had the opportunity to meet journalists Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras anywhere else in the world — speaks to his intent.

Snowden's haphazard actions might demonstrate he wasn't an official Russian agent, but the impact was the same. The distinction doesn't matter.
Now, anyone with minimal knowledge would have plotted a cleaner defection. But just because he was not good at it does not mean he is not a traitor and defector.



https://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/ ... r-just-the

Snowden took that job with the intent of stealing information, so that he could get his 5 minutes of fame.
#15131027
Politics_Observer wrote:The intelligence organization hasn't fucked over Americans dude. They are doing their jobs to protect our national security and the lives of our fellow Americans. It's not my problem you can't understand that.

Ohh and @MistyTiger as you mentioned before in a prior post. We all have rules we have to follow and rules exist for a reason. There were good reasons for rules to exist in the case of Snowden and he chose to break those rules and endanger the lives of U.S. troops as two of my articles above each from a different reliable source indicate. Now, you and Godstud can believe what you want to believe, but you can't choose your own facts and the logical conclusions from the intelligence services or the reports provided to the House of Representatives on the damage Snowden caused. These are very good professionals who do their jobs very well.


We Americans are spied on and suspected of being traitors and terrorists, even YOU! Can you not understand that? We are all presumed guilty of wanting to terrorize our homeland and guilty of endangering lives without evidence. I am not a terrorist so why should I be watched ? Why are we being watched? Is it okay to spy on people without any reason? That is illegal. Like no one can be arrested in the US unless there is reasonable suspicion that they committed a crime. NSA surveillance is worse than a peeping tom who watches a girl undress in her room.

Not every rule is reasonable especially if the rule creator is abusing power and misusing resources. Rules can be broken. I do not understand who was paranoid enough to assume that all Americans are capable of terrorism. Can a mentally challenged individual be a terrorist?

There are better ways to watch out for our safety than spying on every single one of us! There could be better gun control legislation, screening questions for visitors and those in airports.

It almost feels like you are part of the CIA or you love them blindly. It just seems odd. :?:

@Politics_Observer You can scream treason until the end of time but Snowden got what he wanted. The program was declared unconstitutional.

Also,

“Although officials have referred to Snowden as a traitor, he was not charged with treason. Nor should he be. The crime of treason requires that a person actually levy war against the US or act to aid enemies with whom the US is at war while showing allegiance to those enemies. Snowden’s disclosure of confidential information does not rise to the level of treason, especially given that his apparent motive was to inform the general public about a surveillance scheme he viewed as “an existential threat to democracy.”

Christina Wells, Jurist.org

Federal judge Marsha Berzon, the judge that made the ruling this week also concluded, according to Business Insider, that there wasn’t sufficient evidence to agree that the NSA phone surveillance program stopped a single terrorist attack.


https://gritdaily.com/nsa-program-expos ... ars-later/
Last edited by MistyTiger on 28 Oct 2020 22:25, edited 1 time in total.
#15131059
@MistyTiger

I am going to bring Bowe Bergdahl into this discussion and the reason I am doing so is because Bowe Bergdahl didn't take his oath seriously and he didn't follow the rules. And like you said, the rules exist for a reason. Bowe Bergdahl relates to this discussion because like Bowe, Manning and Snowden didn't take their oath seriously. They didn't understand the seriousness of what they were getting themselves into. I want to share something a little personal and introduce you to one of my fellow soldiers Master Sergent Mark Allen after he was shot looking for Bowe Bergdahl who wandered off his post during my deployment to Afghanistan.

Image

He recently passed away from his wounds in Afghanistan and his wife had to use a hoist to get him out of bed to dress him. This is what he looked before getting shot.

Image

This is the price that is paid for the kinds of recklessness that people like Bergdahl, Snowden and Manning engage in. See, Snowden didn't understand the gravity or the seriousness of what he was doing. A report given to members of Congress indicate that despite what @Godstud and others here on this forum have said Snowden did indeed have avenues to report any wrong doing by the NSA. The fact is he didn't use those avenues if there was even any wrong doing by the NSA. He got that job at Booze Allen Hamilton because he had his own agenda. He didn't want to serve his country. He thought this was a game and stole highly sensitive information and trotted off to Russia with it.

Manning, also endangered my life as well as the lives of my fellow soldiers when I was in Afghanistan with his reckless disclosures to Wikileaks. Those disclosures gave away troop movements in Afghanistan that our enemies could have used against me or any of the guys in my unit. My sources above indicate that Snowden's data also had sensitive troop movements. I think the NSA has the best interests of protecting this country at heart along with the CIA. I have no doubt they have outstanding professionals working in those organizations and my hats off to them. They are true patriots.

I think American citizens have a lot of misconceptions and notions about the NSA and CIA as well. I am not a victim of any sort. The U.S. government hasn't done anything to me. I don't think the U.S. government has done anything to you either quite frankly speaking. I have been treated fairly and justly by the U.S. government and I have never felt threatened or harmed in any way by the NSA. Bear in mind, the NSA is also subject to the law and our rights guaranteed to us in the constitution just like any one of us. If you or anybody think you can make a case in court against the NSA then make it. You seem very sure of yourselves. I think a court will hear you if you got the evidence.
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Mark_Allen_With_Wife.JPG
#15131062
With respect to your friend, this has nothing to do with Snowden, and is a tactical evasion on your part.

