[Politics_Observer]

I have given you countless sources through this whole thread that talks about testimony before Congress that stated the information that Snowden took was mainly military information. But you don't want to acknowledge those sources. So, what good does it do? And as far as "appeal to authority" I have heard of this term before but the fact remains you really have no idea what the NSA does and on top of that those sources I provided to you indicate that the information he leaked was military information. But you choose to ignore those sources. One of them even being an official document from the House of Representatives. So, it doesn't matter how much evidence I present to you or how authoritative it is, you will never accept it because you want to believe what you want to believe even if what you believe is wrong.

[Godstud]

Soldiers take risks every day. It's part and parcel to the job.

Snowden had no choice but to flee to Russia, who does not have an extradition treaty with the USA. He did not give his intelligence to the Russians, however. He was not safe in Hong Kong.

Assange went to Russia, as well.


@Politics_Observer Not one source you have given has demonstrated that the intelligence that Snowden revealed, cost anyone their lives, and the only sources you feel comfortable presenting are US Government ones, which are extremely biased against Snowden. Forgive me for not wanting to take your government seriously, when it can't even police its own.

You saying some "Generals" disagree, is nothing.

You want to think your country is never wrong, and that it's agencies are infallible and truthful, even when the evidence to the contrary is presented.

I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic - That's part of the oath that US soldiers take, isn't it?

I highlighted, what I think, are important parts.


Snowden was defending the US Constitution, by letting Americans know what the NSA was doing, illegally.

[Politics_Observer]

@Godstud

Soldiers take risks every day. It's part and parcel to the job.

It's part and parcel of the job but you don't betray your country's soldiers and get them un-necessarily killed. I think you are missing that key point there @Godstud . I don't know about you, but I value the lives of my country's soldiers and don't want to get any of them killed un-necessarily due to intelligence leaks by somebody who betrays their oath. I don't imagine Canada just likes to throw away their soldiers lives un-necessarily like that either. I would hope that you would value your soldiers more than that.

[Godstud]

It's part and parcel of the job but you don't betray your country's soldiers and get them un-necessarily killed.

He did not do that. Show me a soldier killed "unnecessarily" and I will show you a soldier in ANY war.

I am not missing a damned thing.

value the lives of my country's soldiers and don't want to get any of them killed un-necessarily due to intelligence leaks by somebody who betrays their oath.

Aren't you, in a way, betraying your oath by defending the NSA, which showed it was an enemy of the US Constitution, by breaching the 4th Amendment?

He broke his oath, to defend the people of the USA, because the NSA was an enemy of the very Constitution it was supposed to uphold.

I don't imagine Canada just likes to throw away their soldiers lives like that.

How were American lives thrown away? You are being excessively melodramatic and overly-protective of soldiers. I get that because you were one, but it's over-the-top.

We have yet to establish that any soldiers lives were actually "thrown away". All we have is some people making claims to that, but presenting no real evidence demonstrating that.

[Politics_Observer]

@Godstud

First off I am no longer in the service. Second off my oath required that I obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me which I did. The interpretation of what constitutes my oath is up to a military court of law, the UCMJ and not my own personal interpretation. I simply did as I was told when I was told and carried out what was spelled out to me as lawful orders by the military. However, if it was clearly and unmistakably an unlawful order defined to me by military law than I am required not to follow it.

That being said, it's very dangerous to decide you will interpret your oath any way you want. The military tells you what your oath means and then you follow that interpretation and uphold it. A military court during your court martial might not agree with what you think your oath constitutes and you can quickly find yourself convicted of a crime, serving time in a military prison and then carry the stain of a dishonorable discharge on your record. You give up your individuality when you become a soldier. That's part of the sacrifice you make.

[Godstud]

@Politics_Observer Snowden was not a soldier.

[B0ycey]

Are we conveniently forgetting that the firesticks went to a US journalist with the instruction to highlight the illegal spying program and not the movement of troops nor were they given to Wikileaks for all to see? Or is that too inconvenient to mention on here because it would upset someones narrative that Snowden had the means to kill troops?

No troops were put in danger from Snowden. Whether the data he passed forward to a US citizen was compromisable or not, once the transfer had taken place, he didn't have the means to put anyone in danger. And more importantly than that, it was his specific intention to not put them in danger anyway. You may as well start blaming the Guardian for putting troops in danger if your only critiea is handling the Intel and not publishing it.

