[skinster]

Nobody is in your way [snip]. This is a political forum on the internet. We're just pointing how you're absolutely wrong.


[thunderhawk: stay polite]

[Politics_Observer]

@skinster

[snip] You get in my way, we are going to have problems and we are going to throw down. So, just stay out of my way and leave me the fuck alone. Alright. You want to start shit with people and you start with me I am going to give it right back at you and speak to you in the only language you understand. So, if you want keep pushing it don't be surprised when you people blow up on you. You stay the fuck out of my way and you won't have any problems with me. Pure and simple. And YOU ARE WRONG [snip]. SNOWDEN IS MOTHERFUCKING TRAITOR AND THAT"S ALL THERE IS TO IT.


[Thudnerhawk: Rule #2. Don't insult people. A view can be called foolish, the person expressing it cannot be called a fool. ]

[Politics_Observer]

@skinster

I mean god damn, if you know somebody doesn't like you and you don't like them then just stay the hell away from them. How hard can it be? I'm not the one keeping this going. If you don't stay away from them then you are asking for trouble and you get what you deserve.

[skinster]

Good lords.

[ingliz]

@Politics_Observer

We all know you are emotionally invested in the 'Captain America' persona you constructed around your army service but I think it would be a lot better for you, mentally, if you just treated it as a job you once did and don't do now.

Put it away in a box. You did what you were paid to do and leave it at that.

[MistyTiger]

@Godstud

Bull fucking shit @Godstud . The people who put those soldiers in danger were people like Bergdahl, Manning and Snowden. Those were the motherfuckers that put those soldiers in even more danger. And not only did they put those soldiers in danger, they put Candian soldiers in danger too. Because guess who is part of 5 eyes? That's right Canada. I mean if you and @MistyTiger want to fucking fight, I'll fucking fight. I am ready to go motherfucker. So bring it! I am not backing down from you or MistyTiger. I'll go toe to toe with both of you on this issue. My soldiers are not expendable and I'll thrown down any day at any time with any one of you on this forum when it comes to my country's soldier. Got it motherfucker?! So you and MistyTiger can fucking bring it. Because I am here to tell you, my country's soldiers are worth fighting and dying for to me. Maybe not to @MistyTiger because she is from Taiwan. But I am one of the REAL Americans who actually put his life on the line for my country. I am not backing down from you, @MistyTiger or anybody. I'm ready to thrown down if that's what it takes when it comes to fighting for my brothers.

Whoa! Looks like someone is very riled up. We were not insulting soldiers. We are saying that you are buying into leadership lies because no one wants to admit that Snowden uncovered a truly bad surveillance program that never should have existed. He probably took the other intel as leverage in his fight against the power hungry, paranoid NSA/CIA folks.

I was born and raised in the US, not Taiwan. I never needed a naturalization certificate.

[Politics_Observer]

@MistyTiger

It's cool Misty, I totally understand. I just wanted to make sure the lives of my soldiers are respected and not treated as expendable. I understand where you are coming from and you have my respect. I get riled up when it comes to the safety of our soldiers and the people who put them in jeopardy un-necessarily. It's no fun losing soldiers. Know what I mean? That's part of the game and you will take casualties when ordered into combat, but what gets me riled up is when you have fellow Americans betray their oath and cost the lives of soldiers after the hostilities have started. I. You and I have a difference of opinion on Snowden and that's OK. I just want to make sure at the end of the day the lives of my soldiers are respected by fellow Americans and are not given just a second thought and thrown under the bus. I hope you understand where I am coming from. They are willing to take casualties when necessary but their lives still have value. They are not expendable.

[Patrickov]

I respect you and your opinions, but why would you support a monster like Trump?

He has enabled (not his wish) an anti-China sentiment be set up across the civilized world which the Democrats would struggle to achieve because of their priorities on peaceful engagement.

In any case, Xi Jinping is so big of a monster that I believe it takes someone as monstrous (or, in the view of the CCP themselves, "unpredictable") as Trump to stop him.

I simply see the problem as "peace does not work" because "there is a monster who doesn't read peace". Besides, there is much better check and balance in America than in China or Hong Kong that Trump is easily the lesser evil here.

[MistyTiger]

@MistyTiger

It's cool Misty, I totally understand. I just wanted to make sure the lives of my soldiers are respected and not treated as expendable. I understand where you are coming from and you have my respect. I get riled up when it comes to the safety of our soldiers and the people who put them in jeopardy un-necessarily. It's no fun losing soldiers. Know what I mean? That's part of the game and you will take casualties when ordered into combat, but what gets me riled up is when you have fellow Americans betray their oath and cost the lives of soldiers after the hostilities have started. I. You and I have a difference of opinion on Snowden and that's OK. I just want to make sure at the end of the day the lives of my soldiers are respected by fellow Americans and are not given just a second thought and thrown under the bus. I hope you understand where I am coming from. They are willing to take casualties when necessary but their lives still have value. They are not expendable.