Soldiers put their lives in danger for the FREEDOM of the people in their society. Whereas we obviously don't want people to die, soldiers are there to die to maintain those freedoms, in whatever form they might take.

As a famous American once said:
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants - Thomas Jefferson.


Politics_Observer wrote: Bear in mind, the NSA is also subject to the law and our rights guaranteed to us in the constitution just like any one of us.
Really? So who has been arrested and charged, in relation to their illegal activities?

No one. That's who. That alone shows this statement to be patently false.

The only person charged with anything was Snowden, so you are deluded if you think that Snowden going by traditional routes of complaint would have resulted in anything.
#15131063
@Godstud

It's not a tactical evasion at all. It's relevant. You know Snowden went in there and got sensitive information that endangered the lives of our troops. Bowe Bergdahl who didn't take his oath seriously either and that ended with disastrous results. You know what Snowden did is not a game. This is very serious business. He was gambling with the lives of our soldiers Godstud. You just don't care and want to believe what you want to believe.

See, this what Sun Tzu once wrote that war or basically, national security is a matter of life and death, safety and ruin. See, serious business. Not a game or something like Call of Duty.
#15131069
Aside from government doublespeak, there is no evidence that Snowden's released intelligence(to an American journalist) has endangered any lives.

I find it amusing that you talk of liberty and find it perfectly acceptable that US government agencies infringe on that liberty and even your constitutional rights, without so much as upsetting you.

If a couple soldiers have to die so the rest of the people can be free and well informed, then that is an acceptable price. It is what soldiers are there to do. If you don't like taking risks so your country stays free, then being a soldier shouldn't have been a choice.

It was never "gambling unnecessarily". It was letting the American people know that their government was illegally breaking their constitutional rights!
#15131072
It is so clear to @Godstud , @skinster and myself that what the government did was wrong. Yet no one in the government has come forward to admit the NSA was wrong. They just want to point at Snowden and tar him up. In history, the leaders seem to condemn and point out individuals rather than admit that they played a part in the whole situation and they are not free from blame. We need to hold the government accountable for its actions. We have freedom of speech and freedom to express our grievances.

It is sad that your friend was wounded during his mission. But he chose to be in the military and in harm's way. If anyone, you should blame the military leaders for his injuries. They ordered him to be on the field. He chose to follow orders.
#15131074
@MistyTiger

I stand behind my fellow soldiers and my country Misty. We did our duty and we are damned proud to have served. However, you're right about one thing, their needs to be accountability and that accountability needs to go to Snowden. He violated the trust that was given to him when he was granted a security clearance. He endangered the lives of his country men and our soldiers and needs to face justice.
#15131077
Politics_Observer wrote:He endangered the lives of his country men and our soldiers and needs to face justice.
Maybe... but only AFTER the people who created the entire situation have faced justice. Until time as that happens, I will denounce your blind loyalty.

The people who endangered the lives of the soldiers was the government that put them there, not a Whistleblower.

The government that did illegal things, and breached constitutional rights has yet to be accountable for it. No one, aside from Snowden, has been charged with a single thing. Do not speak of "justice" until that's been dealt with. You are not interested in "justice", only retribution.
#15131326
@Godstud

Bull fucking shit @Godstud . The people who put those soldiers in danger were people like Bergdahl, Manning and Snowden. Those were the motherfuckers that put those soldiers in even more danger. And not only did they put those soldiers in danger, they put Candian soldiers in danger too. Because guess who is part of 5 eyes? That's right Canada. I mean if you and @MistyTiger want to fucking fight, I'll fucking fight. I am ready to go motherfucker. So bring it! I am not backing down from you or MistyTiger. I'll go toe to toe with both of you on this issue. My soldiers are not expendable and I'll thrown down any day at any time with any one of you on this forum when it comes to my country's soldier. Got it motherfucker?! So you and MistyTiger can fucking bring it. Because I am here to tell you, my country's soldiers are worth fighting and dying for to me. Maybe not to @MistyTiger because she is from Taiwan. But I am one of the REAL Americans who actually put his life on the line for my country. I am not backing down from you, @MistyTiger or anybody. I'm ready to thrown down if that's what it takes when it comes to fighting for my brothers.
#15131327
Politics_Observer wrote:We did our duty

No, you did not.

Oath of Enlistment...

"I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Without a UN mandate, the invasion of Iraq was manifestly unlawful and any subsequent order was therefore unlawful. The obligation and responsibility to act against unlawful orders - waging a war of aggression is a war crime - is not exclusive to officers (Article 90 UCMJ) .
Last edited by ingliz on 30 Oct 2020 08:13, edited 1 time in total.
#15131328
@Politics_Observer Canadians soldiers(I served, incidentally) know that they are going to be put at risk. It goes with being a soldier.

You would like to think that security outweighs the freedom not to have constitutional rights violated. It does not, and I'll argue that until the day I die. Isn't a soldier supposed to be fighting for the ideals of a nation, and not just the government?

Answer me this. Who has been charged, aside from Snowden, in relations to this? Please tell me which NSA employees are up on charges for violating the rights of Americans and performing illegal activities. I'll wait.
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