[Thunderhawk]

Snowden was not a soldier.

He was. He got badly injured during training and received a medical discharge. He joined the NSA afterwords.


This is Today's News, a subforum for current events. The topic is Snowden getting permanent residency in Russia.. not the legality or morality of his data leak actions.

[Politics_Observer]

@Thunderhawk

He was. He got badly injured during training and received a medical discharge. He joined the NSA afterwords.


This is Today's News, a subforum for current events. The topic is Snowden getting permanent residency in Russia.. not the legality or morality of his data leak actions.

Well, since the topic is Snowden getting permanent residency in Russia, he might just want to stay over there for the rest of his life and never set foot on American soil ever again. Perhaps he'll have an "accident" like a "slip n' fall" like some past American traitors who defected to the Soviet Union during Soviet times. Or if he does, it was because of a prisoner swap with Russia or a rendition from Russia by the CIA and he is going to be brought back to American soil to face his criminal charges he is currently charged with.

[ingliz]

My country's front line soldiers who do the real fighting and dying for this country need to know that their are people now in civilian life who care about them and who value them.

Why?

[Politics_Observer]

Why?

That's a stupid question to ask. Soldiers like to know they are loved and supported by the country they fight for and are truly valued. They fight harder and better when they know this. You have stated you were diagnosed as a psychopath. Perhaps this is the reason you don't understand this. But anyway, as the moderator @Thunderhawk has said, this is a topic about Snowden's residency. I am assuming he means for us to stay on topic.

[ingliz]

They fight harder and better when they know this.

I can understand why this might apply to a conscript army but professional soldiers choose to do the government's dirty work for pay - It's a job.

expendable

Don't be silly.

Casualty Status as of 10 a.m. EDT October 26, 2020




As to the conduct of the war...

"I witnessed dozens of illegal acts by US fighters who viewed Iraqis as "sub-human". I saw a lot of things in Baghdad that were illegal or just wrong."

— Ben Griffin (Special Air Service) after working with US special forces in Iraq

[skinster]

Well, since the topic is Snowden getting permanent residency in Russia, he might just want to stay over there for the rest of his life and never set foot on American soil ever again.

Again, Snowden did not choose to live in Russia, although I don't expect someone with Trump Derangement Syndrome to accept that. For others reading, Snowden was flying from Hong Kong to Moscow, to Cuba and then onto Ecuador, where he was granted asylum. That was his plan. When this plan was put into action the U.S. govt invalidated his passport and Biden (and John Kerry) took the lead in blocking asylum for Snowden in other countries. Cuba pulled out of their safe passage agreement for this reason (Biden threatened Cuba with much worse than they're currently suffering under the U.S. blockade on the island) and then Snowden was stuck in Russia. This info is explained in that interview Glenn Greenwald did a few days ago with Joe Rogan.

Snowden is the hero in this story, more heroic than the pawns that run around the world destroying countries for a paycheck while pretending they're fighting for freedom.

Soldiers like to know they are loved and supported by the country they fight for and are truly valued.

[Politics_Observer]

@ingliz

I can understand why this might apply to a conscript army but professional soldiers choose to do the government's dirty work for pay - It's a job.

Well, I served in the Army National Guard which is comprised of citizen soldiers. The recent wars were fought primarily with Army National Guard soldiers and not full time regular army soldiers. Once we were ordered to active duty for deployment, we had to go through training first prior to deployment and then actual deploy. We were then under the control of the federal government. Many of the soldier had full time civilian jobs as civilians who deployed to the recent wars. A lot of them joined not simply for college money or benefits but honestly out of a true sense of patriotism, love country and enjoyment in being a soldier.

You don't make hardly any money at all doing one weekend a month drills with the Army National Guard. So, the Army National Guard was like a back door draft. It was the Army National Guard citizen soldier units that did the majority of the fighting and dying in Afghanistan and Iraq. You would also be surprised at how well they did in combat too and adaptive they were.

Many units taking the skills they had in their civilian jobs and applying them to adapt to war time combat. For example, when facing the IED threat, many of them had welding skills and would find scraps of extra metal and armor and weld up extra armor on the unarmored humvees to survive at that time was less deadly IED blasts (that eventually grew more deadlier). The regular army had a younger crowd who didn't know much about life. Army National Guard units tended to have older, more mature and wiser people serving in them.

