There is No Liberal Socialist Utopia - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15139282
I still don’t think you all get it. It’s not about me or know it all, it’s about a central question. What made the west so belief based gullible and so far no one will even admit it never mind try to explain it.

The doomsday climate predictions have been going since the 1970s when the ‘experts’ predicted a coming ice age and since then the ones carrying it on have turned it into an environmental agenda and become very wealthy from it. Half a century on and you still believe in it all? What makes you cheer on a 1% political elite who tell you they’re going to create a socialist paradise? What makes you think wearing a paper mask you bought from Asda is protection against an airborne virus flu; the one you were told would kill millions and didn’t. You can see the effects of cultural Marxism all around you but you think it’s something to do with the Labour movement in the 1920s, or a right wing conspiracy theory? Over the pond it’s no different. There the polarized opposites have started electing Messiahs and Gods to save them.

This is what I’m getting at as you change the subject, or turn on me and try to make it personal. :)
#15139295
Jeremiah Squatpump wrote:This is what I’m getting at as you change the subject, or turn on me and try to make it personal. :)


The problem is you are telling us what you 'think' we believe rather than listening to us when we explain our position. Nobody has said the the EU is going to be a Socialist utopia. The very existence of the single market makes that argument moot on that regard. And any agendas of the EU need concensus anyway. So for any Socialistic policies to occur this would require an acceptance of some Conservative governments from Hungary and Poland which will never happen. But at the same time despite stalemate you don't see any EU leaders expressing leaving the EU regardless of political affiliation do you. Perhaps that is because despite the disagreements there might be a major factor that all leaders agree to. And that is collectivism generates wealth, security and a leading voice.

As for climate change and Covid19, why do you dispute the science? They don't have a political narrative, they look at information to understand patterns. You can argue the usefulness of models and that they are pessimistic towards the worse case scenario. But I certainly can tell that weather events are more extreme and winters are more milder now than yesteryear so that is experience rather than listening to the accepted narrative to understand what is happening FYI. And Covid19 is not a hoax. And masks most definitely do work as it stops the spread of aerosols. The real debate is whether our actions are worth the costs? That is to say is the cure worse than the vaccine? And in my opinion, by analysising stats rather than the accepted narrative and seeing how the focus is today on cases when before it was deaths, I don't think the cure is better at all. In March the debate was Covid vs the Economy. And today it is Covid vs everything in society. We are basically destroying everything to keep hospitals from filling up when to do that all you needed to do was build up capacity and a recruitment drive. Most of the care for Covid victims could be taught very quickly and the more skilled tasks could be done by spreading nurses and doctors from non essential services. I really do hate the idea that we built the Nightingale hospitals in record time and never used them at all. :hmm:
#15139302
B0ycey wrote:The problem is you are telling us what you 'think' we believe rather than listening to us when we explain our position. Nobody has said the the EU is going to be a Socialist utopia. The very existence of the single market makes that argument moot on that regard. And any agendas of the EU need concensus anyway. So for any Socialistic policies to occur this would require an acceptance of some Conservative governments from Hungary and Poland which will never happen. But at the same time despite stalemate you don't see any EU leaders expressing leaving the EU regardless of political affiliation do you. Perhaps that is because despite the disagreements there might be a major factor that all leaders agree to. And that is collectivism generates wealth, security and a leading voice.

As for climate change and Covid19, why do you dispute the science? They don't have a political narrative, they look at information to understand patterns. You can argue the usefulness of models and that they are pessimistic towards the worse case scenario. But I certainly can tell that weather events are more extreme and winters are more milder now than yesteryear so that is experience rather than listening to the accepted narrative to understand what is happening FYI. And Covid19 is not a hoax. And masks most definitely do work as it stops the spread of aerosols. The real debate is whether our actions are worth the costs? That is to say is the cure worse than the vaccine? And in my opinion, by analysising stats rather than the accepted narrative and seeing how the focus is today on cases when before it was deaths, I don't think the cure is better at all. In March the debate was Covid vs the Economy. And today it is Covid vs everything in society. We are basically destroying everything to keep hospitals from filling up when to do that all you needed to do was build up capacity and a recruitment drive. Most of the care for Covid victims could be taught very quickly and the more skilled tasks could be done by spreading nurses and doctors from non essential services. I really do hate the idea that we built the Nightingale hospitals in record time and never used them at all. :hmm:


Well, I’m listening to beliefs and no one is explaining anything. Using links and data instead of explaining is just giving someone else’s account. Knowing what the EU is, built around multiculturalism, equality and diversity, is an example of trying to socially engineer society. It’s a bit like saying you believe in the state owning the means and modes of production without mentioning communism. The EU is progressive attracting the political elite of all parties and why Britain got dragged into it.
Collectivism generates wealth? Where are these wealthy countries in the EU? The French and German economies were stagnating before the covid flu arrived. Security from what? Is someone thinking of invading Europe? There are no ‘leading voices’ in a collective. And this is what I mean when referring to beliefs.

There is no science behind covid, there are panic reactions. Every event that occurs is said to be science led and Al Gore’s ice caps melting was exactly the same. The reality says the predictions of millions dead didn’t happen. That’s why the mass protests across Britain and Europe as populations discover it was a hoax. Paper masks protect against airborne germs? Are you sure? Had I said the Nightingale hospitals were a waste of time a few months ago, I’d have been met with the same ‘science led’ nonsense and it’s only later that it begins to dawn.

Same with global warming, climate change, climate extinction or whatever else it’s called. The summers are hot and the winters are cold. Throughout history the earth has warmed and cooled and that’s not going to change, whether Greta, or ‘Mother nature’ or the penguins like it or not. Having said that I do feel sympathy for Greta. This is her mother. Al Gore did it for money, but the whole Thunberg family are fruitcakes!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEYXjSHXUcA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LNAOIV1Wv8

Nothing beats reality. You’ve got people here who still believe Stalin was the gentle father of nations. How long till someone pops up to tell us Hitler is Father Christmas?! I just shake my head at it all. :roll:
#15139305
@Jeremiah Squatpump

It’s is very difficult to respond to someone who basically says source material of data is someone else's belief. You have explained your opinion on what the EU is to you and I have explained why that cannot be the case. When you have a single state that can end legislation like what is happening with the Covid bailout support package, it means that nobody or no nation is able to social engineer anything. It is a union of equals and its format and destiny will depend on what everyone agrees with, not what they don't. But even if you were right and the EU wants to become the next "Soviet Union", it doesn't matter for you now. We are out and that is it. What the EU does or doesn't do is not your concern it is the EUs.

Nonetheless I agree with your notion that the Covid responses are driven by panic rather than stats. I have said the same thing on here myself before now although mask wearing doesn't prevent someone catching the virus, it restricts aerosol particals hense the need for us all to wear them or not at all.

And again, global warming. If there is a rapid trend that before took many thousands of years or a solar event or tilting of the global or a volcano explosion to occur and this trend can be explained with levels of CO2 and the pattern of industrialization, is ignorance really worth the damage we are doing for your children and you childrens children future? The evidence is there. The data is there. It isn't like this is a hunch. But it is whether you accept the data or whether you believe deep state put it there to make us all progressives and wear tampons around our necks.
#15139314
B0ycey wrote:I'm afraid national security should be everyone's concern. And defence doesn't need to imply attack. In fact unburden our dependence of the US and Europe would be very peaceful indeed. We also wouldn't need NATO. Plus Russia doesn't need to be threat to Europe but for some reason it still is. Not because Russia has done anything to us. But because America wants to militarise former Soviet states. Ukraine wasn't an aggression. It was to protect Crimea from US hands. Anyone with any common sense could see that.

As for geopolitics, what I mean is trade and relationships. Not war and control of oil. One thing Europe can learn from China is how to form trade relationships. But again, this relies on Europe being autonomous not a proxy.