It is NOT cool. You just insulted me by stating that I am NOT an American citizen so my opinion does not matter. Why would I lie? No one else questions my citizenship. I never needed to apply for student visas or a green card.

Why did you have to lash out like that? It reminds me of the past. I am very disappointed in you. You said you had changed from the guy who demeaned me years ago. I am not sure I believe you anymore.

My citizenship should not matter in this debate.

[Politics_Observer]

@MistyTiger

Well, I tell you what MistyTiger, It's not cool that you suggested the lives of my fellow soldiers are worthless to you and that's the reason why I reacted to you the way I did. So, if you don't want to get talked to like, value the lives of other people they will value you. Sounds fair? I am not going to back down from you either becuase you're not miss perfect yourself. If you are going to be an American citizen, you need value the lives of your fellow citizens especially those who go into harms way for your sake.

Because we are not expendable. You need to see my point of view on this and show some mutual respect. Just because you find something inconvenient doesn't mean you get to throw our troops under the bus and I WILL FIGHT YOU ON THAT. Those are my boys. So if you don't want to fight with, you don't treat our troops like they are just a number and expendable. Their lives have value too. You don't look down on those soldiers when they are risking their lives. You demeaned the lives of my soldiers.

Admin Edit: Rule 2 Violation

[MistyTiger]

@MistyTiger

Well, I tell you what MistyTiger, It's not cool that you suggested the lives of my fellow soldiers are worthless to you and that's the reason why I reacted to you the way I did. So, if you don't want to get talked to like, value the lives of other people they will value you. Sounds fair? I am not going to back down from you either becuase you're not miss perfect yourself.

I never said or suggested that their lives were worthless. I was saying that there is no conclusive proof that the leaked intel caused troops to die. Sure, you could speculate about it but that is like making baseless claims based on opinion not cold, hard facts. We would need to see the enemy's playbook and sources to know for sure why they did what they did.

I know I am not miss perfect, another insult. I do not strike out at others just because I feel angry that they disagree with me.

[Politics_Observer]

@MistyTiger

I don't believe you. You were very dismissive about the lives of our soldiers and I posted up a picture of Master Sergeant Allen who was in my unit at the time I was in Afghanistan and he was shot in the head. You didn't act like you gave a damn about him and more concerned about how you were inconvenienced by NSA surveillance. You just gave a shit about Snowden or how you were inconvenienced. We lost other guys in my unit.

We had a soldier named Manning who basically did the same thing as Snowden and directly put my life in danger when I was over there. And that's not cool with me. I am sure it wouldn't be cool with you if you were in my shoes. So, you need to figure out if you want to be on our side or not. I don't apologize for telling you that. Because when it comes to our soldiers I throw down and fight for them because it's very personal to me. You are going to have deal with the fact that people aren't going to always agree with you and get over it.

A lot of the stuff that Snowden leaked was in regards to military information and troop movements.

And there you have it Misty.

On March 6, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Martin Dempsey told Congress:

"The vast majority of the documents that Snowden ... exfiltrated from our highest levels of security ... had nothing to do with exposing government oversight of domestic activities. The vast majority of those were related to our military capabilities, operations, tactics, techniques, and procedures."

Snowden has denied any deliberate effort to gain access to any military information, saying: “They rely on a baseless premise, which is that I was after military information."

https://www.businessinsider.com/snowden ... ?r=US&IR=T

[Patrickov]

Because when it comes to our soldiers I throw down and fight for them because it's very personal to me.

This is exactly where the issue is.

We are usually firmest, or even emotional, about a matter when it affects ourselves or those close to us. You can see how much hate I can have against China apologists or even intellectual members who just happen to be rational on China's rise, to the point that I sometimes intercede in their comments on topics totally unrelated to China. I think you are having a similar view towards American military service and the surveillance program as a whole -- it is next to impossible for you to accept that "some people simply do not and will not understand what and why you think soldiers' lives are NOT expendable AND Snowden's act was treacherous", because of what you and your fellows have suffered during your service.

I won't have any comment on it. Military service is about human lives themselves, and it will be highly insensitive for me to say anything about it.

However, I think the real problem is that we simply have different priorities in our lives. I hate China apologists -- so much that I don't hesitate to say some may need to be killed like Osama bin Laden or Qasem Soleimani if necessary -- because what they advocate will seriously harm the lives of me, my family, and my contemporaries. However, I also know that some of them have seen the dark side of the Western democratic capitalist system so much that they will never believe the Chinese and / or the Socialist one are actually far worse than whatever they suffer from, and I have to live with that.