Now you mention the army "is a job." I disagree. The army is a life. A very hard and rough life. At least that was the way it was when I was serving during war time. Sometimes weeks without a shower while on deployment. At the end of the day you don't fight for pay or money but you fight for your fellow soldiers next to you. They are the ones who will get you home alive.

You also fight for your country. So, you know, being a soldier is not a job, but rather a hard, rough life and it's about love for your brothers and love for your country. That's what it really means to be a soldier. Personally, I think viewing soldiers as mercenaries is the wrong view to take if you want them to fight hard. You want them to fight from the heart. People who fight from the heart make the best soldiers.

We had sometimes had guys who had their legs blown off and returned with prosthetic limbs to fight again after passing Army physical fitness requirements, on one leg or continue serving. The Afghans were amazed by this. So, being a soldier is not just simply a job. The ones who fought on one leg fought from the heart and viewed it as a way of life they didn't want to give up.

[Politics_Observer]

In other news in regards to Snowden, Anna Chapman one time wanted to be Snowden's wife.



Now, of all the guys that Anna could choose from, why would she choose Snowden of all people?


And then there is this news about how Anna Chapman ended up in Playboy

Anna Chapman, the 28 year-old Russian woman who was deported earlier this year after pleading guilty to spying, will appear in the January 2011 issue of Playboy.

According to the New York Daily News, Chapman did not pose for the nude photos the magazine has printed. Instead, her ex-husband provided them to Playboy, which according to Chapman's lawyer, "shocked ... and disappointed" the former spy.

The Playboy photos run alongside an article by John H. Richardson.

This won't be the first time Chapman has graced the pages of a men's magazine: In October she posed for Russian Maxim in a James Bond style photo-shoot.

https://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/i ... in-playboy

[ingliz]

if you want them to fight hard. You want them to fight from the heart. People who fight from the heart make the best soldiers.

Bollocks! Training and discipline makes soldiers. The poorly trained, undisciplined, weekend warrior rabble with *heart* deployed in your pipeline wars were fuck-ups.

[Politics_Observer]

@ingliz

Bollocks! Training and discipline makes soldiers. The poorly trained, undisciplined, weekend warrior rabble with *heart* deployed in your pipeline wars were fuck-ups.

OOOKKKK Their buddy! Discipline and training IS important but that is just ONE or TWO aspects to what makes a good soldier do well in combat. No amount of training can ever prepare you for the real thing. You gotta have heart too. In addition to heart, good leadership helps a soldier's performance. But I think you know that. What do you think of Anna Chapman? Do you think Snowden should have went for it? I mean, he is being charged with espionage and maybe treason here in the U.S. He might as well make it worth his while, right?

[Politics_Observer]

@ingliz

There is an old saying when it comes to combat "We're trained professionals, but the world is full amateurs." Sometimes you will be surprised at how well the amateurs perform because of their unpredictability and sometimes other skill sets they bring to the battlefield.

[Politics_Observer]

@ingliz

Teamwork and unit cohesion is another aspect to good soldiering. Soldiers must be literally willing to die for his fellow soldier next to them and have that strong bond. They most get rid of the "me, me, me" mentality and instead prioritize the "we." This is a reason why the army strips soldiers of the individuality during their training. However, this kind of unit team work and cohesion grows very strong and real during combat. This is why battle hardened units perform better in combat than green units. Part of that reason is they (the green units) haven't totally gotten rid of the "me" mentality. But they lose it they get exposed to combat. They'll see the reality that the only way to survive is stop thinking about yourself and start thinking about your unit and fellow soldiers. My two cents.

[Godstud]

Here's the thing, @Politics_Observer.

If the intelligence agencies and military can point to a specific instance where the information Snowden leaked resulted in harm to the USA, then by all means bring him up on charges related to that event.

I am not convinced, however, that there is any specific instances and that it's all a vague blanket accusation about him "harming the security of the USA". I don't buy that.

I think it's simply an excuse to drive attention away from the reality that the NSA was breaching the US Constitution, and laws, and that by doing this, they avoid any accountability, or responsibility for THEIR wrong-doing. Instead, they charge Snowden with the largest crime they can conceive of and absolve themselves of any responsibility.


I think the information that Snowden released, to the reporter, was not putting any American soldiers "at risk", and this is all a snowjob.