Good luck on trying to become non dependent on the USA bullshit. They are very very horrible and bullies on any state government or country trying to get away from their imperialistic militarism. That is why the Crimea was a pawn in their chess board. You like imperialism? I HATE IT. Why? Because you can't pull away and be free to run your own state or society. They force subservience just to survive. That is my nation's situation. And if the UK with its ugly imperialistic past can't get the USA off its back? What hope are there for the rest of the nations sick and tired of all that police like force coming from the USA @B0ycey .

I don't like anything that has to do with force being used to benefit some country that carries the carrot and the stick diplomacy.
#15139325
B0ycey wrote:@Jeremiah Squatpump

It’s is very difficult to respond to someone who basically says source material of data is someone else's belief. You have explained your opinion on what the EU is to you and I have explained why that cannot be the case. When you have a single state that can end legislation like what is happening with the Covid bailout support package, it means that nobody or no nation is able to social engineer anything. It is a union of equals and its format and destiny will depend on what everyone agrees with, not what they don't. But even if you were right and the EU wants to become the next "Soviet Union", it doesn't matter for you now. We are out and that is it. What the EU does or doesn't do is not your concern it is the EUs.

Nonetheless I agree with your notion that the Covid responses are driven by panic rather than stats. I have said the same thing on here myself before now although mask wearing doesn't prevent someone catching the virus, it restricts aerosol particals hense the need for us all to wear them or not at all.

And again, global warming. If there is a rapid trend that before took many thousands of years or a solar event or tilting of the global or a volcano explosion to occur and this trend can be explained with levels of CO2 and the pattern of industrialization, is ignorance really worth the damage we are doing for your children and you childrens children future? The evidence is there. The data is there. It isn't like this is a hunch. But it is whether you accept the data or whether you believe deep state put it there to make us all progressives and wear tampons around our necks.


By saying sources are someone else’s beliefs, I mean that if you use them in place of an explanation that’s what they become. Google is not an encyclopedia and doesn’t necessarily provide facts; it’s a source of information containing the opinions of others. If you use those opinions in place of reality they’re called beliefs. If you use them as information you have to have an explanation to go with them.

I’ve explained what the EU is and that’s my opinion, but I’ve also had former communists explain what it is, what socialists say it isn’t, how it’s run, that multiculturalism hasn’t worked … You’ve told me what you think it is.

A single state can’t end EU legislation. It can disagree, but it has no power to change or make laws. Whilst in the EU Britain had no control over its fishing rights whether it agreed or not. The EU parliament is a talking shop. The law is made by Commissioners and what they’re there for. So whether everyone agrees or not, the collective comes first. Poland for instance refuse to take in Muslim migrants. The EU has now taken it to the European Court. Poland as a nation has no say in it. It’s a bit like joining the RAC, you sign on the dotted line and agree to obey the rules. There are no opt outs for fully fledged members. We are not out yet and it depends on what deal is done whether we remain with one foot inside the door.
What on earth is an ‘aerosol particle’ and what has it to do with the flu?

The time for worrying about anything was the industrialization period, not now. Of course the doomsday is a hunch, it’s predictive. As I said before, we went through all this in the 70s and again under Al Gore. The same ‘facts’, the same ‘evidence’, it’s just a re-run of the same beliefs.
#15139339
B0ycey wrote:
Most of the care for Covid victims could be taught very quickly and the more skilled tasks could be done by spreading nurses and doctors from non essential services. I really do hate the idea that we built the Nightingale hospitals in record time and never used them at all. :hmm:



This happens to be an excellent argument for *communism* -- in the face of any objective-world circumstances that affect us all more-or-less *evenly*, like this coronavirus, we should be *cooperative* (not balkanized) in response, because that's how we were able to out-maneuver all of the rest of *nature* to *begin* with, and to colonize every corner of the globe.
#15139340
Jeremiah Squatpump wrote:We are not out yet

You are.

You've been out for the best part of a year and there is no coming back. You are a 'third country' and we are not obligated to treat you any differently. We don't care that it will literally be a shithole in the toilet of England, Kent, come the 1st of January. We don't care if your fish rot without a market. We don't care if your service industries and JIT manufactories collapse in a heap... We don't care.

We will act in our interest and laugh.


:)

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