As such, I think we all should understand that such difference in personal experience and worldview, means that sometimes even the most casual comment can cause belligerence.

To the very least, I do NOT believe Member Godstud and MistyTiger mean to offend you here, even if they might be speaking more strongly or emotionally than they usually do.

[Politics_Observer]

@Patrickov

This is exactly where the issue is.

We are usually firmest, or even emotional, about a matter when it affects ourselves or those close to us.

That's exactly right. My country's front line soldiers who do the real fighting and dying for this country need to know that their are people now in civilian life who care about them and who value them and don't see them as expendable. I know what it's like to be wandering around on patrol in a death trap and to be expendable and to have some REMF (Rear Echelon Motherfucker) leak classified information that puts us in further danger out to the public because they think it is a game and will make them famous. Maybe they are popular in Hollywood far away from the front lines of combat but they are not popular or liked on the front lines where people are fighting to survive and come back home alive and in one piece. That shit is serious business. It's not a game and somebody needs to tell the American public that who have never served in such similar situations and what kind of damage those leaks do to our soldiers on the front lines.

[Politics_Observer]

@Patrickov

Yeah, see here in the US, they have this public debate and they want to debate about privacy and NSA surveillance. But when it comes to protecting our troops who are in harms way serving overseas it's like some members of the public are "OHHH well fuck them! Throw them under the bus. I just care about my privacy! I'm not serving or in danger! Those soldiers are supposed to take casualties even if it's not necessary if they do because of leaks I need to know about because you know they are expendable." So that's how some members of the public are. And that's not acceptable. All too often, people are willing to throw our soldiers under the bus if it conveniences them to do so.

They just want their privacy and if that means throwing our soldiers under the bus in the process so be it. You see, Americans have been insulated from these wars we have recently fought and have no concept what it's like to be out there and so they are distant from that reality that they simply become out of touch of what the real damage those leaks cause. So, they have no idea. They just angry over their privacy. In the meantime, soldiers are fighting and dying to protect them and are just kind left out of the debate and thrown under the bus.

[Godstud]

A lot of the stuff that Snowden leaked was in regards to military information and troop movements.

That's patently false. You seem to imply that the information that Snowden revealed was the same as the information that Manning or Bengahl did, and that's simply not factual. The NSA does not monitor US troop movements. There is no way they would have access to that information.

Please note:
The NSA is responsible for global monitoring, collection, and processing of information and data for foreign and domestic intelligence and counterintelligence purposes, specializing in a discipline known as signals intelligence (SIGINT).

Also, no one was demeaning American troops, or making light of their sacrifices. We understand their sacrifice, but they are putting themselves at risk, and sometimes that results in injury and even death. Military service has risks that every person who joins the military is aware of, and willing to take. If that is in the service of freedom, then that sacrifice is worthy, even if you don't think that upholding the US Constitution(the 4th Amendment) is worthy.

Nationality, is irrelevant to the discussion. Canada is not "Canadaland". That you meant to insult, was obvious, but then doesn't that make it fair game to insult the US of Amerikkka, that is constantly at war with everyone?

[Politics_Observer]

That's not what the generals have been saying @Godstud and they are in a position to know more about what the NSA does than you do.

[Politics_Observer]

@Patrickov

And it's the same thing with Former President Barack Obama who is in a much better position to know what the NSA does and HE DIDN'T GIVE SNOWDEN A PARDON. And there is a good reason for it. You know people like to think they know more about what the NSA does than the generals or Barack Obama did who refused to give Snowden a pardon. But they don't.

[Godstud]

That's a logical fallacy called, 'Appeal to Authority'.

Can you please show some actual evidence that soldiers have died as a result of Snowden's leak? Then you can tell me why defending the US Constitution isn't important to you.


I have never said that Snowden should get a pardon, but I cannot understand how you can defend your country, but not the principles on which it was founded.


You speak of "justice", but are not interested in the NSA being held accountable. You only think the Whistleblower needs to be punished.

[Patrickov]

That's patently false. You seem to imply that the information that Snowden revealed was the same as the information that Manning or Bengahl did, and that's simply not factual.

Not equal, obviously, but if the effects or methodology of these three leaks are similar, then Snowden's act does pose a risk. (From a third party perspective, I think both the intention and the result are important)

As I said, what made Snowden less sympathetic to me was that he chose to flee to Russia. Given that even Julian Assange has not been extradited to the United States yet, this bit is quite some serious overreaction at best. I rather have him stay in, say, Hong Kong.